Which Engine for Forced Induction??

I've been having a debate with my sister and my friends about the best motor for forced induction. We have all agreed that the B18's are the best motors. But I personally think that the B18C5 is the better motor simply because it was a stronger built motor. The other option is the B18C1 (GSR), my sister says that the B18C1 is the better engine because it is a more tunable engine then the already high hp'd Type-R. I would like to get another opinion, and this opinion will be the one I will stand by, so that my conscience will be cleared. Thank you ahead of time.

P.S. I will list all the four cylinder Honda Engines besides the F20:worshippy: So that if there is a different engine that is better I might know about it.

What about crvtec or ls/vtec, you can turbo one of those and get tons of power, but you might want to resleeve the crvtec because its kind of weak.

But if I have to choose one of the engines you listed I would say B18C1 because the B18C5 is rare and high compression already, would have to rebuild it to make it withstand the turbo.

The best engine to turbo is the B18B1 LS enigne. For as to why the LS (B18B1) is so good for turbo's. First, lets start with the tranny. The longer gear ratios of the LS tranny are prefactly suited for F/I (turbo) apps. The longer gear ratios help the turbo spool better, amount other things. In general, longer gear ratios are better for forece induction apps, shorter ratios for naturally aspirated apps. The type-r has the shortest gear ratios on the 3 mentioned, and the gsr is not much behind. These tranny would not be the best suited for turbos' better suited for N/A. especially the type-r, which in itself was designed to be and n/a engine. It has an 11:1 comperesion ratio, and the GSR about 10:1. Both of these are too high for turbo apps. Turbocharging reuires a low comperssion ratio, something these engines don't have. You'll have to do extensive work to make these engines turbo ready. The LS, mind you, has a 9.2:1 comperesion ratio (c/r). This is well suited for turbo apps. Furthermore, the LS has a very well built block. The LS can handle 12psi on stock internals, more than almost any other honda engine. Most can only handle around 8psi. Also, Vtec cams are not particularly well-suited for turbo apps. They are better suited towards n/a apps. The B18B1 LS engine is non-vtec, this is another reason it is better suited. To sum it up, the LS is a better turbo engine for turbocharging due to A) a low c/r of 9.2:1, )vs 10:1 and 11:1 for the other 2 engines) B) a tranny with longer gear ratios, a perfact set-up for turbo apps. (shorter gear ratio's like the gsr and type-r are better suited for n/a engines).C) non-vtec cams, better suited cams for turbocharging than Vtec cams D) the LS can handle 12 psi on stock internals, vs 8 psi for most other honda engines. Basically, it's comperssion ratio is turbo friendly, with a perfactly suited tranny and the ability to handle 12 psi on the stock internals. The LS with 12 psi/boost should put you in the 250hp range.

Yeah, I have 97 gsr...I'm thinking that too, but i heard it was the LS because there is no vtec

this is off topic but how do i pust a pic....here is the link:http://files.automotiveforums.com/uploads/797651integra.jpg
but how do you post it so it appears the second you click

Yeah, I have 97 gsr...I'm thinking that too, but i heard it was the LS because there is no vtec

Originally posted by eckoman_pdx
The best engine to turbo is the B18B1 LS enigne. For as to why the LS (B18B1) is so good for turbo's. First, lets start with the tranny. The longer gear ratios of the LS tranny are prefactly suited for F/I (turbo) apps. The longer gear ratios help the turbo spool better, amount other things. In general, longer gear ratios are better for forece induction apps, shorter ratios for naturally aspirated apps. The type-r has the shortest gear ratios on the 3 mentioned, and the gsr is not much behind. These tranny would not be the best suited for turbos' better suited for N/A. especially the type-r, which in itself was designed to be and n/a engine. It has an 11:1 comperesion ratio, and the GSR about 10:1. Both of these are too high for turbo apps. Turbocharging reuires a low comperssion ratio, something these engines don't have. You'll have to do extensive work to make these engines turbo ready. The LS, mind you, has a 9.2:1 comperesion ratio (c/r). This is well suited for turbo apps. Furthermore, the LS has a very well built block. The LS can handle 12psi on stock internals, more than almost any other honda engine. Most can only handle around 8psi. Also, Vtec cams are not particularly well-suited for turbo apps. They are better suited towards n/a apps. The B18B1 LS engine is non-vtec, this is another reason it is better suited. To sum it up, the LS is a better turbo engine for turbocharging due to A) a low c/r of 9.2:1, )vs 10:1 and 11:1 for the other 2 engines) B) a tranny with longer gear ratios, a perfact set-up for turbo apps. (shorter gear ratio's like the gsr and type-r are better suited for n/a engines).C) non-vtec cams, better suited cams for turbocharging than Vtec cams D) the LS can handle 12 psi on stock internals, vs 8 psi for most other honda engines. Basically, it's comperssion ratio is turbo friendly, with a perfactly suited tranny and the ability to handle 12 psi on the stock internals. The LS with 12 psi/boost should put you in the 250hp range.

You're somewhat on the right track, but not really. LS gearing is not good for turbos, it's a common misconception. A car with a GSR tranny or an ITR tranny will blow the doors off of an LS car, highway or street given similar drivers. Saying a non-vtec motor is better suited to turbocharging is one of the dumbest things i've ever heard in the honda community period. Vtec heads flow better, can be ported to flow more than an LS head cam, and with the mild duration on stock vtec lobes they do great for turbos. Saying that the LS can handle 12 psi on stock internals and the B18C1/C5 can't is also untrue. A stock GSR motor on pump gas can easily take 12 psi, same goes for the ITR. A GSR motor with an inlinepro headgasket can run 20+ pounds of boost, with adequate fuel and a properly sized turbocharger. Also, 10:1 for a low boost turbo motor is a better choice than 9.2:1. You make more power out of boost and get quicker turbo spool with more compression. Running less compression on a low boost motor is just a band-aid fix for having a bad tuner.

LS with 12 psi = 250 HP maybe at the flywheel, but more likely around 210-220 at the wheels. A GSR with 12 psi will easily make over 300 WHP given a well sized turbo and a good tune.

Edit: And USDM ITR compression is 10.6:1, JDM ITR is 11.1.

BOOSTED331 - We are talking about stock for stock. And that is a bunch of BS that a B18C1 with do 300 HP with 12 PSI. There is a lot of other mods you would have to do to get that.
12 PSI with pump gas on a B18C5? Are you nuts?
Non VTEC is better for turbo mostly because of the valve overlap a VTEC engine produces. At high RPM the turbo can't spool very well.
And longer gearing is better for turbos. Since you seem to know so much, why don't you name me a FACTORY turbo car that DOESN'T have long gearing? You can't, so are you saying you know more than the engineers that build these cars? Your post is full of BS.
8 PSI on a B18B1 with a 3'' catless exhaust system will do 250 crank HP. Up that to 12 PSI, and what do you get?
You are saying so much about tuning, to run 12 PSI on a B18C5 on pump gas is nuts. The car's ignition would have to be so retarded the thing wouldn't make much power anymore. And if you slacked off in your tuning WHATSOEVER so goodbye to the pistons in that thing. Maybe even crack a sleeve because of the tremendous pressure that would put on it.

Originally posted by boosted331

A GSR motor with an inlinepro headgasket can run 20+ pounds of boost, with adequate fuel and a properly sized turbocharger.

WTF? After this statement I rest my case that you sir are a moron.

Originally posted by PWMAN


WTF? After this statement I rest my case that you sir are a moron.

HAHA WTF is wrong with ppl? I mean really 300hp from 12psi on pump gas from a B18C5 or B18C1 , I think I can already hear the pinging :biggrin:

And just FYI the H22A is the worst motor out of the ones listed in the poll. Even though ppl have voted for it, it is a problem matic motor when boosted on stock internals.

BOOSTED331 - We are talking about stock for stock. And that is a bunch of BS that a B18C1 with do 300 HP with 12 PSI. There is a lot of other mods you would have to do to get that.

Engine management and your fuel system, turbo kit and a good tune and 300 WHP is borderline easy. 550CC injectors, 255 intank, hondata and a T3/T04E with a good manifold (read: not drag) @ 12 psi will easily eclipse 300 SAE WHP.

12 PSI with pump gas on a B18C5? Are you nuts?

Nope. You're not going to do it with an FMU on stock injectors, but with a hondata/AEM/fast/accel gen 7 it's totally possible

Non VTEC is better for turbo mostly because of the valve overlap a VTEC engine produces. At high RPM the turbo can't spool very well.

Dead wrong. Vtec head flows better and makes more power period. GSR Cams installed straight up have 17 degrees of overlap, which isn't very much. Stock cam in my old mustang was 202/202 @ .050 .448/.448 lift 114LSA straight up. New turbo cam custom ground for my turbo application by Murillo was 225/221 .537/.547 115 LSA installed 1 degree retarded. I guess you're right. It has more overlap than the stock cam. But hey, what does Mike know. He's only won SSO 6 times since 94 and been campaigning a turbo car since 2000. :shakehead

And longer gearing is better for turbos. Since you seem to know so much, why don't you name me a FACTORY turbo car that DOESN'T have long gearing? You can't, so are you saying you know more than the engineers that build these cars? Your post is full of BS.

Gee, why don't we take a look here. Total multiplication for LS is 13.77, 8.11, 5.41, 4.12, 3.05, first to fifth, respectively. Total multiplication for an AWD 1G dsm is 15.2, 8.12, 5.50, 4.11, 3.28, first to fifth respectively. The AWD car with the quicker spooling turbo has a much steeper first gear to get you out of the hole quicker, which is what you need for a turbo. Lets look at third gen RX7 gear ratios, shall we? 14.28, 8.26, 5.7, 4.1, 2.95. First to 5th, respectively. Once again, a car with quicker spooling turbos has more multiplication to get it out of the hole. You have to remember that the average turbo honda doesn't have a quick spooling turbo that's all in by 3 grand, which is why the GSR tranny IS better for a street turbo honda. Also keep in mind that hondas do rev a lot higher than a talon typically does, it's not uncommon to have a 9000+ RPM street honda, which, yet again, is why you want to have closer gears.

8 PSI on a B18B1 with a 3'' catless exhaust system will do 250 crank HP. Up that to 12 PSI, and what do you get?
You are saying so much about tuning, to run 12 PSI on a B18C5 on pump gas is nuts. The car's ignition would have to be so retarded the thing wouldn't make much power anymore. And if you slacked off in your tuning WHATSOEVER so goodbye to the pistons in that thing. Maybe even crack a sleeve because of the tremendous pressure that would put on it.

No, not really. Hence the taking it to a good tuner and getting it tuned with a wideband on the dyno :rolleyes: 12 PSI on a 10.6:1 motor really isn't that much, easily doable on a daily driven pump gas car, and it will still make a heap of power.

Originally posted by PWMAN


WTF? After this statement I rest my case that you sir are a moron.

Yeah, damn, inline pro must be idiots for going 10.40's with a stock GSR block and one of their headgaskets :rolleyes: www.inlinepro.com click on turbo street car.

Originally posted by boosted331


Yeah, damn, inline pro must be idiots for going 10.40's with a stock GSR block and one of their headgaskets :rolleyes: www.inlinepro.com click on turbo street car.

It might do it once or it moght do it twice but it will blow up in your face and create a mess of what used to be a good B18C1.

Alright ppl......just to clarify something.....I AM NOT AN IDIOT.... I mean really, in most cases I know what I'm talking about. With that out of the way, I move to my next topic of discussion.....How much of an idiot Boosted331 thinks, not only me but everyone else replying to this thread, is. Ok, my SISTER knows that a Stock B18C5 will not run 12 psi on pump gas, Boosted331 is thereby considered an idiot. Secondly with a swapped head as the only other internal mod, there is not a chance in hell that the B18C1 GSR motor will get 300 Wheel HorsePower from 12 psi, Boosted331 is again considered, in my book, an idiot. The GSR from InlinePro used their headgasket, yes, but they also souped the living shit out of that B18C1, with some major mods done to almost every part of every part of the GSR internals, therefore I will still reside to say that Boosted331 is, well, an idiot. Ah also on the topic of InlinePro heads, There is also no way that the engine would reach 2000 rpm's without being tore all to hell running 20 POUNDS OF BOOST THROUGH A STOCK GSR BLOCK, ARE YOU INSANE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:wtf: I must agree with pwman, you sir ARE, in fact, a MORON. Another thing, I know that a non-VTEC engine will handle more on the stock internals and that LS DOES have better gearing. To say that a GSR or ITR Stock Motor would respond better is an utter diss to the Honda God (Not Sure who that is, but there are a few folks that come to mind, and You sir are NOT one of them.) And now I will move forward to my final topic of discussion this evening and this pertains to your 4th defense of your stupidity, we are not concerning ourselves with any such company as, THE FORBIDDEN........D....S..........M!!!!!!!!!:banhim : (I'm sorry, but for example's sake I just had to say it.:banghead:)nor are we talking about 3rd gen RX-7's, we ARE in the HONDA/ACURA forum and you, sir, have sinned against the Honda God for presenting a defense for the forbidden company, and must repent of your sinful nature. We're not talking about mazda, nor, well, you know, the other company.... anyways the other part of this defense is another reason why a NON-VTEC motor IS better for turbo, without V-TEC, and the longer gearing, that gives the turbo more time to spool plus you get a much longer boost then you would with a GSR or ITR tranny. Instead of comparing LS, D...S.........you know the last letter, and an RX-7, try comparing a Type-R, a GSR, and then an LS, I, then must concur with my previous statements and the opinion of pwman, and I am hereby resting my case that you sir ARE, as a proven fact, A MORON:gay:.

Alright ppl......just to clarify something.....I AM NOT AN IDIOT.... I mean really, in most cases I know what I'm talking about. With that out of the way, I move to my next topic of discussion.....How much of an idiot Boosted331 thinks, not only me but everyone else replying to this thread, is. Ok, my SISTER knows that a Stock B18C5 will not run 12 psi on pump gas, Boosted331 is thereby considered an idiot.

lol, sure thing bub. I've seen it done, i've driven ITRs running 12 PSI, and it works just fine.

Secondly with a swapped head as the only other internal mod, there is not a chance in hell that the B18C1 GSR motor will get 300 Wheel HorsePower from 12 psi, Boosted331 is again considered, in my book, an idiot.

Yep, i'm an idiot. You got me there, there isn't a chance in hell a stock GSR with a turbo will make 300 WHP on 12 psi :rolleyes: This coming from a guy who wanted to trade his bimmer for a civic

The GSR from InlinePro used their headgasket, yes, but they also souped the living shit out of that B18C1, with some major mods done to almost every part of every part of the GSR internals, therefore I will still reside to say that Boosted331 is, well, an idiot.

lol, ok. Guy who owns the car is named Karl, he works for jinxproof tattoos in DC. The car went 10.70's on 22-24 pounds of boost on the stock sleeves, pistons, rods, crank, rock stock bottom end, and it went 10.40's with a small shot of nitrous before the bottom end gave up. He has a built motor in it now, but it did go high 10's on stock motor.

Ah also on the topic of InlinePro heads, There is also no way that the engine would reach 2000 rpm's without being tore all to hell running 20 POUNDS OF BOOST THROUGH A STOCK GSR BLOCK, ARE YOU INSANE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:wtf: I must agree with pwman, you sir ARE, in fact, a MORON.

This shows how smart you are :rolleyes: I was talking about inline pro head GASKETS not cylinder heads. Stock GSR block with inline pro gasket and C16 has run 20 pounds of boost, that's a proven fact, shut your mouth.

Another thing, I know that a non-VTEC engine will handle more on the stock internals and that LS DOES have better gearing. To say that a GSR or ITR Stock Motor would respond better is an utter diss to the Honda God (Not Sure who that is, but there are a few folks that come to mind, and You sir are NOT one of them.)

Yeah, sorry, but no. Show me some results that an LS motor will make more power than a GSR or ITR. What does the LS have in it's favour? It has less compression, a worse flowing head, weaker internals, lower lift and duration cams, a tranny that is NOT geared well for a turbo (despite what you idiots think) and the motor is not balanced as precisely as a GSR or ITR motor is. It's a fact. B18C's make more power per pound of boost than LS motors do.

And now I will move forward to my final topic of discussion this evening and this pertains to your 4th defense of your stupidity, we are not concerning ourselves with any such company as, THE FORBIDDEN........D....S..........M!!!!!!!!!:banhim : (I'm sorry, but for example's sake I just had to say it.:banghead:)nor are we talking about 3rd gen RX-7's, we ARE in the HONDA/ACURA forum and you, sir, have sinned against the Honda God for presenting a defense for the forbidden company, and must repent of your sinful nature. We're not talking about mazda, nor, well, you know, the other company.... anyways the other part of this defense is another reason why a NON-VTEC motor IS better for turbo, without V-TEC, and the longer gearing, that gives the turbo more time to spool plus you get a much longer boost then you would with a GSR or ITR tranny. Instead of comparing LS, D...S.........you know the last letter, and an RX-7, try comparing a Type-R, a GSR, and then an LS, I, then must concur with my previous statements and the opinion of pwman, and I am hereby resting my case that you sir ARE, as a proven fact, A MORON:gay:.

The guy wanted me to compare the gearing of the LS/GSR tranny to the gearing of other turbo cars. If you would pull your dumb head out of your ass for a second you would have read the post before making a stupid comment.

Wow, I just noticed what a tool you are. First post you say you think the C5 is the best, then when that other tool says B18B you jump all over his dick to try and agree with him. :loser:

Sorry, I'm not the one driving a fucking mustang on the Honda/Acura forum!!! And I never said that the LS would make more power, I said that the engine is better suited for it stock than a GSR/ITR. The lower compression ratio allows more pressure from the turbo thereby allowing more boost than that of a GSR/ITR, the longer gearing is better because again the Turbo has more time throughout the entire gear to push pressure. Yes it does have weaker internals, yes it does have lower lift and duration cams, and no it is not as finetuned as the GSR/ITR engine's are, and yes the ITR's and GSR's do produce more power per psi but with the LS able to run more than both engine's it provides a sufficient make-up for the difference. One other thing, The civic I was thinking about trading my bimmer for was running 10.9 quarter's on the B18C5 motor block, pushing 14 psi because that engine wasn't built to go much higher, and it wasn't running ten's with just Head Gaskets as the other mod.

For some reason BOOSTED331 can't get past the fact that we are talking about a completely stock engine(that means no head gasket) and pump gas(not C16).
So if a B18C5 can boost 12 PSI with it's compression(is that without a head gasket BTW?) and a C1 can handle 24 PSI with nitrous, I think it's safe to say the B18B1 can handle 20 PSI with a head gasket easily given some play because of it's weaker internals. So a C5 is boosting 12, B1 is boosting 20, they are going to make about the same HP, but the B1 will have more torque. So therefore the B1 is better stock for stock. Torque is king of the street.

For some reason BOOSTED331 can't get past the fact that we are talking about a completely stock engine(that means no head gasket) and pump gas(not C16).
So if a B18C5 can boost 12 PSI with it's compression(is that without a head gasket BTW?) and a C1 can handle 24 PSI with nitrous, I think it's safe to say the B18B1 can handle 20 PSI with a head gasket easily given some play because of it's weaker internals. So a C5 is boosting 12, B1 is boosting 20, they are going to make about the same HP, but the B1 will have more torque. So therefore the B1 is better stock for stock. Torque is king of the street.

:werd::evillol:

For some reason BOOSTED331 can't get past the fact that we are talking about a completely stock engine(that means no head gasket) and pump gas(not C16).
So if a B18C5 can boost 12 PSI with it's compression(is that without a head gasket BTW?) and a C1 can handle 24 PSI with nitrous, I think it's safe to say the B18B1 can handle 20 PSI with a head gasket easily given some play because of it's weaker internals. So a C5 is boosting 12, B1 is boosting 20, they are going to make about the same HP, but the B1 will have more torque. So therefore the B1 is better stock for stock. Torque is king of the street.

You stated it perfactly. Also, as you said, Low end Torque is king of the streets. That being said, the LS hits it's peak torque roughly 1000 rpm sooner than the GSR. Also hitting it much earlier than the ITR. Horsepower is a product of (roughly, I am remebering this formula from memory) torque x rpm/5252. That being said, of course a higher spooling motor will make more power. That is why the B16A, for example, has more peak HP than the LS. Cuz it spools higher. But the LS motors superior torque will be missed much more on the streets than the extra 18 hp. Even boosted, you'd miss the extra torque of the LS much more than you would the extra hp at the high rpm's of the high reving B16A. Also, as PWMAN stated eariler, one of the reasons the non-vtec is better than the vtec is the overlap. The High overlap of the vtec cams ins't exactly the most freindly turbo set-up. The overlap makes it hard for the turbo to spool at higher rpm's. If you don't agree with this, talk to the big honda engine builders, like JG engine dymanics. They'll echo the same statement about overlap. Sure, it CAN be done, building a good GSR or ITR turbo motor. But that is talking about major work, intrernal mods, closing a deck, re-working the quench area for more complete combustion, etc, besides your typicla turbo mods like the turbo, injectros, FMU, fuel-pump, etc. That clearly is NOT on stock internals, block, etc. Stock the Stock, the LS can be boosted more, and is better suited for such.Thisis partically due to the very 9.2:1 c/r you seem so intent on bashing. It's well known, boosting a high comperssion motor results in ping and engine knock. Read up, thats why, whenever these motor's are used, usually you seem lower c/r pistoms put in. A lower c/r on a boosted enigne = less ping and knock.

WTF? Why are people voting for the H22? Shows how much they know :screwy: :gay:

WTF? Why are people voting for the H22? Shows how much they know :screwy: :gay:

Exactly as I posted on the first page. I don't understand what makes ppl think that the H22A is a good motor to boost
:screwy:

Exactly as I posted on the first page. I don't understand what makes ppl think that the H22A is a good motor to boost
:screwy:
I agree. It probably has something to do with them knowing nothing about the engines, just thinking..."ohh...H22A, 2.2 liters, vtec, 195 HP to start....what a great engine to boost. That 2.2 liters makes it # 1 for sure, we all know there's no replacement for displacement.".....thats about the only reason I can think of why people think its a great motor to boost. Misinformed, and making stupid opinions as a result. If they actually did research, they'd figure out the LS is much better.

people lets get one thing straight. the ls tranny is not the best tranny for turbo it is the gsr tranny and reason being ls tranny is too long and even if you are running considerable amount of boost it takes alot longer to achieve that power. the si or type r tranny are better for na because of there shorter ratios. gsr is perfectly balanced and is the best tranny. a gsr motor with a gsr tranny at 10 psi of boost is quicker than a gsr motor with an ls tranny at 10 psi of boost.

For N/A the GSR tranny is better, for turbo apps the LS tranny is better.

BTW, 1st and second gear are the same in both trannies, so launch isn't going to be affected that much. The final drive is like .2 longer in the LS, which doesn't make that much difference.

the 1st and 2nd gear are the same on the gsr and ls but 3rd, 4th and 5th are different and so is the final as you said. gsr works best for turbo applications because ls ratios are way too long even for the track, not many drag cars use the ls tranny and not many street cars either atleast around texas and other states in this area use the ls tranny, it is either the si tranny or the type r tranny or the best tranny ever built by honda the gsr.

Why would the GSR tranny be better?

Why would the GSR tranny be better?

You get out of the hole quicker, when you shift you get back into boost quicker because of the tighter gears and higher FD, and the shorter 5th gear lets you make highway pulls without waiting for forever for the car to start spooling the turbo.

You get out of the hole quicker, when you shift you get back into boost quicker because of the tighter gears and higher FD, and the shorter 5th gear lets you make highway pulls without waiting for forever for the car to start spooling the turbo.
No, sorry-wrong wording - I meant Why would the GSR be better than the type R?

No, sorry-wrong wording - I meant Why would the GSR be better than the type R?

Depending on turbo setup, GSR tranny isn't always better. For a B16 or a low compression, stock bore B18, or a high power car running tall slicks the ITR/B16 will rip you out of the hole much quicker and get that turbo spooled, but you will be somewhat limited with top speed. GSR is a good tranny for higher powered or larger displacement cars that don't need the wicked low end gearing as they will just spin more.

Depending on turbo setup, GSR tranny isn't always better. For a B16 or a low compression, stock bore B18, or a high power car running tall slicks the ITR/B16 will rip you out of the hole much quicker and get that turbo spooled, but you will be somewhat limited with top speed. GSR is a good tranny for higher powered or larger displacement cars that don't need the wicked low end gearing as they will just spin more.

Not trying to argue. I just wanted to state I still feel the LS is the best tranny for Forced Indunction. I know plenty of Honda engine builders feel the same way also. The LS keeps you in the turbo's power band longer due to the longer gear ratio's. The type-r tranny and Si tranny's shorter ratio's due the oppisite. You get dumped out of the turbo power band sooner, so it's back to re-spool sooner. The Type-R/Si tranny's are the best N/A tranny's not the best Forced Induction trannys. There's no turbo to spool in N/A, no turbo power band to worry about. What makes the LS so great for Forced Induction is the same reason it isn't the best for N/A. The Type-R and Si are better instead for N/A apps.

Turbo spooling ideas...

Maybe Im just crazy, but why does everyone say the turbo spooling is so greatly dependant on the gearing, I figure it will spool to whatever rpm your at. - Are you saying that long gears are better becuase the turbo can "keep up" with the increase in RPM, where as it cant spool fast enough if you have a high gear, becuase of the time it takes to increase rpm is less?
I would figure, that when idling (off the start) you'd want a very short gear to get it spooled (and just give that one away), then when you drop down to the next gear, it will already be spooling fast enough for the drop into a long gear.
I think of this mostly becuase when your sitting at the start, your not going to drop the crap out of first in a fwd car, so the turbo wont keep up anyway, so just keep it as short as possible and use it to your advantage in the other 3 gears whitch could then be signifigantly longer w/o loosing anything.
So basically what Im saying, is that you wouldnt want a long first gear becuase the turbo would basically be going from a stop and trying to start there, with a larger mechanichal disadvatage.

I pose it as a question, because I dont have a turbo, yet, so I'm really just thinking about what should be happening, and If Im wrong could ya just help me out?

My :2cents:

Buzz1167
Jon N

Turbo spooling ideas...

Maybe Im just crazy, but why does everyone say the turbo spooling is so greatly dependant on the gearing, I figure it will spool to whatever rpm your at. - Are you saying that long gears are better becuase the turbo can "keep up" with the increase in RPM, where as it cant spool fast enough if you have a high gear, becuase of the time it takes to increase rpm is less?
I would figure, that when idling (off the start) you'd want a very short gear to get it spooled (and just give that one away), then when you drop down to the next gear, it will already be spooling fast enough for the drop into a long gear.
I think of this mostly becuase when your sitting at the start, your not going to drop the crap out of first in a fwd car, so the turbo wont keep up anyway, so just keep it as short as possible and use it to your advantage in the other 3 gears whitch could then be signifigantly longer w/o loosing anything.
So basically what Im saying, is that you wouldnt want a long first gear becuase the turbo would basically be going from a stop and trying to start there, with a larger mechanichal disadvatage.

I pose it as a question, because I dont have a turbo, yet, so I'm really just thinking about what should be happening, and If Im wrong could ya just help me out?

My :2cents:

Buzz1167
Jon N

Ok, I didn't get much sleep,so sorry if it sounds confusing. Okay, I think the basic Idea is that witrh longer gearing, you stay in the optimal Turbo-RPM band longer. Shorter gearing means you have to shift quicker, longer gears you can go longer between shifts. Since you don't have to shift as soon, you spend a little more time in the turbo friendly rPM. Turbo's don't kick in really until a cetrain RPM, when they are spooled enough to creat more power. This is what cases "turbo lag." Basically, longer gears keep you in the turbo-friendly RPM band longer, this means you don't shift out of it as quick. The result is that you stay in the turbo-rpm band longer, so you get basically get a little longer out of your boost before shifting. Shifting puts you out of the rpm band, you need to wait till the proper engine rpm is hit to spool the turbo before making boost again. Since shorter gear ratios shift sooner, you shift out of the turbo rpm band sooner. Basically, longer gears leave you in the band a little longer. This allows you to make better use of the HP the turbo produces at full boost, since you arn't as quickly shifting out of the optimal turbo rpm band and having to let the turbo re-spool. The turbo will still have to respol when you shift, but you won't have to shift as quick with longer gears as shirter gears. Basically, longer gears like the LS are good for turbo's, shorter gears like the type-r rock for NA. The type-r, being a highly tuned NA motor, has nice short gearing. What gearing is best depends on idf you are going turbo or NA, but if you aere going turbo, you can read above and see why the longer gearing is better suited for turbo-apps. Because it keeps you in the rpm band for a longer time period, resulting in more time to use the HP created by the boost before having to shift and let the turbo-respool.

Ok, I get most of what you said, but basically my entire query hinges on the statement:
"Turbo's don't kick in really until a cetrain RPM, when they are spooled enough to creat more power. This is what cases "turbo lag.""

So take that idea off of the starting line: that means at some arbitrary number, we'll say 3000rpm, the turbo starts "actually making power" That means if you have a "long" first gear, that you will be under 3000 for longer when your starting. So My thought was to make a relatively short first gear (first gear only) and just run up to like 30mph in first, then that you have motion, you can drop down to a long gear that begins at, we'll say 3200 @ 30mph, or something like that and now your where you want to be. Then you can use the entire band for the rest of the time.
So lets take that idea, and say youve got a long first gear, so your sitting at 2000rpm off the start until you get moving; then after about 4000 rpm the turbo might "kick in" (becuase of turbo lag) and since your in first gear, its probably just gonna screw up the lanuch anyway.
And another example, say youve got a short first gear, so the engine revs up much faster, youve got mechanichal advantage, so you can make the most of the "non-turbo" time and since your revving up faster, youll probably never get full turbo boost becuase youd probably be outrevving it with the engine? But even if that happens, now its time to switch gears, and the turbo is spooled so your set, and it take less time to get through a short gear than the long one, so you changing gears sooner.
Im basically saying that a boost in first gear seems kind of useless becuase you only there for a few seconds, so you might as well just ditch it and setup for the next gear.

BTW, what exactly do you consider long and short gears anyway? I dont know ratios, I was thinking that short would probably mean 30-35mph and long more like 40-45? I know the corvette can go like 60 in first, but then again, its not turbo'd, it got it becuase its got so much friggen power it doesnt matter.

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Buzz1167
Jon N

Ok, I get most of what you said, but basically my entire query hinges on the statement:
"Turbo's don't kick in really until a cetrain RPM, when they are spooled enough to creat more power. This is what cases "turbo lag.""

So take that idea off of the starting line: that means at some arbitrary number, we'll say 3000rpm, the turbo starts "actually making power" That means if you have a "long" first gear, that you will be under 3000 for longer when your starting. So My thought was to make a relatively short first gear (first gear only) and just run up to like 30mph in first, then that you have motion, you can drop down to a long gear that begins at, we'll say 3200 @ 30mph, or something like that and now your where you want to be. Then you can use the entire band for the rest of the time.
So lets take that idea, and say youve got a long first gear, so your sitting at 2000rpm off the start until you get moving; then after about 4000 rpm the turbo might "kick in" (becuase of turbo lag) and since your in first gear, its probably just gonna screw up the lanuch anyway.
And another example, say youve got a short first gear, so the engine revs up much faster, youve got mechanichal advantage, so you can make the most of the "non-turbo" time and since your revving up faster, youll probably never get full turbo boost becuase youd probably be outrevving it with the engine? But even if that happens, now its time to switch gears, and the turbo is spooled so your set, and it take less time to get through a short gear than the long one, so you changing gears sooner.
Im basically saying that a boost in first gear seems kind of useless becuase you only there for a few seconds, so you might as well just ditch it and setup for the next gear.

BTW, what exactly do you consider long and short gears anyway? I dont know ratios, I was thinking that short would probably mean 30-35mph and long more like 40-45? I know the corvette can go like 60 in first, but then again, its not turbo'd, it got it becuase its got so much friggen power it doesnt matter.

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Buzz1167
Jon N

I used to have the link to a page that showed the ratio's for all the various honda trannys. The guy also had tested the longer LS tranny, a short geared jdm tranny, and one where he had swapped in different gear ratios. I forogt what he did. I know his wacked out tranny started quick, but was the slowest by the end. Not saying your idea would be, just saying however he did it, it was. He had the MPH for each tranny after each gear, including his hybrid. I wish I still had the link so you could take a look, it might help you out if you are looking as creating a tranny with custom ratio's. I the ratio's I think in first are virtaually the same in most or all of the trannys, it's the final drive ratio that is longer geared in the LS, and maybe like 2 of the higher gears. I know it's the final drive ratio that makes the diff in the LS. I've hear of ppl just swappin in the LS final drive gear into, say, a GSR tranny, to get the longer gearing. I don't know how that worked out though.

Ok, so your saying that the first gear doesnt really matter too much, and thus doesnt apply to the "long gear" rule. Ok, I can get that. The first gear was the only one I was arguing about, I didnt think all the gears should be short, like an entirely new gear box, just the first.
And the tranny hybrid description is kind of the opposite of what I thought it should be, I guess its kinda the same idea. - You say people use a gsr tranny and a ls final gear, By my reasoning they should be using an ls tranny with a Gsr first gear. Is the gsr tranny better by something other than its gear ratios and thats why they use it, or maybe you can't reverse it?

I ask becuase I have a "crv" tranny, and I think its more like the ls tranny.

Buzz1167
Jon N

Ok, so your saying that the first gear doesnt really matter too much, and thus doesnt apply to the "long gear" rule. Ok, I can get that. The first gear was the only one I was arguing about, I didnt think all the gears should be short, like an entirely new gear box, just the first.
And the tranny hybrid description is kind of the opposite of what I thought it should be, I guess its kinda the same idea. - You say people use a gsr tranny and a ls final gear, By my reasoning they should be using an ls tranny with a Gsr first gear. Is the gsr tranny better by something other than its gear ratios and thats why they use it, or maybe you can't reverse it?

I ask becuase I have a "crv" tranny, and I think its more like the ls tranny.

Buzz1167
Jon N

The times I know of putting the LS final drive in a GSR tranny was when someone already had a GSR tranny. I don't think there's any advantage to doing it that way.

I'LL START OFF WITH A QUESTION...WHEN DOES AN ENGINE FLOW MORE AIR? IN HIGHER RPMS OF COURSE! AN LS TRANNY TAKES LONGER TO GET TO HIGH RPMS SO THEREFORE BOOST WOULD NOT KICK IN AS FAST...A GSR OR TYPE R TRANNY STAYS IN THE HIGHER RPMS LONGER (THEREFORE MORE AIR FLOW) THROUGH EVERY GEAR SO THEREFORE BOOST WOULD KICK IN FASTER! DUH :banghead:
IN TERMS OF COMPRESSION RATIO ITS BETTER TO HAVE A HIGHER COMPRESSION RATIO AND LESS BOOST THEN A LOW COMPRESSION RATIO AND MORE BOOST BECAUSE HIGHER COMPRESSION AND SMALL TURBO ACCOMPANYING THE LOW BOOST = HIGHLY RESPONSIVE & LESS TURBO LAG

THERFORE I WOULD GO WITH EITHER THE GSR OR TYPE R

I'LL START OFF WITH A QUESTION...WHEN DOES AN ENGINE FLOW MORE AIR? IN HIGHER RPMS OF COURSE! AN LS TRANNY TAKES LONGER TO GET TO HIGH RPMS SO THEREFORE BOOST WOULD NOT KICK IN AS FAST...A GSR OR TYPE R TRANNY STAYS IN THE HIGHER RPMS LONGER (THEREFORE MORE AIR FLOW) THROUGH EVERY GEAR SO THEREFORE BOOST WOULD KICK IN FASTER! DUH :banghead:
IN TERMS OF COMPRESSION RATIO ITS BETTER TO HAVE A HIGHER COMPRESSION RATIO AND LESS BOOST THEN A LOW COMPRESSION RATIO AND MORE BOOST BECAUSE HIGHER COMPRESSION AND SMALL TURBO ACCOMPANYING THE LOW BOOST = HIGHLY RESPONSIVE & LESS TURBO LAG

THERFORE I WOULD GO WITH EITHER THE GSR OR TYPE R
OK buddy are you ready to be schooled?
Yes, higher RPM flows more air. However, there is this little problem called traction. Getting to that higher RPM faster will only make you spin your tires more resulting in lower ET's. Secondly, the LS tranny is not so high that it drops your engine RPM's down that low to the point where you don't make boost when you shift. You will still be in full boost in anything over 4K RPM, so if you shift at 7K, it will only drop to like 5K so you are still going to boost in full.
I will give an extreme example for you're theary about low/high compression VS low/High boost. A 8.5:1 compression engine can boost about 18 PSI on pump gas. A 10:1 can only boost about 8. Now that extra 1.5:1 compression is going to give your engine about 20 more HP. But the 10 extra PSI of boost is going to give your engine 100 HP extra. Which do you think is going to win a race? Sure before the turbo spools the higher compression is going to jump ahead, but after about a half a second of glory it's going to be shattered at the 10 car lengths the high boosted car is going to win by.
Are you done giving your unexperienced opinion now?

Yeah, damn, inline pro must be idiots for going 10.40's with a stock GSR block and one of their headgaskets :rolleyes: www.inlinepro.com click on turbo street car.


Well, I hate to jump on the band wagon, but they don't state that they're using a stock gsr block, it says stock b18 block with a gsr head. Also note that a 3mm(stock is .75mm) head gasket is going to lower the compression quite a bit, which would allow for more boost than a stock gsr.

If you don't have a bunch of cash laying around, I think it'd be easier to boost an LS, than a GSR or ITR. You can always swap a vtec head on there later if you want to.

However, the whole bottom end on a GSR/ITR is a lot stronger than an LS. For instance, stronger rods, wider rod journals, better rod/stroke ratio, higher pressure oil pump, water system type oil cooler, and a block girdle. So this would likely be more reliable, just more limited on how much boost you can use on pump gas before detonation.

If you had a lot of cash and wanted to go all out, there's no doubt the gsr/itr block is better, you can sleeve it to 84mm+, add a deck plate (or just buy a taller after market block), and buy all strong aftermarket internals to make it bulletproof. They you could probably put a huge turbo on it and boost it to like 20+ pounds with all kinds of crazy tuning equipment.

I personally wouldn't want to go this route, I bet you'd get like 10 miles to the gallon with all the fuel it'd take to keep you from detonating.

Really this is all speculation as I don't know much about turbos and I just like to ramble on as if I have a clue what I'm talking about. :D

I've been having a debate with my sister and my friends about the best motor for forced induction. We have all agreed that the B18's are the best motors. But I personally think that the B18C5 is the better motor simply because it was a stronger built motor. The other option is the B18C1 (GSR), my sister says that the B18C1 is the better engine because it is a more tunable engine then the already high hp'd Type-R. I would like to get another opinion, and this opinion will be the one I will stand by, so that my conscience will be cleared. Thank you ahead of time.

P.S. I will list all the four cylinder Honda Engines besides the F20:worshippy: So that if there is a different engine that is better I might know about it.

The type-r isn't made for boost you'll blow it up. the gsr c/r too high plus you have to tune around vtec. B18B is the best, you can run super high boost and tuning is way easier.

y is the h22 a bad engine to turbo?

y is the h22 a bad engine to turbo?

What i heard is that they have a weak block for boost. Also hear that turboing any VTEC motor isnt good for some reason. But i havent heard any real explanations why. All i kno is that B-series motors have a bullet proof block for any crazy ideas. Lets see what the real JDM people say. Im like most people where im still learning a lot about JDM motors and stuff. This is an interesting thread.

Hey what about F22 motors??? Does everything that goes to H22s apply to F22s since it is the same series

hey everyone, man the thread has really change. here are some dynos so we can end this once and for all. man, wish someone pm me earlier, but oh well. what im going to show u are two dynos, a turbo gsr and ls which both having very similar hp but the gsr is at its optimum psi unlike the ls.
http://files.automotiveforums.com/gallery/watermark.php?file=/503/80346turbogsr20.jpg
as u can see this make 234whp at 8psi, but if u look carefully at the tq, this is only at 170. not only that, but it has a better turbo kit.

here's the ls:
http://files.automotiveforums.com/gallery/watermark.php?file=/503/80346usls4.jpg
with this one its making 230whp at 10 but can still go higher to 12 to reach its optimum psi. the tq unlike the b18c1 is at 207, thats a difference of 37lbs of tq! the kit in use is a drag which doesn't compare to the rev hard. at 12 psi, i infer the hp could go to +240 and +215 for tq. just like the other guys said earlier, tq will run the streets. in this long debated case of what engine is better hopefully u now know.

so to answer the guy's question and many others, the best engine for forced induction is the b18b, all hail :worshippy :worshippy . i got the 92 ls b18a which make similar power results to the b18b so there wouldn't be much of a difference at all.

So wait what would happen if u run 12psi to the GSR? All this FI stuff is confusing for me and the battle between engines

So wait what would happen if u run 12psi to the GSR? All this FI stuff is confusing for me and the battle between engines

u can can't run 12 psi's on a stock b18c1 (gsr), well u can but there goes your engine.

So wait what would happen if u run 12psi to the GSR? All this FI stuff is confusing for me and the battle between engines

You can run 12 PSI on the internals, but not on pump gas. It will detonate because the compression in a GSR is much higher to begin with than an LS.

You can run 12 PSI on the internals, but not on pump gas. It will detonate because the compression in a GSR is much higher to begin with than an LS.

oh yea i forgot about the different compression ratios. Alright thanx people!

And just FYI the H22A is the worst motor out of the ones listed in the poll. Even though ppl have voted for it, it is a problem matic motor when boosted on stock internals.

ur sayin the D-series is better for turbo than the H22??

This thread is ancient.

This thread is ancient.

thanks i didn't even noticed.

atleast the question was answered so people don't have to argue about this debate over and over again, especially about the b18b and b18c1. it gets really annoying to see the same freaken thread topics in different forums. the mods should move them all to one forum so everyone is on the same page. one thing that dumbfounds me is the fact that even after i gave proof of the two dynos, why are people still voting for the the b18c1. they must not be reading the posts or they are really ignorant and stubborn headed. as far as how much power can be extracted, there's even dynos of over 650hp coming out of the the b18b, so power is not an issue at all.

[QUOTE=tran_nsx] it gets really annoying to see the same freaken thread topics in different forums. QUOTE]

I completely agree. Unfortunately, no matter how extensively moderators monitor the forums, it'll always happen.

Holy crap this thread has got long :p I have not popped back in here in a long time lol. Will it ever die? :icon16:

ur sayin the D-series is better for turbo than the H22??

Not really but I have known more stock D series motors to be boosted with better luck than the H22A. I was mostly talking about in the DOHC aspect, but I would take a D series and boost it before I would boost the H22A :2cents:

and I understand this was a stock motor discussion thread and people did not read before voting displacment first. This being said I take issue to bad H22A marks after a built motor at least. I have seen 16 H22A's come out of the two shops in my area (8 and 4) with 9.5-1 JE pistons and numbers like 8PSI 250 HP, 16 PSI with 360 to the wheels, both on pump gas set up to run on the street mostly and at the track on the weekends, mind you all of them sleeved. I have also seen the same ones with 440-650HP on C16 gas with the bigger injectors. He also has a new race motor to take the place of the turbo built GSR which ran an 8.61 at moroso a few months back which had about 670 to the wheels in a tube framed hatchback. The new motor, an H22A to 2.3 like my basic build will produce over 1000 HP to the wheels and they are hoping to achieve high 7's from this H23A DOHCVTECed monster.

The sleeves are the reason I said they were the worst motor to boost. It is just like tring to boost a B20 their cylinder walls are too thin. Yes res;eeving it would be a very, very good move :bigthumb:

As whtteg already said, the reason the H22 isn't considered a good motor to boost is because the cylinder walls are thin. The can wobble and crack under too much boost. As he said, the same is true with a B20. A B20 is essentailly a bored out B18B1. Re-sleeving the H22 or B20 is a very good place to start. If you are doing a full motor build, re-sleeving takes care of one of the more things that makes boosting these motors not the most ideal set-up in the world. Re-sleeving a motor and building it up can make almost any of the honda motors worthy of boost, so to speak. However, most people in the scene will never do a full build. Even if they talk about it, it doesn't happen. As a result, the H22 isn't the greatest motor to boost, since we are talking boosting stockers. If your going to build a motor, what motor you build and what you do to strengthen the block, etc...depends mostly on your buget. The H22 can be boosted and make power, thats true. But as whtteg said, if your doing this, re-sleeving is a good place to start. If you arn't interested in building a motor, you are looking to mildly build and boost a motor, the H22 isn't the greatest choice then, since, as we said, the cylinder walls (sleeves) are thin and prone to crack under too much boost.

However, most people in the scene will never do a full build. Even if they talk about it, it doesn't happen. .

This happens when people find out how much it is to resleeve the block. LOL :iceslolan

This happens when people find out how much it is to resleeve the block. LOL :iceslolan

Yes, among other things they discover the price on...lol..."what??? you mean it costs money to make my motor stronger??? that's messed up..."...LOL :iceslolan

good lord... trying to read this whole post has given me a headache!