The fix is on?

I agree, Ray. It leaves us once again saying, "Maybe next season will be different", but 'next season' never comes. Again I hope the whole season isn't contested, but I have a feeling some old tyres can be found if it is pressed, although I don't know what is done with used tyres in F1. Do the makers immediatley recycle, or do the teams have to deal with what is used?

You have to keep in mind that the likes of Mclaren, Williams and Ferrari never actually own the tyres, through their sponsorship deals Michelin and Bridgestone supply the tyres at the race.
In the lights of this, I very much doubt the teams would have to deal with the worn tyres, they most likely go back to the respective manufacturers for examination and post race analysis to get info on tyre performance and wear.

After that, they likely do get destroyed, I can't see them storing them, except maybe ones that show exceptionally good wear patterns or the like which they may want to keep for further analysis.

All speculation obviously as we don't know what happens to them or where they go.

Then again, considering I know a couple of people that have old race tyres in their possession, I am sure if the FIA wanted they could find more than enough samples from this season for examination too.

Hi all

I happened strayed here and there and I am happy to find this place, cause there seems to be much knoledge about things here.

I think the article 77c exludes 2.4, if not all tyres would be illegal after race, because the grooves must be at least 2.5mm deep. So because the max tread width is included in 77c, which excludes the 2.4, it is natural to assume that tread needs to be narrower than 270 mm only when new.

It is always not so easy to get clarification of the rules. Michelin has asked futher clarification of the 77c several times during two last year. Their main concern has been the depth of the grooves after race. So maybe some are more equal than others.

I think FIA has done sloppy work with rules once again.

At least there should be known procedure for handling complaints and rule changes and clarifications.

77
c) Each front dry-weather tyre, when new, must incorporate 4 grooves which are:
- arranged symmetrically about the centre of the tyre tread;
- at least 14mm wide at the contact surface and which taper uniformly to a minimum of 10mm at the lower surface;
- at least 2.5mm deep across the whole lower surface;
- 50mm (+/- 1.0mm) between centres.
Furthermore, the tread width of the front tyres must not exceed 270mm.

*** Edit Forgot to paste the clarification text to c and d ****

The measurements referred to in c) and d) above will be taken when the tyre is fitted to a wheel and inflated to 1.4 bar.





Michelin and the teams involved are currently arguing that Article 77c of the FIA Sporting Regulations which states that "the tread width of the front tires must not exceed 270mm" suggests that this is only applied when the tires are new.

Unfortunately this argument is defeated by an article in the Formula 1 Technical Regulations (Article 2.4) which states that automobiles "must comply with these regulations in their entirety at all times during an event". The tires are included in the definition of the word automobile.

Furthermore, Article 2.4 goes on to state that "should a competitor feel that any aspect of these regulations is unclear, clarification may be sought from the FIA Formula 1 Technical Department" which, in effect, means that if there is any doubt over the rules the FIA should have been made aware of it.

I don't even see a loophole here, Michelin were either outright cheating or made a gross error in this case. I hope it doesn't happen, but to me the door is wide open to at least protest the whole season. I don't even understand how these particular rules could be misinterpreted by teams or the FIA.

Today on F1live.com there is a statement from Michelins boss, saying that Michelin tyres have been declared legal by the FIA and that the matter for there part is closed.

So end of story and probably a storm in a cup of water.

Anyone find anything more on this other than this little paragraph from F1 Live?

As for the recent debate about tyre tread widths, we are happy to see that the FIA clarified the issue in its most recent statement by confirming the legality of our tyres and considers the matter closed. For us, our stance on the interpretation of rule 77c has not changed.


I feel like he is refering to the new narrower tyre, huudo. :confused:

Today on F1live.com there is a statement from Michelins boss, saying that Michelin tyres have been declared legal by the FIA and that the matter for there part is closed.

So end of story and probably a storm in a cup of water.

Surely you mean that the new tyres that were tested in Monza were declared legal? Because that's what the FIA said. There was no comment on the legality of the old Michelins from the FIA.

According to bridgestone the michelins got 16 mm wider. So huge difference can't be explained by widening of the tyre in those 2.5 mm, which are allowed to wear away. So the side wall of the tyre must bend so that part of it touches track in some circumstances in high g curves.
That would seen as marks on side wall but not in measurements if they are executed by the way the rules are set now.

The measurements referred to in c) and d) above will be taken when the tyre is fitted to a wheel and inflated to 1.4 bar.

So if my speculation is true then bridgestone tries to convince FIA that the tread should be measured from the widest possible mark from left to right.

Michelin has spoken few mm widening, which might be true because of wearing and stress.


Oh there was rule for changing tyre rules and that is the reason why FIA are claiming that this case is not rule change even if it is.

77f
f) Tyre specifications will be determined by the FIA no later than 1 September of the previous season.
Once determined in this way, the specification of the tyres will not be changed during the Championship season without the agreement of the Formula One Commission.

Surely you mean that the new tyres that were tested in Monza were declared legal? Because that's what the FIA said. There was no comment on the legality of the old Michelins from the FIA.

Alex, do you seriously think that FIA is going to take action against all Michelin teams on the previous race results? I thought Ferrari only complained about a possible infringment of the regulations after the Hungarian GP, because they thought the Michelin tyres were too wide and the FIA investigated it, heared all parties and Michelin presented "a" tyre after Monza testing to the FIA - regardless newly manufactured or not - and the FIA have said, if you use this tyre that you present us today, OK that's a legal one.

However!! Jean Todd stated that "as far as he is concerned" all team could be disqualified who have used these "illegal" tyres in the past. That statement however is - by no means whatsoever - an official complaint from Ferrari. So I think that even on this board, everything has been blown way out of proportion, just like the media did in the 3 weeks non-racing silence. They need to write about something right?

Anyway, we should let it rest here and they should fight it out on the track and may the best win, even if it's Ferrari, but all will have to prove it that they're the best and I'm sure Michelins tyres are going to be scruteneered with even more vigor then ever before. It's up to them now.

No, I don't think the FIA will take action as far as disqualifying previous race results goes, but for the wrong reason - political rather than legal. Besides, there was no official complaint about the tyres, afaik, just a request for clarification. If someone does lodge an oficial complaint - not sure the FIA will have any choice but investigate and take appropriate action.

It has been blown out of proportion? No, not sure about that. It was Michelin whigning and the fans of the respective teams (some fans) accusing Ferrari of all the possible sins forgetting the fact that their teams were, simply put, cheating - that's what's sad about this. But I'm fine with the way it is now as long as those Michelins pass the scrutineering at the end of the remaining races.

It was Michelin whigning and the fans of the respective teams (some fans) accusing Ferrari of all the possible sins forgetting the fact that their teams were, simply put, cheating - that's what's sad about this. But I'm fine with the way it is now as long as those Michelins pass the scrutineering at the end of the remaining races.

Seeing the world through red-tinted glasses again Alex?

It was Ferrari whinging that sparked all the other whinging.... :redface:

I'm not saying anyone is right in the whole escapade, so why don't we just be mature about it and let the matter die, the FIA has resolved the issue with the manufacturers, what more needs to be said?

How is pointing out to the governing body of the sport that the competitors are cheating whigning? :confused: No, Ray, what started it all was Michelin providing illegal tyres and teams using them.

And as I said, as long as Michelins are now within the rules at the end of the remaining races, I'm ok with it.

How is pointing out to the governing body of the sport that the competitors are cheating whigning? :confused: No, Ray, what started it all was Michelin providing illegal tyres and teams using them.

And as I said, as long as Michelins are now within the rules at the end of the remaining races, I'm ok with it.

Lets get one thing straight. Michelin were never cheating. They were operating within the rules. Using a loophole maybe, cheating no. If they were they would have been disqualified. Now the rules have (effectively) changed so Michelin had to change too.

Do you think Ferrari would have made such a big song and dance about this alleged irregularity if they had been winning? Given that the tyres in question have been that wide since the middle of last year I reckon not. Ferrari aren't whinging either, they are engaging in a mud slinging campaign, and at the same time disrupting their competitors development. Very clever from a political point of view.

As to who is cheating, the FIA is! And all of us are whinging in some form or another.

How is pointing out to the governing body of the sport that the competitors are cheating whigning?

Your right, poor sportsmanship and whinging are 2 different things.
But then again, blatantly breaking rules and finding loopholes are also 2 different things.

Another interesting fact for you to digest, according to the dictionary definition, cheating is using trickery in order to elude observation, had Michelin been cheating, they would have been far more elusive in their methods would they not have?

Now the launch control MS used when he was with Benetton, that was well covered up, so that would be something covered by the definition of the word cheating.

Like I said before, enough has been said.

Well, I could go with the loophole explanation until Brian's post with quotes from the regulations. But whatever. You can believe Michelin read the rules the way they did in good faith - I don't. When they saw 2 possible ways to read the regulations, they should have asked for a clarification, which, according to the FIA, they didn't.

Have you read the Friday press conference? Funny stuff! An extra I especially like.


RB: I think that, as Ron said, let's put water on the fire. I don't believe for a minute that Michelin were trying to bypass the regulations. They obviously had an interpretation of what they felt was acceptable for the tyre and they are not a company that are going to do something that they knowingly know to be in breach of the regulations and that is down to interpretation. So I do accept that Michelin would not have done that knowingly but we have lots of instances in the past where people have found to have a problem with their car, or whatever it is, not knowingly. It is still a problem even though there is no intent. I think there is an important difference there. I don't think that Michelin intentionally tried to bypass the regulations but if faced with a situation where there is a problem it is still a problem even whether there is intent or not. It is a very technical sport and occasionally you do find things that you didn't expect to happen. I mean, cars have problems and often not intentionally. We have had problems with our cars, Ron had a front wing that was a bit low a few years ago. He didn't do it intentionally, but it happens. So I think there is an important distinction there, something I would like to..

RD: Similar to your bargeboards actually.

RB: Yes. It is an interesting thing, the bargeboards, in that Ferrari as a company admitted that they asked the FIA for a clarification. I don't think to this day McLaren have ever admitted that McLaren were the ones who told the FIA about our bargeboards.

Q: Any further comment up there?


(Silence)


Call me crazy, but I'm loving it! Hollywood should learn from F1 how to write scripts :rofl:

As for cheating - I like cheating! But not the blunt type, the one MS tried in 97. That's not classy. I like cheeky, funny cheating, the one that legends are based on, like, all allegedly, Williams putting on water-filled tyres before weighing, or Brabham needing to cool their engine really well, or a team (forgot which one it was) replacing wings with very heavy ones for weighing, or, from nascar, scaling down the car. Lovely stuff.

Lets get one thing straight. Michelin were never cheating. They were operating within the rules. Using a loophole maybe, cheating no. If they were they would have been disqualified. Now the rules have (effectively) changed so Michelin had to change too.

Do you think Ferrari would have made such a big song and dance about this alleged irregularity if they had been winning? Given that the tyres in question have been that wide since the middle of last year I reckon not. Ferrari aren't whinging either, they are engaging in a mud slinging campaign, and at the same time disrupting their competitors development. Very clever from a political point of view.

As to who is cheating, the FIA is! And all of us are whinging in some form or another.

Phil, can we combine you with Ray somehow? You both talk sense, only somehow on different matters at different times. :tongue:

BTW, in one of the statements the FIA said that they have reason to believe that the tyres the Michelin teams were using at the beginning of the year are not the same as were used later on. Make of that what you want.

What I do agree with wholeheartedly is that if the rules can be read in two (or more?) different ways, then the wording of the rules is unacceptable.

Well, I could go with the loophole explanation until Brian's post with quotes from the regulations. But whatever. You can believe Michelin read the rules the way they did in good faith - I don't. When they saw 2 possible ways to read the regulations, they should have asked for a clarification, which, according to the FIA, they didn't.

Come on Alex most FIA rules are ambiguious. In the case of Section 77(c) everything hinges on the word "furthermore". Or more accurately it hinges on the way the FIA choose to interpret it. They have chosen one way for nearly six years, why would Michelin or any of us expect the FIA to change that overnight? Remember it is a reinterpretation of the rules that allows things like no refueling between final qualifying and race. Does that mean everybody was cheating last year?

Have you read the Friday press conference? Funny stuff!

Yeah I'd have loved to see it, watching Brawn squirm while the audience laughed at him. Interesting about the Sepang 99 bargeboards, I thought Adrian Newey said he tipped off the scrutineers about them. Some choice snippets of Ronspeak in there too.

As for cheating - I like cheating! But not the blunt type, the one MS tried in 97. That's not classy. I like cheeky, funny cheating, the one that legends are based on, like, all allegedly, Williams putting on water-filled tyres before weighing, or Brabham needing to cool their engine really well, or a team (forgot which one it was) replacing wings with very heavy ones for weighing, or, from nascar, scaling down the car. Lovely stuff.

Those were the days Alex! Gordan Murray was the king exploiting loopholes, although Patrick Head wasn't far behind. Unfortunately that era is long gone.

Phil, can we combine you with Ray somehow? You both talk sense, only somehow on different matters at different times. :tongue:

Absolutely not, we can cover a wider arc seperately. :smile: We do talk about different matters at different times, but we always talk sense. Good of you to notice :wink: