Which Engine for Forced Induction??

good lord... trying to read this whole post has given me a headache!

You must mean whole thread...the last 3 posts by me and PWMAN were pretty short, lol.

isn't the hss pretty good for FI after it's built?

Hss?

H22, my bad

uhhh...scattered throughtout this thread there are numerous places saying "the h22 isnt good for boost because it has weak cylinder walls"

Just wanted to give credit to somebody to show that you can trust him.... With the help of eckoman_pdx, I builded an entire B18B1 Turbo LS/Vtec making about 400HP+ on my Acura Integra 99. (I wonder if he remembers me :smile: ) The engine's running great.... So, you can trust this guy and any other peeps that agree with him.... Peace

i didn't read the whole thread, will do, but del posted those pics of a 1000hp H22, so it seem 300 + wouldn't be hard to do on a regular basis

Just wanted to give credit to somebody to show that you can trust him.... With the help of eckoman_pdx, I builded an entire B18B1 Turbo LS/Vtec making about 400HP+ on my Acura Integra 99. (I wonder if he remembers me :smile: ) The engine's running great.... So, you can trust this guy and any other peeps that agree with him.... Peace

Hey, I remember you!!! I'm glad to heard back about how it turned out!!! I'm also glad to see you got the motor built and boosted correctly. I'm glad it all worked out for you. Thanks bunchs for remembering my help and mentioning it. It's always nice to receive props when they are desevered. I appericate it. Like I say, I am always glad to help. Hit me up with a PM, I'd love to hear more about the motor and set-up.

Jermonsta, there is no way a 1000hp motor is streetable, period. 300HP out of an h22 is going to require enough boost it will tear the motor up. You will end up having to fully build and re-sleeve the motor to properly acheive that output. Re-sleeving it should help solve the weak/thin cylinder issues, since they are being esstianlly replaced. However, it's not cheap to do, but if you are serious about boosting an H22 to that power level, it's a must.

LOL, dude, i know 1000 horses is not streetable!!!
can you imagine?? you'd have to have a new engine put in daily!!
it would be great tho!!!
dang 1000 hp on the street.......not gonna happen.
i'm hoping for above 300, and i do plan on a FULL rebuild of the engine, darton sleeves prolly, anyone know the cost of a rebuild/sleeve job?

About $1k-$1.2k just to get a b18 sleeved. I assume an H22 would be about the same.


P.S. I like rice.

LOL, dude, i know 1000 horses is not streetable!!!
can you imagine?? you'd have to have a new engine put in daily!!
it would be great tho!!!
dang 1000 hp on the street.......not gonna happen.
i'm hoping for above 300, and i do plan on a FULL rebuild of the engine, darton sleeves prolly, anyone know the cost of a rebuild/sleeve job?

Off the top of my head, about $1,000-$1,400 for a re-sleeve only (depending on what company you go with). Around $3500 maybe for a build bottom end (includes re-sleeving), and $2500 for the headwork. So maybe $5,000-$6,000 total. Again, these are just off the top of my head estimates, but it's a rough idea of cost. It's by no means cheap to build a motor.

dang, no it isn't, unless you can do it yourself...........................*wonders how much those tools cost

dang, no it isn't, unless you can do it yourself...........................*wonders how much those tools cost

Even if you know how do some of the work, I recommend you leave the porting and polishing to a qaulity head porter. Make sure to check around, ask for references. Also, with re-sleeving, I recommend either having a machine shop the manufactorer recommends do the work or actully send the shortblock to the manufactorer to be re-sleeve. AEBS makes very very good sleeves, so check them out. I perfer the way they fit and seal theirs over other brands (Darton, Golden Eagle). Darton isn't bad, but I recommend AEBS for sleeves, if you are serious. AEBS fits their sleeves with a 2000 interference fit into the block. It should run $1200-1400 to buy and have them install the sleeves (it's about $495 or so if you want to buy the sleeves and have your own machine shop do it, though I don't recommend this unless they actually know what they are doing.

considering all that talk about the LS and GSR blocks... would it be worth it to completely rebuild (except sleeving) a GSR or the LS block... which would put out better numbers with lower compression (9.0ish about) at around 15 psi? i'm looking to do a rebuild... would it just be easier to get an aftermarket block?

considering all that talk about the LS and GSR blocks... would it be worth it to completely rebuild (except sleeving) a GSR or the LS block... which would put out better numbers with lower compression (9.0ish about) at around 15 psi? i'm looking to do a rebuild... would it just be easier to get an aftermarket block?

If you rebuilt the engine the GSR (b18C1) would be better. The whole point was stock for the LS is a better choice-cheaper all around because it costs less to buy AND you don't have to spend insane money on engine management because of the high compression ratio. The LS engine can run 12 PSI safely on the internals on pump gas, it could go more on pump gas but the internals will not handle it. 12 PSI is a VERY safe number, I've seen 14 and 15 PSI boosted on stock internals for months on end-the guy with 15 PSI eventually cracked the sleeve though. The GSR can only boost 8, not because of the internals but because of the high compression ratio. The internals of the GSR are actually stouter, plus the oil squirters are a must for high boosted applications which the LS block doesn't have. You have to watch close for detonation on the GSR though, the LS boosting 12 isn't even close to detonation. But always remember there is more than just lack of octane that cause detonation, you must have enough fuel to be put in, also too much advance in your timing will cause detonation too.

If you are rebuilding PLEASE resleeve the block. You will kick yourself in the ass later if you don't splurge and do it now. If you don't do it you are limited to about 14 PSI-trust me once you get boosting you will want more and more. So do a rebuild with either DART or Golden eagle sleeves, JE or Wiseco pistons, crower or eagle rods, stock crank is sufficient. The stock block can handle lots of power, it's just the sleeves that don't hold up. Don't buy aftermarket, you only need it if you are planning insane numbers like 400+ WHP.
9:1 is a perfect compression ratio.

alright, so here is what i'm thinking... get a b18c1 engine swap, re-do all the internals (pistons, rods.. anything else?) get the block sleeved *really freaking expensive.. but if i'm boosting to 15 psi i guess i should do it right?* buy componenets for a turbo... : VATN turbo ($3000 pricetag but from what i hear; well worth the money) intercooler, aem ems, all the turbo goodies (bov, wastegate) custom stainless steel piping for the works, custom fabricated stainless steel tubular manifold... running boost at 15 psi.... anything i've forgotten?

My head is spinning after reading through this entire thread. B18C1 this, H22 that, B18C5 thataway, ay yi yi. Even after all the info i've read in this entire forum, i'm still nowhere near figuring out what engine i'd like to swap into my car. :banghead: :lol:

My head is spinning after reading through this entire thread. B18C1 this, H22 that, B18C5 thataway, ay yi yi. Even after all the info i've read in this entire forum, i'm still nowhere near figuring out what engine i'd like to swap into my car. :banghead: :lol:

It's simple, if you want to go N/A go B18C5. F/I go B18B1 or B18C1, I'll explain for F/I-
If you don't have a lot of money-go B18B1 swap. You don't have to touch the internals and you can get 250-270 HP out of it boosting 12 PSI.
B18C1 you have to rebuild the internals to lower the compression, plus sleeve the block to run 15+ PSI. That cost a lot, but will make way more power of course.
Now, if you have ''big plans'', but low on cash-buy the B18C1 but don't touch the internals-just boost 8 PSI. Now you have your foundation, save up year or two and yank it back out to rebuild.

There is a local shop that sells turbo ready motors, for 3000 bux sleeved w/ pistons, rods, and a crank on a stock head w/ cam gears, fuel presure reg, and injectors. I have seen these B18B motors taken to 400 whp w/ dyno tuning. (400whp on a honda Is more than you know what to do with). These motors ayso get over 100K w/ dyno tuning @32.5 psi daily driven motor. If you guys want details, I will call and ask.

alright, so here is what i'm thinking... get a b18c1 engine swap, re-do all the internals (pistons, rods.. anything else?) get the block sleeved *really freaking expensive.. but if i'm boosting to 15 psi i guess i should do it right?* buy componenets for a turbo... : VATN turbo ($3000 pricetag but from what i hear; well worth the money) intercooler, aem ems, all the turbo goodies (bov, wastegate) custom stainless steel piping for the works, custom fabricated stainless steel tubular manifold... running boost at 15 psi.... anything i've forgotten?

Don't waste your money on a VATN turbo, and if you only want 15 pounds of boost and 350-ish WHP don't waste your money on sleeves either. Plenty of people doing 400 and up WHP on the stock GSR sleeves with pistons and rods. Hell, one of the cars @ inlinepro went 10.5's @ 140 on a stock-sleeve GSR motor, so I think you're going to be OK in a more mild car.

no? what would you suggest for a turbo then? i'm in canada so i'm not too sure what kind of parts are available around here... i'd assume most things, but probably at a pretty hefty pricetag. yeah and by the way this car's got to be able to be daily driven.. need it to go to work and back every day...

no? what would you suggest for a turbo then? i'm in canada so i'm not too sure what kind of parts are available around here... i'd assume most things, but probably at a pretty hefty pricetag. yeah and by the way this car's got to be able to be daily driven.. need it to go to work and back every day...

For your turbo, i'd call up Art @ Laskey Racing. Their phone number is 949-400-0334, they are a PTE dealer and I got my turbo from them. I too am from Canada, it is incredibly expensive to buy and build stuff here, but you gotta pay to play.

i see, what part of canada are you in... because i'm on the west coast.. and that number sounds like it's from ontario or something... also.. what type of turbo is it (ball bearing.. size.??) and yes... it is a freaking kick in the pants to buy anything in this country

wow this thread is never gonna die is it. how many ppl can honestly say they read this whole thing.

i did!! took me like 10 min

damn thats pretty quick.

heh, yeah i guess... u get pretty quick at readin this stuff after 500+ hours of research... by the way.. how is that turbo timer working for you?

its not hooked up yet. me and my friend are gonna install it next weekend. its definitly a good mod. hopefully it will work well, alot of ppl seem to have the greddy turbo timer.

i see... lemmie know how it is when you install it.. i'm still deciding on which one to go with

there probaly all the same. the main companies who make turbo timers are greddy, apexi, blitz, and HKS. in fact i think there the only companies. i would go by price.

i see, what part of canada are you in... because i'm on the west coast.. and that number sounds like it's from ontario or something... also.. what type of turbo is it (ball bearing.. size.??) and yes... it is a freaking kick in the pants to buy anything in this country

I'm from Alberta/Saskatchewan, but I'm moving to the states this summer. The number is from California, but it's well worth the long distance charges. I'm running a PTE GT35R which I upgraded to from an SC61. It's a ball-bearing turbo, with a .82 A/R exhaust housing I start to see boost at 3300-ish, and I have 18 psi by just under 4500 RPM's. Makes a boat load of power, and has 680 HP potential.

I keep hearing people posting their opinions about why you shouldn't choose a motor - the turbo won't spool, the head flows better, the cylinder walls are too thin...

I would love to see some hard numbers. So far this is all speculation.

The question is: which engine will produce the most power when a turbo is bolted on.

Yes, the B18B has a lower CR and can run a higer boost on stock internals, but will a B18B @ 11lbs have more ponies then a B18C with 9lbs? Keep in mind that the higher compression ratio will help with power. Also, remember that the air is flowing through the VTEC head better.

The same concept holds true for cylinder walls: will the extra displacement from a H22 make up for having to run less boost to protect the cylinder walls?

As for the tranny, you can have any b-series tranny with a b-series motor (correct me if I'm wrong) so I'd choose it seperately. The concept holds true again with trannys. If your turbo spins up because you have longer gears, great...but who cares if you got blown away. Less horsepower doesn't always mean slower times. The top speed with longer gears should theroetically be higher, but how often do you expect to be doing over 160mph with stock internals? You would need some serious engine work and a good lawyer if you weren't on the track.

I would think that a crvtec (B20 w/VTEC head) with a thick headgasket to lower the CR boosted to 9lbs on stock internals would produce the most power. You would also have a great platform to work with later if you want to change the internals. But thats just a guess.

Again, I would love to see some hard, no BS numbers here.

alberta and saskatchewan eh... talented:p.. yeah i was wondering if the turbo was on your civic or your mustang.. also what kinda hp is it making.. like, numbers if u got em... another thing; how much did you pay for your turbo if you don't mind tellin me.. and damn that's a pretty quick spool up time.. gotta love the ball bearing eh

Hybrid Sol, do some research on all of AF, you will seem arguements where people post numbers, etc. Honestly though, a big chunk of it has to do with tuning. A GSR can be blown for power, we are not arguing that. A great part can depend on tuning and turbo selection. I don't feel like re-posting a lot of stuff, so read this thread...after all, that is what search is for. Anyways, read the entire thread. You asked for numbers and dynos, and this thread has some of that.

http://www.automotiveforums.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=185854&page=1&pp=15

The whole part about building a motor and what to choose is simple...how much money can you honestly spend in the end. Also, as far as an H22 goes, you won't corner wortht a damn, the added wait to the front creates bad understeer. H22's are more of a straight line only swap in a civic, another reason they arn't recommended often. You are also talking about trannies, you will notice a difference in MORE than just top speed with different trannies. The difference in gearing makes a difference throughout the ENTIRE RPM band, throughout ALL the gears. That's a lot more than top speed.

The question is a lot more than "The question is: which engine will produce the most power when a turbo is bolted on."

It depends on many things, how much boost your engine can SAFELY HANDLE, what kind of turbo, size housing, etc, you are getting, the tuning of it all. The besides that, what type of driving are you doing? A turbo with big lag is awful if you are autocrossing, you don't want it to spoool up and shoot out the extra power in mid turn. The right turbo and engine depends a lot more than just "which engine will produce the most power when a turbo is bolted on." It depends greatly on the end goals the person has for the car, on their finances. It's a lot more than "which engine will produce the most power when a turbo is bolted on. For a person looking to make 250hp who likes the twisties and doesn't have a deep pocket book, a B18B1 with a Disco Potato turbo will give him that power, with near instant spool up times, at a safe boost. However, if he's building an all-out drag car for sancationed compitition, this isn't the words greatest step up, that's for certain. If you want all-out power, check this. The Norwood Racing 4,000 hp Max-4 Integra Funnycar.

http://www.turbomagazine.com/tech/0202tur_extremeedge/

See, not all of the eqaution is power. Goals for the car, finances, and streetablity are also part of the eqaution for most people.

hahah WOW!!! that integra is freaking SICK!!! imagine rolling up to that thing at a light!!! :p

Honestly though, a big chunk of it has to do with tuning
I must completely agree here.

Hybrid Sol, do some research on all of AF, you will seem arguements where people post numbers, etc. http://www.automotiveforums.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=185854&page=1&pp=15

Yeah, I read that too. Big help. I want non-BS answers. One dyno says GSR @ 8 psi - 234hp/170trq, another says GSR @ 7psi - 241hp/172trq. It makes no sense, less boost on the same motor = more power!? I bet these numbers were reached using the scientific method. The biggest point I was trying to make was that with two very different motors, the amount of boost is not the only factor for power, and a turbo not spooling up all the way doesn't necessarily mean your quartermile time will be hurt if the gears are shorter. I want some supported numbers.

...you will notice a difference in MORE than just top speed with different trannies. The difference in gearing makes a difference throughout the ENTIRE RPM band, throughout ALL the gears. That's a lot more than top speed.
I know this. I was stating that the only unquestionable advantage of longer gears was the top speed, that is if you could make enough horsepower. Is there anyone out there who has driven the same turbo car, but with different trannys? What happened? I'd honestly like to know.

The question is a lot more than "The question is...It depends on many things, how much boost your engine can SAFELY HANDLE...
My understanding of the poll that stared this thread was bolting a turbo on a stock motor with potential to build it up over time. I also thought that it was understood that we weren't trying to produce enough horsepower on a stock motor for just long enough to launch one of the pistons into orbit.

if he's building an all-out drag car for sancationed compitition...See, not all of the eqaution is power. Goals for the car, finances, and streetablity are also part of the eqaution for most people.
Which is it though? "An all-out drag car" or an inexpensive streetable solution?
If he IS "building an all-out drag car" then I doubt he's using stock internals and the game completely changes.

Perhaps we should have 3 threads:
* What's the best motor to bolt a turbo onto for cheap (B18B/C???)?
* What's the best motor for a dragster? Probably a built H22.
* What's the best motor for autocross? Probably a built crvtec.

Well first I'll ask about the turbo dyno numbers. Was this both for the same turbo? I mean a larger turbo that pushes more CFM is going to produce more power than a smaller turbo boosting more PSI but less CFM. Like maybe the 8 PSI 234 HP was a 14G turbo, and the 241 HP on 7 PSI was a 16G turbo. I dunno, does somebody else know? But I was just pointing that out, it could be a good possibility.

One other thing, I believe this thread was started with the ''best but not so expensive streetable turbo engine'' in mind. Just my :2cents:

alberta and saskatchewan eh... talented:p.. yeah i was wondering if the turbo was on your civic or your mustang.. also what kinda hp is it making.. like, numbers if u got em... another thing; how much did you pay for your turbo if you don't mind tellin me.. and damn that's a pretty quick spool up time.. gotta love the ball bearing eh

Well, I stay at a friends house who lives in Melfort a lot (weekends and pretty much any other vacation time I get) do go motorbiking, ATVing, hunting, etc, but my place is in Fort Saskatchewan, so that's why I say both. I'm running the GT35R on my civic, it was 1400 bucks and worth every penny. I don't have any dyno numbers (as there are none out here!) but I have the car tuned to a pretty flat 11:1 AFR under boost, and at 18 psi i'd guess it's making around 400 WHP, which is pretty much useless on the street, even on BFG's. The turbo on my mustang is a PT76-GTS with a .96 A/R tang housing. I'm still fiddling with the AEM, but I am eventually going to put it on the rollers, my goal is 700 RWHP on 91 octane + meth injection , and 950+ RWHP on race gas. I purchased the turbo for 1395 dollars from induction motorsports.

http://www.turbomagazine.com/tech/0202tur_extremeedge/



I remember that car ;)

yea that car was crazy. did that even have a honda engine.

sorry to interject but dont you have to watch your oil pressure when your turbo/supercharging an engine. Thats what Ive heard. If so then the LS motor would probably be better for just stomping on the gas. Thats what Ive heard anyway

My understanding of the poll that stared this thread was bolting a turbo on a stock motor with potential to build it up over time. I also thought that it was understood that we weren't trying to produce enough horsepower on a stock motor for just long enough to launch one of the pistons into orbit.

This thread is way off that topic by now...it's been dead and re-born more times than I care to remember. If we are talking best engine to on boost on stock internals without launching one of the pistons into orbit, then most people will agree that the B18B1 is the best motor to boost in this aspect.

No PWAN, the cars had 2 different turbos. They were both completly different turbos. As we know, this will effect the power output, even if both turobs are at the same PSI. That's why I tried to tell him part of the power eqaution is what turbo should choose to run. That's why it's hard to compare dynos of 2 different cars with 2 different motors and 2 different turbos. When you add in the fact they most likely used 2 different dynos, it's a nightmare. Different Dynos will show different power outputs for the exact same car. That's why you always baseline on a dyno every time you tune, even if you already think you "know" the baseline power number. Turbo magazine has an article on this, one 350Z, 7 dynos, all in one day. The power output each dyno showed was different. The range from the lowest output one of the dynos showed the highest was upwards to 30HP. As we know, the car didn't flucuate that much. It wasn't modified during this. Same set-up, same car, same motor. Just different dynos. That's why the article was titled "Dynos Lie, We prove it."

F23A4Racer750IL, it's not a Honda motor. Everthing about that car's motor was completely custom, right down to the block. As they say, with money all is possible

I dunno, I wish I had the shorter gearing in my GSR, I would go faster.

I dunno if anyone touched on this subject, but what about a H23 engine w/ the H22 head swap. It will have less compression than the 9.8 w/ the larger displacement and about 9.3 comp ratio. Plus its got more displacement.

I dunno if anyone touched on this subject, but what about a H23 engine w/ the H22 head swap. It will have less compression than the 9.8 w/ the larger displacement and about 9.3 comp ratio. Plus its got more displacement.

First off, I know you weren't the person who brought this thread bacl to life...so this isn't directed at just you. Try not to post in older threads when possible...

now for your question...

The H22 has thin cylinder walls, which can't handle much more than 8psi. I don't know for sure, but I would assume the H23 walls are thin like that also...though I'd want to check into it before saying that for sure. I do know that the H22 has thin cylinder walls and therefor can;t handle much above 8psi on stock internals. Either way, that motor will throw off the weight balance of the car, creating mega understeer, You would be able to turn worth anything, it's not worth it IMO...however....if you have an Accord...this is a much better option than an F22, as the b-series ins't an option in an accord.

Ya see I'm a huge fan of preludes but now this poll is making me sway towards the integra side, cuz i wanna run boost no matter what and i think a ls/vtec is gonna be the best or maybe get the GSR and just put low comp pistons

A boosted LS/Vtec can make massive amounts of power, but it will generally be a pretty volitile setup. If I were you, I'd go with a boosted B18C1 with low comp pistons (like you said). You'll make plenty of power and have a more reliable engine.

A LS/Vtec can be a very good motor if built correctly and tuned corrdctly for redline, etc...

There is a recent thread in here somewhere where someone asked, so we talked about that.

4g63

wow I really missed this thread.. thanks for bringing it back from it's grave 4 months ago.

12psi on c1 or c5 is alot, but can be done. as for 300hp i dont know. even with engine management, youll have to run it rich as hell to preven detonation, and running rich will lower your hp. the ls has lower compression and a tad more displacement. also since the cams arent performance oriented towards N/A power you get more boost kept in. i also disagree the ls is better then the gsr or other like tranny, to a certain degree. a car without long gears thats turbo are the 6-speeders(like skylines; they have crossed ratios). main reason why is first gear, for turbo you want a short(numerically high) first gear to help reduce lag and get you into the power band. but, highway racing, a ls geared turbo motor will have advantage over gsr.

well I guess if its not going to die I might as well add to it. my vote would be to the b16a2
http://www.importbuilders.com/turbosetup.html