The fix is on?

Looks like Bridgestone (and its teams) think they have found the Michelin advantage and have sucessfully lobbied the FIA to fix things back to their favour.

The FIA are threatening to change their procedure for checking the legality of tyres to knobble Michelin. The details should be on all the major F1 news sites.

To think the bastards had me excited about the championship situation, should have known better :disappoin

But if the tyres are legal then the way of changing the legality shouldn't matter, right? ;)

Come on now Phil, did you think they were going to let a Michelin shod team win the championship?

The real question is, did they really find anything or is it all speculation?

We all know where the loyalties fall when it comes to the F1 governing body.

But if the tyres are legal then the way of changing the legality shouldn't matter, right? ;)

They are not changing the 'legality', they are changing the inspection procedures.
Previously the tyres were examined before the race and before any wear had taken place, now they will be inspected before and after.
The claim is that the Michelin tyres contact patch is increasing as the tyres wear.

Wouldn't it be funny if this backfires on the Bridgestone whiners too.

My point exactly - the legality isn't changed. If the contact patch doesn't expand - nothing to worry about. If it does - mirky waters. Obviously, you won't see me complaining, as Ididn't see you complaining when the FIA spent so much effort on making sure they slow Ferrari down his season.

This threat by the FIA is not just a worry for Michelin but all teams (unless it really is another fix in favour of the chose one of course). When the grooved tyres where first introduced all and sundry expressed their concerns about cars being disqualified after the race for excessive wear. But the FIA assured everybody that they need not worry.

Now they have opened up a can of worms. What if Schumacher wins the next race but one of his tyres wacks a curb, looses pressure and is a bit outside specification after the race? Will the FIA act then...

So why do they choose to use the trump card now? Plenty of times Ron Denis has pointed the finger at Ferrari but the FIA stuck to it's "check the tyre when new" rule. Now Ferrari are on the back foot and the FIA want to put the foot down. Just another in a long line of coincidences. Credibility can only stretch so far!

All it really boils down to is a massive inconvenience for Michelin and their teams. They would have progressed on building tyres of a certain construction and compound for the next few races, now they will have to start again factoring in this potential new inspection. Could give Ferraristone the time they need to catch up.



Damn the busy server, my original reply was much more insightful and witty but got dumped :eek7:

My point exactly - the legality isn't changed. If the contact patch doesn't expand - nothing to worry about. If it does - mirky waters. Obviously, you won't see me complaining, as Ididn't see you complaining when the FIA spent so much effort on making sure they slow Ferrari down his season.

Slow Ferrari down? How did they do that?

Murky waters indeed. Is it that the contact patch expands or simply that the tyre rolls so the shoulder is in contact under cornering load a bit like a motorbike? As usual for Formula One were are speculating knowing none of the facts.

My point exactly - the legality isn't changed. If the contact patch doesn't expand - nothing to worry about. If it does - mirky waters. Obviously, you won't see me complaining, as Ididn't see you complaining when the FIA spent so much effort on making sure they slow Ferrari down his season.

If you are referring to the rule changes that were brought about for the 2003 season Mr. Lamus, then I suggest you go back and check the old threads, I was complaining as loudly as anyone else about them.

I think there is more to the contact area issue than anyone takes into account, as Phil mentioned, bumping a curb can effect the contact patch. What about the cambers some of the teams utilise on some tracks, adjusting the camber changes the contact patch too, does this mean negative camber will no longer be allowed?

The fact that this has come into effect so late in the season is somewhat suspect anyway, don't you think?

Interesting thread.

What a shock. j/k :sly:

Ross Brawn has revealed that Ferrari were responsible for alerting the FIA of their suspicions over Michelin’s tyres.

The technical boss told the Italian press that the team had contacted the sport’s governing body, despite Max Mosley's earlier claim that Ferrari hadn't been the source.

Brawn said Ferrari contacted the FIA after seeing photographs that proved their rivals, Williams and McLaren were using illegal tyres.

He told the Gazzetta dello Sport: "It all started in Budapest when Bridgestone got hold of some photos taken in the paddock by a Japanese.

"They showed in an unequivocal way that the front Michelin tyres had an excessively large tread at the end of the race or after being used.

"We turned to Charlie Whiting who, on the basis of his measurements and the photos, then sent the famous letter.

"We could have pretended to have seen nothing, to not let the FIA know and then lodge a complaint at the following race, but that didn't seem like the right thing to do."

Brawn estimated that the advantage in the wider tread could make a car half a second quicker.

But he fell short of saying that the advantage of the Michein tyres had been enough to explain Ferrari’s recent lack of pace.

He said: "You can't say that. But it's clear that if you take an advantage like that away from the competition you'll find yourself in a better position."

He also said he hoped that Michelin would change their tyres for the next race so Ferrari would not have to make a protest after the Italian GP.

He said: "I hope it does not come to that, that Michelin realise that they have enjoyed an illegal advantage for so long, too long, and that they conform to what the FIA sets out. In any case, it's a problem for the sporting authorities."

It's weird that the Ferrari crew are claiming that a wider tyre makes the car 1/2 a second quicker, yet Bridgestone claim they don't think there is any advantage to wider front tyres which is why they don't use them.

At Bridgestone, no such worries about the front tyres. The Japanese manufacturer is producing front tyres with a tread width of only 220 mm, simply because they believe that a wider tyre offers more drawbacks than advantages.

http://f1.racing-live.com/en/headlines/news/detail/030902135258.shtml

You would think that since Ferrari and Bridgestone are such intimate bed partners, they would make sure they are all saying the same thing, yet if I read the statements from Ferrari and then the comment from Bridgestone, they seem to be saying the opposite.

Also, I can't fathom how, with just a photo, you can say there is no doubt the tyres are illegal?
Unless somebody has actually put something like a tape measure or scale on the tyre and then taken the photo, there is no way you can get an actual size from a photo.

In addition, if the whole debate is about the contact area when cornering, surely if the tyre is 'rolling' so the sidewall to the inside of the corner is in contact with the surface, the same rolling action is causing the opposite shoulder of the tyre to lift away from the pavement.
Do they expect the contact area to be static?
Simple engineering physics tells me that as the load on the tyre changes through the corner, the contact patch of the tyre changes.

Same old Ferrari story. :shakehead We didn't think of it first, we can't make it work so let's cry foul, then deny all knowledge. The sycophantic FIA(T) then bows down (and the other teams and fans bend over).

Ross Brawn's story doesn't even comply with the statements in Charlie Whitings letter. Wonder who is lying there. Given the track record of Brawn it isn't hard to guess.

The line about proving the tyres were illegal is complete bulls#*t. The tyres are only POSSIBLY illegal now that the FIA has changed its inspection procedures. Wonder who requested that? Not much doubt who really makes the rules in F1, hey.

Also complete and utter bollocks is his compassionate stance that he could have lodged a complaint at the next race. Fat lot of good that would have been before the rules were effectively changed wouldn't it?

How much longer can you members of the red brigade deny the hypocrisy and dishonesty of Ferrari? Okay it is nice to back a winner but is that any way to win...

That article of Brawn on F1.racing-live.com is very interesting, however Phil, the reallyinteresting reading takes place near the bottom:

The FIA has threatened to disqualify teams using these tyres at the Italian Grand Prix on September 14. In Hungary 10 days ago, Fernando Alonso's Michelin-shod Renault actually lapped Schumacher's Ferrari -- an almost unheard-of incident in Formula One. FIA president Max Mosley and Whiting, his technical delegate, visited the Ferrari factory in Maranello last week, where they met the president, Luca Di Monteze molo, the sporting director, Jean Todt, Brawn, Schumacher, and various engineers.

Now, is there please someone who can explain me loud and clear what Mosley and Whiting went doing there? Please don't tell me it's because they wanted to hear the story from Ferrari's bosses mouths, since Whiting had his measurements and Brawn the pictures (in digital form, so easily sendable by email), because that would be a weak explanation. They should have gone to Williams and McLaren to verify all those rumours and accusations, no? :dunno:

OK Guys, GNewton has already been reported. :naughty: :loser:

OK Guys, GNewton has already been reported. :naughty: :loser:

Multiple times......let's hope he is gone soon.

First of all Gnewton, piss off. Stipid git, even provided us with your address. Could somebody kindly post him some anthrax, a painful death is too good for his type.

Guido, I'm sure all was innocence and photo opportunities, just a friendly visit by the humble servants of the FIA to their Masters domain. I wonder if any brown paper bags were exchanged, you'd think that could have been handled by electronic transfer too.

Have been thinking about this a bit and looking at it, Michelin's tyres are right on the limit of the maximum tread width when new. Given that the outside of the tread tapers out at an angle, then after normal tyre wear the tread must be wider than 270mm at the end of it's life. Exactly the same as the depth of the groves will be shallower. If Michelin are found to be illegal at the end of the next race then they should protest all the other tyres, since the groove depth will be shallow on all of them. Pay some cutthroat lawyers a few million and we could see all the cars disqualified from the Italian GP after a month or two in the courtroom. Isn't F1 a fantastic sport?

Anyway I'm thinking that while Michelin say they don't have time to produce new tyres for all the teams to race at Monza they may be able to come up with something for just their top two teams. Thanks Ferrari and Bridgestone for forcing the evenhanded competitors to play favourites too.

Another thing, exactly when are the FIA going to specify exactly how they intend to measure the tread after the next race? Not until after they have had a good look at the Chosen One's rubber I suspect...

What did I miss?

Anyway, yesterday morning PD of Michelin said they will be making (or, actually have made) new tyres. So this should be a closed matter now.

Anyone here have a subscription to atlasf1? They should have a photo comparison of Michelin and Bridgestone cornering, and it should be quite interesting, but I haven't seen the photos. Anyone care to nick one? ;)

Still you have to admit that if the contact patch of the tyre expands as the race progresses it gives an unfair advantage (of course, depending on the interpretation of the rules that suits your particular views). As for who proposed to change the measuring procedure - I expect it to be Mr Whiting.

The contact patch doesn't expand Alex, Michelin have simply chosen to use the maximum tread width alowable. Ferraristone chose not to, but didn't want anybody else to either. That is about a simple as it can be put I think.


Charlie hasn't yet proposed a new measuring procedure, at least not one he has told Michelin about. :sly:

The thing is that a wider tyre doesn't suite the F-2003 car, on the contrary, because it is optimised for aerodynamical grip, not mechanical. So wider tyres have an opposite effect on the F-2003 and that is the Bridgy-boys are saying there is not advantage in that. However, they are now about to find out that putting all their eggs in the Ferrari nest can be benificial, but can be contraproductive as well. Michelin took a more open-view approach to things and worked with different top-teams thus developping a better tyre. And sure Ferrari and Bridgestone are not liking this and it is also common knowledge in F1 that when the leaders are under thread the first thing that they do is, instead of raising their game, start looking at the opposition to find illegal stuff and make a complaint about it. And if you look long enough you'll sure find something to complain about.

Anyway, I will laugh my butt off if Ferrari is not going to win in Monza, not during the race and not in front of a court. That would make my day. :evillol:

The thing is that a wider tyre doesn't suite the F-2003 car, on the contrary, because it is optimised for aerodynamical grip, not mechanical. So wider tyres have an opposite effect on the F-2003 and that is the Bridgy-boys are saying there is not advantage in that. However, they are now about to find out that putting all their eggs in the Ferrari nest can be benificial, but can be contraproductive as well. Michelin took a more open-view approach to things and worked with different top-teams thus developping a better tyre. And sure Ferrari and Bridgestone are not liking this and it is also common knowledge in F1 that when the leaders are under thread the first thing that they do is, instead of raising their game, start looking at the opposition to find illegal stuff and make a complaint about it. And if you look long enough you'll sure find something to complain about.

Anyway, I will laugh my butt off if Ferrari is not going to win in Monza, not during the race and not in front of a court. That would make my day. :evillol:

So true, but I don't think anything will change because after changing the rules to stop Ferrari domination, it would only put egg on the face of the FIA if they try to level the field at this stage or do anything that may make things better for Ferrari. They are having it the way they want it, a close points battle late in the season, and Ferrari struggling.

All the news reporters are writing stories about how great things are with the new rules and only a small mention of the tyre advantage of Michelin. Ticket sales are still down, and if Ferrari were to win the c'ship after tyre inspection procedures are changed due to Ferrari challenging Michelin, it would spell disaster.

Ferrari and B'stone have made their bed and they need to shut up and race.

The FIA need to sort and decide how their rules are to be enforced before crap like this comes up, and be monitored appropriatley during the course of the season so they have already studied the situation. This way when there is a challenge by a team, the answer is already at hand. Of course we know the FIA have no forsight.

Well, Phil, if it doesn't expand as the race progresses, what's to worry about? If it's within 270 mm at the beginning of the race as well as at the end of the race (I'd love to watch the stewards measure the contact patch while the car is moving :D), then why change it. But Yasukawa says he has proof that the Michelin tyres at the end of the race had a contact patch of 286 mm. That is 16 mm, Phil. And that is a lot. And it is also cheating as far as I'm concerned. At least they've been given 3 weeks to remedy the situation.

All these conspiracy theories…. Ferrari get the stick while the fraudsters complain... Incredible… reminds me of what often happens here in the uk... a burglar breaks into your house then (successfully) sues you for falling over something in the dark and breaking his leg...

It's crazy. Ferrari made a valid complaint, and you can bet your ass any of the other teams would make it if they were in the same position. Laughable really. Do you think Ron Dennis has never tried to pin anything on Ferrari? 16mm is a big advantage and the cheats should be punished. Simple as pie

Michelin has already manufactured a new tyre, that would seem an admission of guilt. It pisses me off that the FIA has let it come to this point, and like they need the controversy.

Yasukawa says he has proof that the Michelin tyres at the end of the race had a contact patch of 286 mm. That is 16 mm, Phil.

And Michelin say the difference is a couple of mm. Both sides have vested interests so I guess the truth is somewhere in the middle. Maybe one day we'll know the truth - but I doubt it.

All these conspiracy theories…. Ferrari get the stick while the fraudsters complain... Incredible… reminds me of what often happens here in the uk... a burglar breaks into your house then (successfully) sues you for falling over something in the dark and breaking his leg...

It's crazy. Ferrari made a valid complaint, and you can bet your ass any of the other teams would make it if they were in the same position. Laughable really. Do you think Ron Dennis has never tried to pin anything on Ferrari? 16mm is a big advantage and the cheats should be punished. Simple as pie

Sure all the teams protest whenever they feel the need. The difference is Ferrari always seem to get their way. Nothing new here, it is a part of F1 history. I wonder why it was initially denied Ferrari made the protest though?

Although Ferrari’s current clam to contest the results of all the seasons races is getting a bit far fetched. Would be good if they carry through, then maybe we'll find out what went on earlier in the year with Bridgestone’s rumoured dual compound tyres. But once again I doubt it.

Michelin has already manufactured a new tyre, that would seem an admission of guilt. It pisses me off that the FIA has let it come to this point, and like they need the controversy.

Not an admission at all, simply a pragmatic response to leave a tolerance for the new interpretation of the rules. Funny thing is, Monza is the track where a narrower tyre would be of most benefit. Ferrari could have done the Michelin teams a favour...

Michelin has already manufactured a new tyre, that would seem an admission of guilt. It pisses me off that the FIA has let it come to this point, and like they need the controversy.
It’s by all means a sh*tty thing to happen at this stage of the season, but if the issue has just been discovered theres nothing the FIA could have done

Sure all the teams protest whenever they feel the need. The difference is Ferrari always seem to get their way. Nothing new here, it is a part of F1 history. I wonder why it was initially denied Ferrari made the protest though?

Although Ferrari’s current clam to contest the results of all the seasons races is getting a bit far fetched. Would be good if they carry through, then maybe we'll find out what went on earlier in the year with Bridgestone’s rumoured dual compound tyres. But once again I doubt it.

They didn’t immediately disclose to having made the protest because it doesn’t reflect well on them. That shouldn’t be the case, because they’ve done nothing wrong, but that’s human nature. We see someone who’s been leader for a while making a complaint about their closest competitor when the gap is narrowing, and, before we know whether the complaint is valid or not, those fed up of the leader’s dominance jump to conclusions and say “oh look at X, as soon as Y is threatening, X tries to pin something on them. How sleazy”. It’s irrational, and unfair. Ferrari have every right to question the Mich teams, and the latter are the ones who should be the accused. If the tyres are illegal, they should take the flak. If Ferrari suspect Mich tyres have been illegal for some time they also have every right to contest results. Its not pretty, granted, in fact its as far from pretty as it gets, and it may not be true, but they have every right to delve. If you find out your competitor’s had an unfair advantage you’re gonna wanna know how long that’s been the case. Like I said before, with the championship at stake, you can bet your ass RD or FW would do it.

If you find out your competitor’s had an unfair advantage you’re gonna wanna know how long that’s been the case. Like I said before, with the championship at stake, you can bet your ass RD or FW would do it.

Kind of like the whole launch control and traction control debates from before when it was legalised, right?
Wait a second, what am I saying, it didn't pay the FIA to do anything about that one.

Kind of like the whole launch control and traction control debates from before when it was legalised, right?
Wait a second, what am I saying, it didn't pay the FIA to do anything about that one.

It's much easier to measure a tyre than it is to figure out everybody's electronic gizmo's, that's why they have given in to traction control being legal. It wasn't legal in 2000 and my friends and I could clearly hear McLaren's engine cut out when it was exiting the S curves at Indy.

They didn’t immediately disclose to having made the protest because it doesn’t reflect well on them. That shouldn’t be the case, because they’ve done nothing wrong, but that’s human nature. We see someone who’s been leader for a while making a complaint about their closest competitor when the gap is narrowing, and, before we know whether the complaint is valid or not, those fed up of the leader’s dominance jump to conclusions and say “oh look at X, as soon as Y is threatening, X tries to pin something on them. How sleazy”. It’s irrational, and unfair. Ferrari have every right to question the Mich teams, and the latter are the ones who should be the accused. If the tyres are illegal, they should take the flak. If Ferrari suspect Mich tyres have been illegal for some time they also have every right to contest results. Its not pretty, granted, in fact its as far from pretty as it gets, and it may not be true, but they have every right to delve. If you find out your competitor’s had an unfair advantage you’re gonna wanna know how long that’s been the case. Like I said before, with the championship at stake, you can bet your ass RD or FW would do it.

Absolutely it is fair enough for Ferrari to ask the question if something underhanded is going on. The FIA should have told them to bugger off just as they do whenever Ron or Sir Frank ask the question. Never happens in quite the same way though does it?


Regardless, none of that gives Ross Brawn the right to come out with the ridiculous statements he has. That outburst coupled with Luca's thinly veiled threats makes it all look like a Ferrari PR campaign. To discredit their competitors and save them from a savaging by the Italian media should they lose the championships this year?

Nothing to do with racing IMHO.

It's much easier to measure a tyre than it is to figure out everybody's electronic gizmo's, that's why they have given in to traction control being legal. It wasn't legal in 2000 and my friends and I could clearly hear McLaren's engine cut out when it was exiting the S curves at Indy.

And their were just as many fingers pointed at Ferrari for the same thing, including by other drivers like Heinz-Harald Frentzen. The FIA chose to turn a blind eye then. Ferrari never asked for a clarification it would appear :cwm27:

And their were just as many fingers pointed at Ferrari for the same thing, including by other drivers like Heinz-Harald Frentzen. The FIA chose to turn a blind eye then. Ferrari never asked for a clarification it would appear :cwm27:

I'm not defending Ferrari, or slamming McLaren, in my mind traction control never went away, it was just better hidden. Another case where the FIA allowed something they never had control of, they spend a lot of time trying to put the toothpaste back in the tube don't they?

I also remember, I think around 1993, there was a camera mounted on the side of the nose on a McLaren(again not picking on them, they were the only one with a camera mounted there.) The rules disallowed any movable aerodynamic devices, yet when up to speed the main winglets on the front wing would flex back due to force of the air, reducing downforce which allowed for more speed. In turn when the car slowed the winglet would raise back up increasing low speed downforce. Had the camera not been there nobody would have ever suspected such a thing.

But again, the tyres could have easily been measured before and after, or just after race like the wooden planks are.

And their were just as many fingers pointed at Ferrari for the same thing, including by other drivers like Heinz-Harald Frentzen.

Phil, do you have selective memory or something? I will absolutely have to ask you to remind us all just what Frentzen said.

I'm not defending Ferrari, or slamming McLaren, in my mind traction control never went away, it was just better hidden. Another case where the FIA allowed something they never had control of, they spend a lot of time trying to put the toothpaste back in the tube don't they?

I also remember, I think around 1993, there was a camera mounted on the side of the nose on a McLaren(again not picking on them, they were the only one with a camera mounted there.) The rules disallowed any movable aerodynamic devices, yet when up to speed the main winglets on the front wing would flex back due to force of the air, reducing downforce which allowed for more speed. In turn when the car slowed the winglet would raise back up increasing low speed downforce. Had the camera not been there nobody would have ever suspected such a thing.

But again, the tyres could have easily been measured before and after, or just after race like the wooden planks are.

Then there was the time, in early 1994 one of the Ferrari test drivers was being interviewed, Larini or Badoer I think. He casualy mentioned something about switching the traction control on :lol: Ooops!! That was supposed to be banned for 1994 :grinno: Also the 1994 Benetton launch control that could be selected by a complex series of paddle movements and hidden menus. Brawn swore blind they never actually used it of course!

The idea of flexing and "how rigid is rigid" has always been a big sticking point in F1. It was only a couple of years ago that the issue was finaly (?) put to rest by the FIA introducing tests with weights after some teams took things to extremes and there was a spate of wing failures. Sauber and BAR I were two of the main ones IIRC.

Phil, do you have selective memory or something? I will absolutely have to ask you to remind us all just what Frentzen said.

Selective? That sounds like an insult! As you wish, after a bit of a search this is what Frentzen said after the 2001 Australian GP. I thought it was pretty funny at the time, all water under the bridge now.

"One thing was remarkable. Out of tight corners these cars had a pretty stunning acceleration, combined with a misfiring engine. For me it is beyond doubt that somehow Ferrari managed to develop an engine software which reduces the power by a certain margin to the extent that the driven wheels don't spin," Frentzen stated. "It cannot be ignored that something like that exists, there is simply no room for discussion about that. On the other hand, however, you can discuss if the device that exists is legal or illegal. I believe that F1 has progressed into an area which is hard to be defined by the FIA."

“Heidfeld was the next car ahead and even though I managed to catch him quite quickly, I knew passing him would be another matter. I don't know if traction control comes as a factory option with Ferrari engines, but every time I got close in a slower corner he would pull away under acceleration, which was strange as I could hear the engine misfiring!"

Links to F1 racing. He had a long diatribe on his website when it happened but that seems to be long gone.

http://f1.racing-live.com/en/headlines/news/detail/010309012936.shtml

http://f1.racing-live.com/en/headlines/news/detail/010315084817.shtml

OK, since it was so easy to find those quotes for you, maybe you'll also be able to find what he said in, probably, his very next interview when the press and Ferrari critics in general uumped to conclusions about his words? Oh, and while you're at it, you could also tell us if Benetton was the only team in whose software launch or traction control was found in 94 ;)

Then there was the time, in early 1994 one of the Ferrari test drivers was being interviewed, Larini or Badoer I think. He casualy mentioned something about switching the traction control on Ooops!! That was supposed to be banned for 1994 Also the 1994 Benetton launch control that could be selected by a complex series of paddle movements and hidden menus. Brawn swore blind they never actually used it of course!

I remember that one! :lol: I think it was Larini.

OK, since it was so easy to find those quotes for you, maybe you'll also be able to find what he said in, probably, his very next interview when the press and Ferrari critics in general uumped to conclusions about his words? Oh, and while you're at it, you could also tell us if Benetton was the only team in whose software launch or traction control was found in 94 ;)

Are you implying Heinz-Harald would give in and buckle under the pressure? Fall in a heap and cry like a little girl because he dared question the truth honour and integrity of... oh hell I can't keep that up... :lol: As one of the links shows Schumcher very intelligently called his comments "stupid" and that was about it. Are you suggesting Heinz backed down and admitted he was telling fibs? :screwy:

I'm sure your kidding - get off your but and find your own quotes!! :tongue:

Also, you know full well McLaren had old routines left in their code in '94 as well. No evidence it was still able to be activated like Benneton and (apparently) Ferrari were. Anyway the MP4/9 was a dog compared to the MP4/8, if an old pro like Ron was cheating he'd have won a few more races don't cha think?

Just to get back on topic I see Gascoyne has been quoted as saying the "new" Michelins used at the Monza test are better than the old ones :eek:

Hey, I have the quotes you rather conveniently missed out quite ready, I was just giving you a chance to retract your statement that Frentzen pointed out that Ferrari were using illegal traction control in 2001. But since you decided not to - here you go:


Q: You've made some quite controversial comments about following Nick Heidfeld's Sauber in Australia. Can you tell us some more about that? What were your reasons? Can you clarify the situation?

Frentzen: Yes, it depends what you want to know: from the beginning, or just this case. I had somebody to write about Formula One on my home page, and I explained a lot of things, if somebody's calling my home page. The item of traction control in Formula One is not a new item, it has not been issued after Melbourne, it's always a discussion. But I have to say a general discussion. After Melbourne there was some misunderstanding about my quotes, that I was saying that the Ferrari engines, no matter which driver, are running illegal traction control. This issue, you can never find it in my words, in my home page or any interview, and I only said, when I was asked about that, I said, well, they have something that helps them to come better out of the corner, but it is a legal traction control. And when people asked me, do you think it's illegal, I said I can't answer that question because the FIA has all the data about traction control, and whether it's illegal or not. But also we have the answer of Max Mosley, saying that there are teams running a system in Formula One which reduces wheelspin. It's a system which is not working together with wheelspin sensors. It's a normal, legal system: they predict that wheelspin can happen, and you can program this in the software, but it's not illegal, and I was talking about this system, just to clarify it, that this is the system I was talking about, not illegal traction control. But there are some people who just simply ignored this item, and said,Heinz-Harald said Ferrari was using illegal traction control. So I clarified it again on my home page and obviously there's a lot of people a bit upset about it. But just listen to my quotes, make a one-to-one interview, or write properly about my home page. That's all I can say.


So do you feel you fall under that category of people who "just simply ignored this item, and said,Heinz-Harald said Ferrari was using illegal traction control"?

Glad you remember that McLaren also had that software, still kinda funny you didn't mention it earlier... ;)

Oh, and if the legal tyres are faster than the old ones - good for Michelin!

Oh good grief Alex, there is nothing new added in that second quote! Just trying to explain simple english to hack jounalists. He made the same reference in the original quote when he said "On the other hand, however, you can discuss if the device that exists is legal or illegal. I believe that F1 has progressed into an area which is hard to be defined by the FIA." In other words this is what is going on, I can't tell you if it is legal or not. Traction control - yes, illegal - I don't know. No back down, although it sounds like Max may have had a chat to him :sly:

It was an accepted fact that some teams were getting around the rules. Remember it is the FIA we're dealing with, not exactly the brightest bunch of people on the face of the earth - that they seem to be Ferrari fans clinches that :lol:

Glad you found my McLaren "omission" funny. Perhaps in your next post you'd like to list every singe misdememour, innocent or otherwise by every team in the entire history of F1? Oh don't think all that would be relevant to the discussion? Bingo!

If you ask me a test driver spilling the beans, or performance enhancing functions hidden like cheat codes and easter eggs is a lot funnier that old, inactive ones and zeros left in code written for a completely different engine.

If you ask me a test driver spilling the beans, or performance enhancing functions hidden like cheat codes and easter eggs is a lot funnier that old, inactive ones and zeros left in code written for a completely different engine.

I cannot agree more!

Oh good grief Alex, there is nothing new added in that second quote!

Well, obviously, there is, as you used Frentzen's words as an example of a finger pointing at Ferrari using illegal traction control in 2001.

Well, obviously, there is, as you used Frentzen's words as an example of a finger pointing at Ferrari using illegal traction control in 2001.

It is one of those spirit versus the letter of the law things. Remember the environment that this occurred in was shortly after Max came out with his "one team cheated last year but we can't name them" nonsense. Heinz apparently though there was something not quite right going on, and I suppose did go out of his way to soften his view in the second quote.

In any regard I raised the issue as a response to Veyron saying the McLaren had a misfire at a race he attended - well guess what, Ferrari did too. :p Both were possibly a form of traction control. Were they legal? I don't know. Neither did the FIA apparently hence their reintroduction of previously banned driver aids. Tantamount to an admission of failure in policing the software on their part.

Mclaren proved they hadn't been using launch control previous to that by completely stuffing their 2001 season with numerous startline stalls after the aids were reintroduced.

All this talk of traction control makes me wonder about the current tyre situation. With the traction control issue none of the teams ever protested - perhaps because they were all using the same loophole? It was better for them to continue to develop their techniques to gain an advantage within the fine print.

This time, rather that seeing what Michelin were doing and trying the same thing Ferrari blew the whistle. Why? Maybe they have nothing to gain by copying Michelin's wide tyres because they don't really know why the French tyres are so fast. Bridgestone have tested wider tyres and they don't work for Ferrari. Are Ferraristone flummoxed technically? From that supposition it is easy jump to the conclusion (yeah I use that phrase deliberately) that this whole sordid affair is a PR exercise by Ferrari to tarnish their rivals in case they lose the championship.

Would it look bad for business and big paypackets to lose now or are they just scared of the Italian media?

Didn't the FIA find illegal traction control in M. Schumacher's Benetton at the end of the 1994 season? They couldn't bust him because there was no proof he actually used it. His TC was so illegal, it was inbedded deep in his computer and could only be actuated through a series of top secret paddle shifts. :headshake

I got nothing against Ferrari complaining about the Michelin tyre, specially when it's logic, if the tread width is already at the limit at the start, it could only increase even a few mm as the sidewall are not straight and as the tyre wear off. The rule says the tread width has to be 270mm but it also said it will only be mesured before the race, it's only a case of finding holes within the rules.
There was a similar claim from Bridgestone when Michelin tried to introduce non symetrical grooves (one side with an angle), which had an external width complying with the rule and as nothing was specified about the shape of the groove... Surrely the groove will have decrease in width while the tyre weared off, increasing the rolling band but still, it wasn't "illegal".
I'm more concern about the time of the complain. They waited 13 GPs before complaining... Come on!!! with all the industrial spying going on they didn't realise this before... just when the opposition is really catching on?

I'm more concern about the time of the complain. They waited 13 GPs before complaining... Come on!!! with all the industrial spying going on they didn't realise this before... just when the opposition is really catching on?

As you can probably imagine getting their hands on a Michelin tyre after a race isn’t exactly an easy thing to do. They didn’t “wait” at all, they only just found out.

As you can probably imagine getting their hands on a Michelin tyre after a race isn’t exactly an easy thing to do. They didn’t “wait” at all, they only just found out.
Yes but they knew the Michelin tyre was larger than theirs so nearer of the limit and therefore potencially being over the 270mm limit after a race, so why not pulling the alarm before? Ferrari is not saying that the Michelin tyres are over 270 after the race but that regarding their width before the race, they could be over it after as they wearing off.

Well, they say they waited because they (Bridgestone) only got conclusive proof after Hungary. And also it hurts the most. Normal practice in F1 - McLaren waited a few races in 99 before protesting the barge boards after Malaysia.

Didn't the FIA find illegal traction control in M. Schumacher's Benetton at the end of the 1994 season? They couldn't bust him because there was no proof he actually used it. His TC was so illegal, it was inbedded deep in his computer and could only be actuated through a series of top secret paddle shifts.

Duh! Read the thread, it's been discussed.

Well, they say they waited because they (Bridgestone) only got conclusive proof after Hungary. And also it hurts the most. Normal practice in F1 - McLaren waited a few races in 99 before protesting the barge boards after Malaysia.
Exactly. I'm just pissed off by the way they do it and moreover in a brillant and exiting season where F1 was back on track.

I would not be surprised if both companies have rigiourus (sp) counter industrial intelligence measures. I can think of quite a few things they can do to stop the opposition finding all their secrets out. So therefore its not unusual for them to have just found out.

I would not be surprised if both companies have rigiourus (sp) counter industrial intelligence measures. I can think of quite a few things they can do to stop the opposition finding all their secrets out. So therefore its not unusual for them to have just found out.
That remind me an article (in Car magazine I think) where they were describing and pricing several element of a Jordan. The journalist was commenting on one of the picture of the engine and was saying that one of Honda's engineer had to check every shoot. Briefly nothing seen should give any idea of scale, or as they were pointing out, the opposition could scale up what was seen and calculate approximately what would be the engine size and power.

As you can probably imagine getting their hands on a Michelin tyre after a race isn’t exactly an easy thing to do. They didn’t “wait” at all, they only just found out.

Funny how they were able to find out about McLaren's "break steer" so quickly then. Difference being they were losing at the time?

McLaren and Williams held a meeting with FIA complaining that Michelin have done a good job making the 'new' tyre but "the changes in set-up we have had to make, toe-in, camber and tyre pressures have not worked to our advantage".

Well boo hoo! You guys are two of the most experienced teams in the business, figure it out and stop the whigning! What about the advantage they had the whole freaking season with illegal tyres!
:banghead: :screwy:

Well... Willams seem to be really confident in the new tyres and Mc Laren is working hard to make it work. I'll suppose we all get fixed this sunday. The question now is will Ferrari put a claim to the FIA for the previous GPs and will they wait sunday's results?

I am certain the teams will figure it out with the new tyres, they should be able since, as Brian said, they are some of the most experienced teams.

As to the debate over the previously run GP's for this season, technically the tyres passed inspection at those races so I don't understand how the FIA can go back on the decision.

If they can change the decision on previous GP's, they can go back seasons and use confessions to infractions made since and rework the points system, just to be petty about it.

Michelin and the teams involved are currently arguing that Article 77c of the FIA Sporting Regulations which states that "the tread width of the front tires must not exceed 270mm" suggests that this is only applied when the tires are new.

Unfortunately this argument is defeated by an article in the Formula 1 Technical Regulations (Article 2.4) which states that automobiles "must comply with these regulations in their entirety at all times during an event". The tires are included in the definition of the word automobile.

Furthermore, Article 2.4 goes on to state that "should a competitor feel that any aspect of these regulations is unclear, clarification may be sought from the FIA Formula 1 Technical Department" which, in effect, means that if there is any doubt over the rules the FIA should have been made aware of it.

I don't even see a loophole here, Michelin were either outright cheating or made a gross error in this case. I hope it doesn't happen, but to me the door is wide open to at least protest the whole season. I don't even understand how these particular rules could be misinterpreted by teams or the FIA.

Brian, what you say makes perfect sense and whereas there is the doubt about the legality of the tyres over the first part of the season, how does anyone prove that the tyres were indeed at an time illegal over the course of the period in question?

Since I personally don't see how the FIA can prove the tyres over the complete season are/were illegal and Michelin certainly are not going to say anything to prove otherwise, how can they act against the Michelin shod teams?

Obviously, for as long as we are all around, there will now be a shadow of doubt over this season about the Michelin tyres, but is that any different to the other seasons where things have come to question like illegal driver aids and the like?

I agree, Ray. It leaves us once again saying, "Maybe next season will be different", but 'next season' never comes. Again I hope the whole season isn't contested, but I have a feeling some old tyres can be found if it is pressed, although I don't know what is done with used tyres in F1. Do the makers immediatley recycle, or do the teams have to deal with what is used?