A/R in turbo's?

anybody know what the perfect a/r would be to have on a turbo for a newer gsr motor? can anyone tell me what it is?? lol:confused:. i am totally clueless about this compression size housing and all that stuff, no idea what the good sizes are to run on a b18c1... i heard the GT35R was a good turbo, but i prettymuch have no idea what this means. i'm looking for something that's ball bearing for sure.. not more than 1500 american tho as i am attempting to stay on a budget, as well as me being canadian, i gotta pay like a whole bunch more... anyway i'm starting to ramble.. would anyone care to inform me about turbo's?

sure. Just give me some detailed plans of what you're going to do to your engine, and I'll tell you what you'll need. this is what I need to know:
Bore
Stroke
Head type(SOHC/DOHC, valve sizes(4 or 2 valves per cyl?)
RPM range
Compression ratio
rate your intake manifold and exhaust manifold's flow capabilities on a scale of 1-10, since i doubt you have flow numbers. 1 would be poor flowing stock, 10 would be full race. I'll bullshit it from there.
do the same thing for your heads intake and exhaust ports.
Intercooler? What kind(air-water, air-cold water, air-air... and how good is it?)
Water/alky injection?
How much boost?
I'll give you what turbo would work best, my recommendation on specs for a cam, a hp estimate, and what size fuel injectors you need.

A/R is a ratio.

A = area of throat at intake
R = radius of scroll in housing

Basically a smaller A/R ratio makes the turbo spool quicker, but becomes more of an exhaust restriction at higher RPM's, limiting top end power. A larger A/R ratio promotes top end power, at the expense of low-end boost response. A .63 A/R T3 housing gives you a nice mix of spool and top end power for a stock honda, a .48 is too small, and a .82 is too big for most mild motors.

well i'm pretty sure i'm gunna stay safe and not do anything to the bore or stroke, but it'll be on a 96 or 99/00 gsr engine (not sure yet) with gsr heads
probably take the cr to 9.0ish, definitely go with a stainless steel tubular exhaust mani, maybe a new intake mani if it's needed.. as for the ports i've got no clue (suggestions) as for the intercooler, whatever the best is for the best price, so most likely the one in the middle.. if it's crucial i'll go all out, stock injection (just plain 93 octane pump gas) most likely 15 psi.... that's about all i know about the engine, as i am a n00b to engines (i'm only 18) so i'm totally open to any suggestions on setups and such.. looking for 15 psi as a solid number tho.. and a for sure on the pump gas... doing a rebuild tho, so i might be replacing the heads or something... i dunno, it's all so overwhelming :confused:

Alright w/ that 15 psi, have fun blowing your motor. You're gonna have to definatly lower the compression to 9.0 like you said but w/ a stainless steel exhaust manifold, you'll crack that in an instant. Go w/ the cast iron cuz the steel is just welded pipes, it will crack easly unless this is a race application only. You will FOR SURE NEED NEW INJECTORS. You will run way too lean for that much boost, you'll definatly overheat you engine and then bye bye GSR motor. You will definatly need to resleeve your block, get stronger rods and probably some stronger head internals likke valve springs and retainers. Since GSRs have more compression than the LS, you will only be able to run 7-8 psi, at best. If you do anything to the bore or stroke, that is a huge process that requires a lot of work if your gonna turbo also, not the work of a noob. Remember you will still need shit like a wastegate, BOV, intercooler piping, oil lines for the turbo, Id susgest getting a Hondata and not all the FMU shit, its much cleaner and easier to have all the management in one thing. Its a little bit more expensive but you will be thanking me later. You will probabyl need a new fuel pump and regulator if you want 15 psi. Id susgest starting out basic and run just 7 psi then upgrade later and boost the pressure. Replacing the heads wont do much in a rebuild unless they are stronger. Sorry for being so harsh, just that I'm barely 17 and dont consider myself a noob. My turbos goin in this summer once ive gotten all the parts. For a noob, id susgest getting a kit.

air-cold water is going to be pricey, big and complex unless you build it yourself, and it will still take up lots of space and be complex and still cost more than an air-air unit. I built one for drag racing. It is hands down the best style intercooler for drag racing, but it ain't cheap or simple. For a street car, air-air is probably best. Heads - performance heads will definately help make more power. Do GSRs have aluminum heads stock? if they're iron, then aftermarket aluminum heads will help a lot. they allow more boost by dissipating heat much better than iron which prevents detonation.

As for my recommendations/predictions:
can't really help on cam specs too much, since I dont know valve sizes/port flow #'s for the heads... But based on my educated guesses, this is what i recommend:
Intake:
centerline : 110* ATDC
duration @ .050" : 205
valve lift : .442"
Exhaust
centerline : 116* BTDC
duration @ .050" : 210
valve lift : .476"

113* lobe separation, 3.0 advance

I estimate 219 ft/lbs @ 4750rpm, 262hp @ 7250rpm

For a turbo, I'd say a T3 "50" or "60" trim... I'd say a .42/.48 A/R t3 may be a bit small and restrict top end a bit. a .48/.60 would be better. These came stock on the late 80s Ford Thunderbird Turbocoupes, and can be found frequently on ebay. Here is a new one on ebay : http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=33742&item=2467730367

38lb/hr injectors, 40s are more common and would be best bet in case you ever want to increase boost.

Ya this guys talking about boring and stroking his engine and port and polishing it, yet he doesn't know a lot about cars, as we can tell, BTW, i just wanted to say that "modding" cavaliers isn't stupid, i know a kid w/ a sweet ass Z24 2 DOOR, so its a coupe not a sedan, making it not a family sedan. His car is fast as hell and has amazing body work, shaved trunk including the half of the tail lights on the trunk, CF hood, z3 fenders, "drift" spoiler and repainted black by himself

i think what i meant to say was that i'm a n00b to honda engine's.. i've rebuilt the odd 350 small block in my day, but that was a few years ago. as for bore and stroke, i never said i was going to do anything to it, and if you were to read some of my other threads you would realize that i know about most of the internals stuff, especially the pistons/rods business. as for sleeving the block, i've asked the question elsewhere and was told that i definitely didn't need to get it re-sleeved, as people are running 15 psi on stock gsr sleeves with no problems at all. for the fuel system i'm for sure getting new injector's/rails/fuel pump (that should have been a given) as well as the aem ems (bit more pricey than the hondata but it hooks right into the obd II configuration, and has way more options. as for all the extra's on the turbo, eg/ wastegate, bov, all that stuff.. well no sh*t!? it's not like i'm 12 years old. the only thing i'm still kind of in the dark about is the stuff to do with the heads, and what type of *aftermarket* turbo would work best on my *swap*. as for the stainless steel exhaust manifold, i've been told that they are much stronger than the cast iron manifold, and can handle high temperatures much better. just as a side note i have already put about 500 hours of *research* into this turbo/engine swap thing, so i mostly know what i'm doing.. oh and by the way duplox thanks for the help but right now you're speaking jibberish to me, give me a few hundred more hours of research and i'll know what you're talking about :p and as for intercoolers.. know any good places to go to that's relatively close to west coast canada?

cheers

Sorry man, but you were pretty hazzy on your post. Sounded like u were one of those kids who like to name off performance parts like no other yet not know a thing about em or even what they do, they just the names from F&F and 2F2F. but u did say stock injection. Yeah id rather have the AEM unit also, its just like 3 times the price of a hondata. But wow 500 hours, thats a lot, maybe a lil overstreched. Myself, I'm between the Garrett and Turbonetics...I'm leaning towards Garrett because they put more technology into their turbos. Ive heard bad things about GReddy. Heres a great site for info on DIY head port and polishing
http://www.sa-motorsports.com/diyport.htm
With a turbo car, you dont want to port your heads to the fullest unless its a large race application. The polish is more important. If you have a very large port, the air and fuel dont mix well and dont burn well. You'll still get HP gains but not as much as you will a lighter one. That site pretty gives the just of what you want on a turbo application. The cast iron is definatly stronger for a daily driver car, ive talked to a metals expert. On the steel manifold, the tubes are just welded together and aren't as strong as one solid piece of iron. The steel manifold is better if you wont be daily driving the car because it wont heat up as much. Iron is less likely to crack when it is heated up from the exhaust then cooled when the car is off than a steel manifold is. Even look at the prices, cast iron manifolds can run as much as $800 while most steel manifolds are less than $200. THe only thing steel manifold benefits from is equally balanced piping. A good way to find out what your timing should be set at, is dyno tune it. With a stock motor, its no big deal but w/ the turbo you'll want the timing set up but i asume that after 500 hours you know that when you dyno tune it, you'll be able to adjust you cam specs also.

yeah sorry about that post man.. it was like 2 in the morning and i had school the next day so it was a little rushed (no spring break GRRRR) but yeah that site looks like an awesome read, yeah, 500 hours does seem like a lot... but when all you do is come home from school and sit down at the computer for a while.. it adds up quite quickly, as for the cast iron manifold thing, that'll take quite a bit of convincing my friend, cause he was dead set on making me one (works at a machine shop) but i can see where you're coming from with the strength issue.. but are you talking about the actual pipe or where it's welded? yeah, and i must agree that people who watch the f&f movies and come on here and talk like they know what they're saying are WANKERS, but that's a whole different story.. and i'm not going to get started on that. looks like i've got a long few nights ahead of me... i wanna get this turbo issue worked out for when i put my rims on..(saturday) w00t w00t!! lol... yeah i'm stoked.. just had to get that out
although.. i'd rather have done some performance stuff before i got the rims, but if i didn't buy some new rims/tires my baby would be up on blocks when it's time to take off the winters (stupid snow).. yeah i'm rambling.. and it's time for work
cheers

Ya that sounds EXACTLY like me, i come home at 3 and sit on the computer till 10 looking at all kinds of car stuff. Especially i have a friend whos set on helping me make intercooler pipes outta steel and not alunimum cuz steel is stronger, hes a big metals nerd....spends 4 hours a day at school in the metals room doing random shit. I haven't even put my turbo kit in yet, im reading as much as i can and making as many posts as possible to make sure i know exactly what I'm doing.

The cast iron is definatly stronger for a daily driver car, ive talked to a metals expert. On the steel manifold, the tubes are just welded together and aren't as strong as one solid piece of iron. The steel manifold is better if you wont be daily driving the car because it wont heat up as much. Iron is less likely to crack when it is heated up from the exhaust then cooled when the car is off than a steel manifold is. Even look at the prices, cast iron manifolds can run as much as $800 while most steel manifolds are less than $200. THe only thing steel manifold benefits from is equally balanced piping.

For one, a cast manifold is MUCH MUCH more prone to cracking than a well built tubular header. Since you're only making one header for hondas it is still affordable for most people to buy a 321SS header, which pretty much will not crack. The "horror stories" you hear of headers cracking are cheap 304SS or mild steel headers built from thin-wall steel that is MIG welded instead of tig welded. I think you have the prices mixed up here, the highest priced cast manifold on the market for hondas right now are inlinepro's cast manifolds, which are around 480 dollars. A good stainless steel equal length (Only companies I would consider buying from if I were to buy a new manifold would be Full-Race, Lovefab, or Super-T) is going to be around 800-1000 dollars, provides much faster turbo spool and, if you buy a good manifold, they have very good wastegate positioning to practically eliminate boost creep. Go look at drag manifolds, the wastegate only bleeds off exhaust gas from ONE header primary, and that manifold is very prone to boost creep.

http://www.sdsefi.com/techheader.htm

Thats all you need. Show that to your friend, it will be very helpful for him.
Notice this: "This thickness is necessary with non-stainless tubing for longevity at the high temperatures encountered. Standard mild steel header tubing will quickly self destruct if used for a turbo header"

kick ass site duplox, mega props to you man, that's gunna be soooo helpful!! and yeah i was pretty sure the stainless was stronger (properly constructed that is) so you recommend constructing the manifold out of 321 stainless steel boosted? is there anything better than that out there (that's practical of course)
as for you GW, you sound freakishly exactly the same as me
but i'm off to party it up.. happy st. patrick's day guys

http://www.sdsefi.com/techheader.htm

Thats all you need. Show that to your friend, it will be very helpful for him.
Notice this: "This thickness is necessary with non-stainless tubing for longevity at the high temperatures encountered. Standard mild steel header tubing will quickly self destruct if used for a turbo header"

If you're going to build a header like that, you might as well buy a mass-produced cast one. That header doesn't have a merge collector, which right there pretty much nullifies all the benefits from a tubular header.

You know i was thinking about this also today, what if you got one cermaic coated, wouldnt that help it from cracking because the ceramic material will be able to handel a lot of the heat. Cermaic matterial is heated up to 1800° just to make it solid so im sure it will be able to handle the exhaust

http://www.turboslut.net/corkmanifold.jpg
This is from corky bell's book 'maximum boost'.

yeah I think ceramic coating headers helps not only keeping them from cracking but also improves performance. I'm in the midst of an arguement on this on another one of these threads. Join in if ya like.

Oh i know the design is better with the steel, i posted that before. Thats why I've been so torn between the two. Ya your definatly right though those steel ones, like the ones for 180 you see on eBay, are made of the 304 steel mig welded, i went on eBay today and sure enough thats what it said. It also said high grade steel, lol. Today I first learned how to TIG weld from my friend so that will come in handy, maybe I will consider making my own or having him help me. Hes a god when it comes to that, hes made his own bed and entertainment center. Anyways, i think the cermaic coating will help due to its structure and ability to "absorb" head (cant think of the word) What is that book that that page is from?

Ceramic doesnt aborb heat, it reflects it. It is a very very good insulator, so it keeps the heat in the exhaust and not in the header. Thats why you should have it ceramic coated on the inside as well as out.

oh ya good point, but that would create a thinner pipe. Would it still help it not crack?

how would it make it thinner? its a coating that goes on the outside of the metal.

i think he means thinner by the fraction of the inch/cm that the ceramic would decrease the pipe size by... i'm sure it's not big enough difference to make a uh... difference.. lol

ceramic/aluminum coating cant be much more than .01" thick, if that. Probably less than half of that.

yeah that's what i was thinking.. how expensive is it to get done?

If you're going to build a header like that, you might as well buy a mass-produced cast one. That header doesn't have a merge collector, which right there pretty much nullifies all the benefits from a tubular header.

what type of header do you suggest constructing? and how would a merge collector be constructed.. also, where would the wastegate pipe go?

Ya i was wondering that too about the wastegate flange. Would you have to use a turbo with a built in one cuz ive heard that isnt as good as having one built into the piping. Also, isn't there a collector like that \_/ shaped thing that attachs to the 4 main pipes? Couldn't you just kinda drill a whole and weld on a part for the wastegate

yeah, i definitely would NOT go with an internal wastegate, there are too many issues with boost creep and all that ugly stuff to even bother with it.. external wastegate is definitely the way to go. yeah that's what i was thinking, cause you defnintely want the wastegate bleeding off pressure from all 4 parts of the manifold rather than just 1 (some cast iron designs)

Anyways back to that ceramic coating, isnt it like a think coating that would make the diameter of the pipes a lil smaller is what i meant by thinner

awright.. if i were to go with the garrett twin ball bearing turbocharger, would it be better to go with the one with the compressor a/r of .60 and the exhaust with an a/r of .64 or... with the one with the compressor a/r of .70 and exhaust .63?

is it better to have the a/r bigger on the turbine side or compressor side?

is that a t3 variant? If so, you should be able to buy the wheels and housings of any A/R and slap em on, and still have the benefits of ball bearing. The only problem I have with those housings is the exhaust seem a bit too big for me. You'll see more lag than neccesary. Try for a compressor around .65 and exhaust of around .50.
As for external wastegate integration, there is a nice page explaining the best way to do it in Maximum Boost, but my scanner doesnt seem to be working. Here is a crude drawing I did on my comp, but it still gets the point across:
http://www.turboslut.net/wastegateconfig.jpg
and always put the wastegate as close to the turbo as you can - and never on the opposite side of a log type manifold, or on a primary pipe of a tube header. this will make the wastegate vent mainly one cylinder...

ah i see.. so i'd want a turbo with a larger compressor housing than exhaust housing... i getcha.. wouldn't the turbo already come with good internal components tho? as for the drawings.. very helpful indeed.. maybe i should pick up a copy of that book by corky bell so i could stop pestering you guys with all these questions eh?

ok i was looking at some exhaust housings and i'm wondering what the difference is between the letters on the housings... for example on these t04 housings..
http://www.freewebs.com/delerious93integra/exhaust%20a.r%20nop%20pic.JPG
what's the differences in the N, O, and P trims?

i was thinking about going with turbotenics for the turbocharger.. just gotta find the right compressor housing now and figure out how to put the whole thing together and all that...

heh.. sorry to post 3 in a row.. but are you sure that i'd want the exhaust a/r smaller than the compressor a/r?? all the turbo's i've seen out there have much larger exhaust housings... :confused:

Alright, I cannot continue reading this and not post....

First of all delirious, your Integra does not have heads, it has a head....sorry, that was bugging the hell out of me.

Now with that resolved, let's talk turbos. In determining A/R ratios, components needed, etc. you need to do two things: First of all you need to determine what your objective is with the car and second you need to know how much money and time you're willing to invest in the car.

Is your objective to build a daily driven car? What kind of hp do you plan to build (be realistic with that one, of course everyone wants 600 hp, but is that practical?) Do you mind sacrificing creature comforts ie a/c, quiet car.

OK, so now you've got an idea of what you want and what you're willing to spend, now you can look at A/R ratios and what you're going to need to buy and do to your car. If you're planning on building 300 hp (more than enough for a street car) I suggest that you look at the A/R ratios of turbos that are included in kits made for your car. I think you'll find that a 48/63 should be about right. But if you're planning on building 350+ hp, a 48/63 just isn't going to cut it.

Now let's talk about the engine and proper fuel management. You do not need to sleeve a GSR motor until about 350 hp assuming that you are using proper fuel management. You can safely run about 10-11 psi without upgraded rods or pistons as well, there again assuming you're running proper fuel management.

AEM EMS and Hondata are both very good quality units, but neither can be tuned without a comprehensive understanding of how they work. You would need to have either professionaly tuned. There are more entry-level units readily available, but will not include all of the features and cannot be as fine tuned. If you are going to upgrade your injectors (which I highly recommend) you will need something to control them (such as the aem, hodatat, or even the A'pexi SAFC can be used), but cannot be used with an FMU alone.

Anyway, I don't mean to go on forever, but make sure you do your homework first, and decide before hand what you want to do with the car, so as not to waist time or money.

N, O, and P designate the trim of the exhaust wheel, basically how large it is and how much exhaust it can flow. T4 exhaust wheels go alphabetically, N, O, P, Q, R, S. Garrett's new GT-Q and GT-S are the highest flowing wheels (1000+ horsepower with a 76MM compressor), followed by Innovative's R-trim. A T4 exhaust housing is too large for a stock or even mildly modified honda, a stage 5 T3 wheel is solid to around 550 WHP, and after that it's worthwhile to make the swap to a T4 housing.

yeah, i guess most of my other threads got old and kinda disappeared off the first page... but they've got everything i plan to do, but meh, i guess i can say it again.
Ok... planning on finding cheap engine swap with a 97ish b18c1, planning on replaceing (sp?) rods and pistons, doing a port/polish on the head, probably looking to boost around 15 psi, looking for around 300-350ish whp, just so i don't have to sleeve the block (too freaking expensive) definitely getting new injectors (440 cc most likely) and because my car doesn't have ac to start with.. i'm not too worried about adding it in, and as long as the car isn't like MEGA loud i'm cool with it.
as for the money aspect, i was hoping to keep it under 15 k canadian.. is that realistic?
here's the thread where i say approx what i'm looking at.. hope everything is there
http://www.automotiveforums.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=203670

boosted:
so what would be the best trim for me? is the stage 5 T3 really required?

alright dude racerex, i bet delerous knows more than you do on this subject. Just cuz u tune ur car better doesn't mean it isn't gonna blow when u add more psi, its just gonna put more fuel into the cylinders in order to keep a good a/f ratio. Id susgest becoming a lil more new to this forum before u start going off on people. Pretty much everything u just posted was already covered so ur just a post whore

it's alright man.. i can see where he's coming from, but i agree, he should look around a bit before posting

just on a side note.. how do ya like the new rims? :p

alright dude racerex, i bet delerous knows more than you do on this subject. Just cuz u tune ur car better doesn't mean it isn't gonna blow when u add more psi, its just gonna put more fuel into the cylinders in order to keep a good a/f ratio. Id susgest becoming a lil more new to this forum before u start going off on people. Pretty much everything u just posted was already covered so ur just a post whore
Are you serious? There is obviously some sort of threshold amount of boost that when you reach it you're going to blow your motor, but if you don't think proper tuning (this includes ignition timing, not just fuel) will allow you to run on the border of detonation where the most power is made, then you're the one that needs to do your homework.
And if trying to help people out is being a post whore, than so be it, I guess I've whored myself up to 2 now.

alright guys take it easy.. i don't want this turning into some sort of flame fest.. but i don't think borderline detonation is a very good idea for a daily driven car... maybe when you take it out to the track, but not daily driven.

It's cool, I don't mean to sound brash, I just don't appreciate getting flamed on my first post.

Yeah, you don't need to run borderline detonation on the street, but the same principle still applies. Many people have the misconception that rich and retarded is the only safe way to run your motor, but you can do plenty of damage that way too. Just tune for a good a/f with the ignition a few degrees before detonation and you will get the most out of your motor while not damaging any of it's components.

yeah it's cool, i concur