knuckles and hubs for std model b16 swap
lowboy
07-13-2003, 11:25 PM
are these all i need to swap my std model hubs for the si hubs and knuckles??
i have the std model civic and need to replace these hubs for the b16 transplant.. is this all i need?? please help!!!!
i have the std model civic and need to replace these hubs for the b16 transplant.. is this all i need?? please help!!!!
91civicDXdude
07-13-2003, 11:49 PM
you can use 88-91 DX/Si/LX/EX hubs, and with an alignment, 90-93 integra non ABS hubs as well, only they will throw your alignment all out of wack. my brother just put 90 LS hubs on his 91 STD hatch, they fit right on, the brakes are nice, but his alignment is shot.
Alan Wil
10-31-2003, 03:40 PM
you can use 88-91 DX/Si/LX/EX hubs, and with an alignment, 90-93 integra non ABS hubs as well, only they will throw your alignment all out of wack. my brother just put 90 LS hubs on his 91 STD hatch, they fit right on, the brakes are nice, but his alignment is shot.
91civicDXdude,
We’ve talked before.. But I have brain fade at the moment.
Did your brother ever have his car aligned? What I’m looking for is someone who has done the swap, and has a PRINT-OUT of the alignment settings.
Can I sweet talk you /him into having it run by a alignment place for a FREE, FREE, FREE alignment check to what the settings are at? To see EXACTLY how caster, camber, etc is affected?
Some people are saying the swap screws up CASTER. If so if we knew by how much, and which way (+/-) it was affected that problem I feel could be overcome “cheaply” to make the swap worthwhile.
PS: Took a car by last week for a check, took all of 43 minutes from the front counter to the time I was driving down the road with a PRINT-OUT of the alignment settings.
91civicDXdude,
We’ve talked before.. But I have brain fade at the moment.
Did your brother ever have his car aligned? What I’m looking for is someone who has done the swap, and has a PRINT-OUT of the alignment settings.
Can I sweet talk you /him into having it run by a alignment place for a FREE, FREE, FREE alignment check to what the settings are at? To see EXACTLY how caster, camber, etc is affected?
Some people are saying the swap screws up CASTER. If so if we knew by how much, and which way (+/-) it was affected that problem I feel could be overcome “cheaply” to make the swap worthwhile.
PS: Took a car by last week for a check, took all of 43 minutes from the front counter to the time I was driving down the road with a PRINT-OUT of the alignment settings.
91civicDXdude
10-31-2003, 07:17 PM
well i know that the spindle arm itself is physically about 2 inches longer than the civic one. this positions the top a arm at a radical angle compared to what it should be, and compared to the lower arms as well. I've helped all i can, seriously if you want to check it out, then do it. using someone else's "measurements" isnt the best idea, if you feel that you can "overcome it", then get a set and put them on and try to fix it. what good would knowing the actual numbers be? get a set, slap them on, take it to get it checked.
Alan Wil
11-01-2003, 08:00 AM
well i know that the spindle arm itself is physically about 2 inches longer than the civic one. this positions the top a arm at a radical angle compared to what it should be, and compared to the lower arms as well. I've helped all i can, seriously if you want to check it out, then do it. using someone else's "measurements" isnt the best idea, if you feel that you can "overcome it", then get a set and put them on and try to fix it. what good would knowing the actual numbers be? get a set, slap them on, take it to get it checked.
Ah: Integra Knuckle is 2 inches TALLER than Civic part. Upper arm runs at a radical angle to the lower… (That is GOOD info)
91civicDXdude,
You can’t see the value of “seeing” someone else’s alignment specs after such a swap is done? Especially after hearing from some people the swap works, and then from others that it doesn’t?
(Using that same line of reasoning next time YOU have a question about something…. Just DO it…. Put that 3.2 L V-6 in there, yea man it’ fit, Have a TURBO question… JUST DO IT… Don’t ask. After all it’s only time and money. )
Wouldn’t it be nice to know by how much each parameter is changed from someone who has done it? And what work-around (details) were necessary to make the swap work? You can’t see the value of actually SEEING a copy of the alignment printout, Especially since alignment checks are FREE at most places?
PS: I believe you said your brother was bitching about the way he car drove? .
You mean to tell me your brother NEVER got his car aligned?
FYI: That upper arm running at the wrong angle would explain why he was unhappy with the way the car drove.
Ah: Integra Knuckle is 2 inches TALLER than Civic part. Upper arm runs at a radical angle to the lower… (That is GOOD info)
91civicDXdude,
You can’t see the value of “seeing” someone else’s alignment specs after such a swap is done? Especially after hearing from some people the swap works, and then from others that it doesn’t?
(Using that same line of reasoning next time YOU have a question about something…. Just DO it…. Put that 3.2 L V-6 in there, yea man it’ fit, Have a TURBO question… JUST DO IT… Don’t ask. After all it’s only time and money. )
Wouldn’t it be nice to know by how much each parameter is changed from someone who has done it? And what work-around (details) were necessary to make the swap work? You can’t see the value of actually SEEING a copy of the alignment printout, Especially since alignment checks are FREE at most places?
PS: I believe you said your brother was bitching about the way he car drove? .
You mean to tell me your brother NEVER got his car aligned?
FYI: That upper arm running at the wrong angle would explain why he was unhappy with the way the car drove.
91civicDXdude
11-01-2003, 11:24 AM
its not that im trying to be a dick, but i've helped all i can for the WEEKS you have been asking me about this swap. If you're going to do it, then just do it. I told you its shafty, I told you the suspension wasnt designed for the car, i told you it messes up the alignment. If YOU think you can fix it, then please be my guest, but its too much of a pain in the ass for me.
and btw, there is only so much an alignment shop can do.. some things just arent adjustable, unless you rig them up.
and btw, there is only so much an alignment shop can do.. some things just arent adjustable, unless you rig them up.
Alan Wil
11-01-2003, 01:03 PM
its not that im trying to be a dick, but i've helped all i can for the WEEKS you have been asking me about this swap. If you're going to do it, then just do it. I told you its shafty, I told you the suspension wasnt designed for the car, i told you it messes up the alignment. If YOU think you can fix it, then please be my guest, but its too much of a pain in the ass for me.
and btw, there is only so much an alignment shop can do.. some things just arent adjustable, unless you rig them up.
91civicDXdude,
Yes I’ve been asking around for a while but we talked on 10-07 twice, and maybe once or twice via the forum? Just only yesterday in your post dated 10-31-2003, 08:17 PM (Two posts up in this thread) you say for the first time that the steering knuckle is 2 inches longer (higher?) than the OEM part, which causes the upper control arm to run at a radical angle to the lower control arm compared to OEM. I may be wrong but I don’t think you mentioned that “little” important detail before… (I lost allot of my e-mails during a system restore) I don’t think you mentioned that before though. If so I do apologize.
That steering knuckle being 2 inches “longer” /higher? is the kind of info I was trying to find out about before doing anything. (Especially since it’s my WIFES car... Can you relate to that?)
So you say, just go ahead and do it…But there’s no sense in wasting time and money IF the steering knuckle is indeed 2 inches taller than the Civic one. That steering knuckle being 2 inches taller /higher than the stock one is a VERY important detail. You do know what that does to steering geometry and roll center heights when the knuckle height is 2 inches more than stock? I haven’t plotted the effects of such yet, but if screws up the balance of the car.
(Wish I had heard the Integra parts are 2 inches taller BEFORE I bought the parts LOL, so I’ve already wasted money, and a good bit of time).
* * * *
91civicDXdude, wrote:
#1 “using integra spindles (steering knuckles) will generally now throw your alignment totally out of wack like some people think, what it will do (on a stock ride height car) will give it a little negative camber.. meaning the wheels will be like \ /. but once you lower the car, instead of the wheels being like / \, they will be | | without purchasing a camber kit. the toe will be a little off, but ANY alignment problems can be corrected with a complete wheel alignment.
#2 91 civic STD, 90 Integra LS. you only want to swap the spindles. if you swap the other suspension parts, it will not work as your alignment will be entirely off. My brother drove his car at the strip numerous times without a wheel alignment after using integra hubs, it wasnt *that* bad, although he did complain that the steering just didnt "feel the same"
** *** *
Notice that it is said above ANY alignment problems will be corrected with a complete wheel alignment. Well technically you may be right about the “alignment settings” being within usable specs. But IF the steering knuckle is indeed “taller/longer/higher” than the OEM parts the car would drive /handle like crap, regardless of caster, camber, and toe-in.
The above were two separate messages. If you were to read #1, you’d think everything was ok. Only #2 gives a hint that something is amiss. The problem with the info in #2 is he says his brother was driving the car, but a wheel alignment had NOT been done. So does the car feel different because the alignment have not been done… Or is it because the Integra steering knuckle is 2 inches taller than the Civic one?
NOTE: another gentlemen here (Ev0lution7) posted a link to a personal webpage that had pic’s of the Integra kunckles. side by side with the Civic kunckles. He said the height/ offset, fitment, etc of the Integra parts and Civic ones are the SAME, the only differance is the Integra parts are ‘beefier” and the arm that the tie-rod attaches to is in a slightly different place (maybe). Now a few mm may not be noticed, (which would after caster /camber, etc) but a 2 inch difference???? Would be sort-of hard to miss that!
Anyone here remember that post? > > > Update here it is: http://www.automotiveforums.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=99774&highlight=stop+spreading+Integra
User name is Ev0lution7.
91civicDXdude.. I want you to know I do GREATLY appreciate you taking the time to write back. Like I said it’s my wife’s car. You sort-of got to be “careful” when your messing with the boss’s car you know.
I was hoping that your brother could be contacted and that he would have some usable info. Was hoping to talk to him directly as allot of things get overlooked when you are going through another person.
Thanks,
and btw, there is only so much an alignment shop can do.. some things just arent adjustable, unless you rig them up.
91civicDXdude,
Yes I’ve been asking around for a while but we talked on 10-07 twice, and maybe once or twice via the forum? Just only yesterday in your post dated 10-31-2003, 08:17 PM (Two posts up in this thread) you say for the first time that the steering knuckle is 2 inches longer (higher?) than the OEM part, which causes the upper control arm to run at a radical angle to the lower control arm compared to OEM. I may be wrong but I don’t think you mentioned that “little” important detail before… (I lost allot of my e-mails during a system restore) I don’t think you mentioned that before though. If so I do apologize.
That steering knuckle being 2 inches “longer” /higher? is the kind of info I was trying to find out about before doing anything. (Especially since it’s my WIFES car... Can you relate to that?)
So you say, just go ahead and do it…But there’s no sense in wasting time and money IF the steering knuckle is indeed 2 inches taller than the Civic one. That steering knuckle being 2 inches taller /higher than the stock one is a VERY important detail. You do know what that does to steering geometry and roll center heights when the knuckle height is 2 inches more than stock? I haven’t plotted the effects of such yet, but if screws up the balance of the car.
(Wish I had heard the Integra parts are 2 inches taller BEFORE I bought the parts LOL, so I’ve already wasted money, and a good bit of time).
* * * *
91civicDXdude, wrote:
#1 “using integra spindles (steering knuckles) will generally now throw your alignment totally out of wack like some people think, what it will do (on a stock ride height car) will give it a little negative camber.. meaning the wheels will be like \ /. but once you lower the car, instead of the wheels being like / \, they will be | | without purchasing a camber kit. the toe will be a little off, but ANY alignment problems can be corrected with a complete wheel alignment.
#2 91 civic STD, 90 Integra LS. you only want to swap the spindles. if you swap the other suspension parts, it will not work as your alignment will be entirely off. My brother drove his car at the strip numerous times without a wheel alignment after using integra hubs, it wasnt *that* bad, although he did complain that the steering just didnt "feel the same"
** *** *
Notice that it is said above ANY alignment problems will be corrected with a complete wheel alignment. Well technically you may be right about the “alignment settings” being within usable specs. But IF the steering knuckle is indeed “taller/longer/higher” than the OEM parts the car would drive /handle like crap, regardless of caster, camber, and toe-in.
The above were two separate messages. If you were to read #1, you’d think everything was ok. Only #2 gives a hint that something is amiss. The problem with the info in #2 is he says his brother was driving the car, but a wheel alignment had NOT been done. So does the car feel different because the alignment have not been done… Or is it because the Integra steering knuckle is 2 inches taller than the Civic one?
NOTE: another gentlemen here (Ev0lution7) posted a link to a personal webpage that had pic’s of the Integra kunckles. side by side with the Civic kunckles. He said the height/ offset, fitment, etc of the Integra parts and Civic ones are the SAME, the only differance is the Integra parts are ‘beefier” and the arm that the tie-rod attaches to is in a slightly different place (maybe). Now a few mm may not be noticed, (which would after caster /camber, etc) but a 2 inch difference???? Would be sort-of hard to miss that!
Anyone here remember that post? > > > Update here it is: http://www.automotiveforums.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=99774&highlight=stop+spreading+Integra
User name is Ev0lution7.
91civicDXdude.. I want you to know I do GREATLY appreciate you taking the time to write back. Like I said it’s my wife’s car. You sort-of got to be “careful” when your messing with the boss’s car you know.
I was hoping that your brother could be contacted and that he would have some usable info. Was hoping to talk to him directly as allot of things get overlooked when you are going through another person.
Thanks,
91civicDXdude
11-02-2003, 08:57 AM
okay heres the final word from me.
We swapped the brakes on together, i was there for the installation. Everything bolts right up. the Integra spindle is physically taller than the civic one, although 2" might have been an exaggeration, but yes, they are physically taller. the top A arm sits at a non-parallel angle to the lower suspension. This is the sole reason for the camber changes.
impressions..
after driving the car I myself noticed the braking was drastically improved, although the car's steering didnt feel right. I cant exactly explain it, but the car just seemed to not handle like it used to. an example is the steering wheel returns to center very wildly compared to the stock knuckles. Also, the steering feels very sloppily side to side, but i *belive* that can be fixed with a wheel alignment.
From everything that i myself have researched before doing this swap, it seems the majority of people belive a full wheel alignement will solve most of the problems assocated with "weird" handling. I had a talk with my brother about this just yesterday, he says he doesnt recommend doing the swap, and it would be proper to only use EX spindles. I on the other hand belive it will work with a wheel alignment, seeing as how he did not get the car aligned after swapping the integra knuckles.
The general consensus is that they work. Use your own judgement. The reason i said to just do it and see how it works is becuase you may or may not like the results. In any case, put the stock ones back on if you are not satisfied.
We swapped the brakes on together, i was there for the installation. Everything bolts right up. the Integra spindle is physically taller than the civic one, although 2" might have been an exaggeration, but yes, they are physically taller. the top A arm sits at a non-parallel angle to the lower suspension. This is the sole reason for the camber changes.
impressions..
after driving the car I myself noticed the braking was drastically improved, although the car's steering didnt feel right. I cant exactly explain it, but the car just seemed to not handle like it used to. an example is the steering wheel returns to center very wildly compared to the stock knuckles. Also, the steering feels very sloppily side to side, but i *belive* that can be fixed with a wheel alignment.
From everything that i myself have researched before doing this swap, it seems the majority of people belive a full wheel alignement will solve most of the problems assocated with "weird" handling. I had a talk with my brother about this just yesterday, he says he doesnt recommend doing the swap, and it would be proper to only use EX spindles. I on the other hand belive it will work with a wheel alignment, seeing as how he did not get the car aligned after swapping the integra knuckles.
The general consensus is that they work. Use your own judgement. The reason i said to just do it and see how it works is becuase you may or may not like the results. In any case, put the stock ones back on if you are not satisfied.
Alan Wil
11-02-2003, 02:29 PM
okay heres the final word from me.
We swapped the brakes on together, i was there for the installation. Everything bolts right up. the Integra spindle is physically taller than the civic one, although 2" might have been an exaggeration, but yes, they are physically taller. the top A arm sits at a non-parallel angle to the lower suspension. This is the sole reason for the camber changes.
impressions..
after driving the car I myself noticed the braking was drastically improved, although the car's steering didnt feel right. I cant exactly explain it, but the car just seemed to not handle like it used to. an example is the steering wheel returns to center very wildly compared to the stock knuckles. Also, the steering feels very sloppily side to side, but i *belive* that can be fixed with a wheel alignment.
From everything that i myself have researched before doing this swap, it seems the majority of people belive a full wheel alignement will solve most of the problems assocated with "weird" handling. I had a talk with my brother about this just yesterday, he says he doesnt recommend doing the swap, and it would be proper to only use EX spindles. I on the other hand belive it will work with a wheel alignment, seeing as how he did not get the car aligned after swapping the integra knuckles.
The general consensus is that they work. Use your own judgement. The reason i said to just do it and see how it works is becuase you may or may not like the results. In any case, put the stock ones back on if you are not satisfied.
91civicDXdude,
Now the above is a “GOOD” post. Lots better than saying, “It will work, but it screws up your alignment”.
So your brother has still not gotten a wheel alignment????? Didn’t you do the swap a few months ago? Why doesn’t he take about an hour and run it by an alignment shop for a FREE, FREE, FREE Check?
(I really don’t understand why he wouldn’t… When he does have him get a “Before and AFTER” Printout of the results. If you want e-mail me a scan of the printout and I’ll post it if you can’t.)
Remember the “check” is FREE. IF they find that “toe” is out by say ¼ inches, he could decline them adjusting it and take it home to adjust it himself. He may find that a simple adjustment would make the car drive much better and be a much safer car also. You wouldn’t want your brother to wreck and get killed when a simple adjustment would have enabled him to maintain control of the car would you? If he was my “brother” I’d get him to have it checked ASAP, Or take the car in myself if he was my "brother".
Another poster here: 91EF3ZC (Mike) was unhappy with his car, (Car feels unstable, scary to drive-especially in the rain, etc) … He ran his car by for a FREE alignment check…. And they corrected the problem for FREE I think. (His toe was out) . Before the “check” he was saying he didn’t have the "time" to have a “Check” done….
Now Mike says: “I'm so glad I did it now. The car rides so good, It's like when I first got it.
I can't believe it.”
Please post the results here: http://www.automotiveforums.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=140604&page=1&pp=15
The info may help others who cannot find the Civic EX to do a big brakes swap. Anyone who does an engine /power upgrade should be interested in having the car stop fast as well as go-fast. Some cannot afford to buy “commercial" big brake kits, especially after buying a turbo, and or doing an engine swap.
Look forward to seeing some info about your “brother’s” alignment check. Make sure to post how much the car is lowered, year/model of car etc.
Thanks again for the info (and keep those GOOD posts coming),
We swapped the brakes on together, i was there for the installation. Everything bolts right up. the Integra spindle is physically taller than the civic one, although 2" might have been an exaggeration, but yes, they are physically taller. the top A arm sits at a non-parallel angle to the lower suspension. This is the sole reason for the camber changes.
impressions..
after driving the car I myself noticed the braking was drastically improved, although the car's steering didnt feel right. I cant exactly explain it, but the car just seemed to not handle like it used to. an example is the steering wheel returns to center very wildly compared to the stock knuckles. Also, the steering feels very sloppily side to side, but i *belive* that can be fixed with a wheel alignment.
From everything that i myself have researched before doing this swap, it seems the majority of people belive a full wheel alignement will solve most of the problems assocated with "weird" handling. I had a talk with my brother about this just yesterday, he says he doesnt recommend doing the swap, and it would be proper to only use EX spindles. I on the other hand belive it will work with a wheel alignment, seeing as how he did not get the car aligned after swapping the integra knuckles.
The general consensus is that they work. Use your own judgement. The reason i said to just do it and see how it works is becuase you may or may not like the results. In any case, put the stock ones back on if you are not satisfied.
91civicDXdude,
Now the above is a “GOOD” post. Lots better than saying, “It will work, but it screws up your alignment”.
So your brother has still not gotten a wheel alignment????? Didn’t you do the swap a few months ago? Why doesn’t he take about an hour and run it by an alignment shop for a FREE, FREE, FREE Check?
(I really don’t understand why he wouldn’t… When he does have him get a “Before and AFTER” Printout of the results. If you want e-mail me a scan of the printout and I’ll post it if you can’t.)
Remember the “check” is FREE. IF they find that “toe” is out by say ¼ inches, he could decline them adjusting it and take it home to adjust it himself. He may find that a simple adjustment would make the car drive much better and be a much safer car also. You wouldn’t want your brother to wreck and get killed when a simple adjustment would have enabled him to maintain control of the car would you? If he was my “brother” I’d get him to have it checked ASAP, Or take the car in myself if he was my "brother".
Another poster here: 91EF3ZC (Mike) was unhappy with his car, (Car feels unstable, scary to drive-especially in the rain, etc) … He ran his car by for a FREE alignment check…. And they corrected the problem for FREE I think. (His toe was out) . Before the “check” he was saying he didn’t have the "time" to have a “Check” done….
Now Mike says: “I'm so glad I did it now. The car rides so good, It's like when I first got it.
I can't believe it.”
Please post the results here: http://www.automotiveforums.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=140604&page=1&pp=15
The info may help others who cannot find the Civic EX to do a big brakes swap. Anyone who does an engine /power upgrade should be interested in having the car stop fast as well as go-fast. Some cannot afford to buy “commercial" big brake kits, especially after buying a turbo, and or doing an engine swap.
Look forward to seeing some info about your “brother’s” alignment check. Make sure to post how much the car is lowered, year/model of car etc.
Thanks again for the info (and keep those GOOD posts coming),
91civicDXdude
11-03-2003, 12:17 AM
he wont be getting the car aligned becuase he is turning his 90 STD hatchback into a full race car, and big brakes just add more weight. I might however try to get the spindles and brakes from him and do a wheel alignment. I drove his car and it feels pretty scary, but the braking power is awesome. so until then, you are on your own. :)
Alan Wil
11-03-2003, 10:48 AM
he wont be getting the car aligned becuase he is turning his 90 STD hatchback into a full race car, and big brakes just add more weight. I might however try to get the spindles and brakes from him and do a wheel alignment. I drove his car and it feels pretty scary, but the braking power is awesome. so until then, you are on your own. :)
91civicDXdude,
Thanks for the clarification on why your brother never got the car aligned. I am amazed he ran the car at the drag strip without an alignment. To do high-speed runs with an unstable car is a good/fast way to get yourself killed you know. He has parked the car since then, right?
Anyhow,
It would be nice if he (or you) "could" go by and get a printout of his specs before the brakes are taken off his car, Or when you put them on YOUR car.
It would be great to compare the alignment specs to what 91EF3ZC /Mike provided about his 1991 Si. So far 91EF3ZC /Mike is the ONLY person to provide data about his alignment specs.
PS: Sorry for staying on you for the details.
Please post ANY further details in the below thread.
http://www.automotiveforums.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=140604
Thanks,
91civicDXdude,
Thanks for the clarification on why your brother never got the car aligned. I am amazed he ran the car at the drag strip without an alignment. To do high-speed runs with an unstable car is a good/fast way to get yourself killed you know. He has parked the car since then, right?
Anyhow,
It would be nice if he (or you) "could" go by and get a printout of his specs before the brakes are taken off his car, Or when you put them on YOUR car.
It would be great to compare the alignment specs to what 91EF3ZC /Mike provided about his 1991 Si. So far 91EF3ZC /Mike is the ONLY person to provide data about his alignment specs.
PS: Sorry for staying on you for the details.
Please post ANY further details in the below thread.
http://www.automotiveforums.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=140604
Thanks,
Automotive Network, Inc., Copyright ©2026