Front end noise

I have an '02 Windstar (Mr. Breeze).

I started hearing a "roaring" noise from the front end a few weeks back. It sounded just like the sound I heard when the left front wheel bearing was going bad, so I replaced the right side. The noise diminished, but didn't go away, then it started getting louder again. So yesterday, I jacked it up to see if there was anything obvous. The tie rod ends seem to be tight, but there is a little wiggle when I grab the wheel at 3 and 9 (maybe a quarter of an inch), but no movement when I try with hands at 12 and 6. I stuck my head in the wheel well, and looks like the "post" on the ball joint is moving in the pinch clamp. I re-checked the torque on the pinch bolt for both. The one on the right was fine, but I got maybe a sixth or a quarter turn on the side where I just replaced the bearing. This morning, she was quieter again, but I still have noise.

I'm going to replace the front tires because I read a thread that someone had similar problems and new tires fixed it. The tires are due anyway because the tread is getting thin and one has developed a slow leak.

If that doesn't solve the problem, does it sound like it might be the ball joints? Has anyone ever had a similar experience of the ball joints being ok, but the posts were worn?

A bad ball joint wouldn't cause a "roar" noise.

Is the roar synced with the wheel rotation or is it just a steady sound?

It's a steady roaring/rumbling sound that gets louder with speed.

It's not the ball joint itself that seems to be loose, it's where the ball joint fits into the steering knuckle.

Is it normal for there to be some side to side play in the wheel? It's not much, but it's there.

The pin should be pinched solidly by the knuckle. If it has been like that for a while then the knuckle could be worn to the point where it won't pinch no matter how tight the pinch bolt is torqued.

I agree with Tomj76; I think you should be in the market for a new knuckle. Probably comes with bearing installed. I would also consider going ahead and replacing lower control arm(s). Will make all your steering issues disappear, I would guess.
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I've never replaced knuckle or bearings on my near-400k mile '99, but I have replaced link ends and anti-sway bar bushings ... a couple of times. Recently replaced struts and lower control arms ... quite a wrestle!

Before you go nuts replacing stuff, and especially since you replaced the bearings, get your wheels balanced. Always tackle fundamentals first! Most of the time you get lifetime balancing when you buy your tires anyway so get that done FIRST before throwing any parts at this issue.

A speed-relative rumbling or vibration would not be knuckle, control arm, ball joint, etc. It has to be something with the wheel or the bearing.

I'll bet you an Al's beef that your wheels are out of balance! (I'll meet you half way at the location downtown to settle up! heh)

Thank you, Scubacat. That's exactly what I intend to do. I did a search before posting, and someone else was having similar problems and replaced a bunch of parts without solving the problem. In the end, it turned out to be his tires. My fronts are about due for replacement anyway, so I'm going to have them replaced and all the tires balanced this week-end.

I posted the question to get suggestions as to what to look at if that doesn't make the noise go away.

The noise is almost definitely wheel balance. It's always the simplest thing and it's OFTEN overlooked. Definitely replace your tires if they're worn, but getting the wheels balanced is what will eliminate the noise.

We're talking safety as well as performance here. Yes, I agree ... much of the unsavory ride will go away with new, balanced tires. But when I read of a lower control arm ball joint that cannot be properly clamped ... well, just forgive an old guy who will spend more bucks for safety, than most, perhaps.

Thank you for your concern, 12Ounce, I do appreciate it. I'm not positive that the ball joint posts are not being clamped properly, it just looked like they might be moving. I've been going to this shop for a while, and if there's a problem with them, they will tell me. They don't "shop" the car, but they do let me know if they see something that needs fixing. The first replacement of the ball joints was because they noticed the the problem when replacing tires.

I've just never heard of the ball joint pinch joint wearing like that. I suppose it's possible.

Anytime I sense a safety issue that I'm not sure of, I get it checked out by a reputable shop. I definitely concur with your getting it checked if you have any concern that there may be an issue!

The way to check for a good pinch is to use a pry bar (with good leverage) to "lift" the knuckle up while the control arm is acting as the fulcrum. If you can move the knuckle away from the control arm, then it isn't pinched. As mentioned, it is not safe when the pin is not firmly pinched in the knuckle.

Also, the pin is shaped so that the pinch bolt will keep it from popping out of the knuckle as long as the bolt is in place, which adds a measure of safety. However, when the knuckle isn't pinching the pin tightly, the pin moves up and down in the knuckle hole, this wears the pin smaller and the hole in the knuckle bigger, which is why the knuckle might need to be replaced. (Alert: they are not inexpensive parts!)

Incidentally this situation can start when the slot in the knuckle is damaged while spreading the hole to allow the pin to slide out. If the wedge used to open the hole is too "steep" it dimples the faces of the slot which keeps the slot from closing completely.

Well, it wasn't the tires. Shop says that the inner tie rods are loose, as well as the ball joints. So I know what I'll be doing this Saturday. Fortunately the ball joints I bought earlier are lifetime warranty, and the tie rods are not terribly expensive.

Is there anything I can do to get the alignment at least close in case I don't have time left to get an alignment done this week-end?

Count the threads from the jam nut to the outer and match that up when you install the new. Or you can count the number of rotations when spinning off the nut in the same manner.

In spite of doing that, you still need to take it directly to an alignment shop before driving it extensively. They said BOTH inners were loose? Did you hit a curb at full speed or something?

The simplest approach is to count the number of turns of the outer tie rod end as you remove it from the tie rod. Thread the replacements the same amount for an approximate alilgnment.

It may help to center the steering wheel and before you start then measure the distance from the center of the outer tie rod end to the frame or another part that is perminantly attached to the frame, along the same direction as the tie rod. You'll need to take fairly accurate measurements to do this.

I've seen where people have made giant calipars (from PVC pipe) to measure the difference in distance between the inside of the front tires in front of the knuckle and behind the knuckle. This helps make sure you have the right toe-in. Apparently it can work very well, but I've never tried it.

Thanks, tomj. I found a youtube video where they marked the old one with electrical tape at the edge of the outer end, then marked the new one at the same distance. I think I'll do that as well as counting the turns in case the new tie rod isn't exactly the same length as the old one.

You may want to double check your steering rack to make sure it is ok with both inner tie rods being loose, hate to see you do all the work and find out your rack is bad.

Thank you tempfixit. How do I go about checking the rack?

Here is a video that should help.

http://youtu.be/DMN-2R_fSz4

Remember that a new rack comes with new inner tie rods. Food for thought in case it has issues. (No sense replacing them separately if the rack is worn or leaking...)

Thanks, Scubacat. I don't think there are any problems with the rack. The steering has always been very responsive, and doesn't make noise. Other than looking for leaks, is there anything else I should check regarding the rack?

Update - blessed silence. Over the week-end, I replaced the control arms and the left front hub. She started making a scary rattling noise on Thursday in addition to the roaring noise. When I jacked her up to get started, I did the "wiggle test" on both tires, and when I grabbed the left front at 12 and 6, there was noticeable movement, so I ran out and picked up a new hub. I'd had the hub replaced a number of years back, so I never suspected it. It probably didn't start to really disintegrate until this past week, which is why the shop didn't catch it. Now I'm wondering whether the right front was bad to begin with. I figured it had to be the culprit because it was still original. That old ass-u-me thing again.

Anyway, the left side came out and the new one went back in a lot more easily than the right side.

I tried to do the tie rods, too, but the tool from Auto Zone is not the right kind for these tie rod ends, so it looks like I'll have to have the shop do them. I was thinking about going to Advance or O'Reilly's to see if they had the right tool, then I thought I remembered that there is also a pin that has to be driven out. If so, I don't see any way to get in there to do it (just getting the inner boot hold down band was bad enough), and I'm not about to mess with taking the rack out myself. Am I correct that there's a pin that has to be removed? My Haynes manual does not have a section for the inner tie rod r&r.
Even though the noise is gone, when I was working with the tie rods, getting the boots off, I could tell that they were much looser than the replacements.

Glad you are making progress. I would advise using the hammer sparingly or not at all around the hubs ... the bearing races can be easily fractured with "impacts". I have been lucky with my 99 ... it has original hubs and bearings with nearly 400k miles. But I have never use a hammer when doing any work around the hubs. I have replaced the struts and lower control arms .. once.
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On the other hand, I have replaced the rack a couple of/few times ... and the tie rod "outers" probably 3 or 4 times. I have never tried to replace the "inners" because they come with a new rack. Many aftermarkets sell racks with a lifetime warranty ... so you only have to buy once. Worn racks scare me, and I wonder how many accidents they have caused ... with no one understanding "what happened" ..."why did this person steer into traffic"?

Thank you 12Ounce. I only use a hammer for getting the old hub free of the knuckle, not for installation. So far, I have not had a problem with the rack, so I'm just going to replace the rods for now, money is very tight.

Autozone has an adapter tool that you need to use as well as the usually inner tie rod extension tool. Take the new tie rod with you to the store to check that everything fits when you pick up the tools.

Thanks, tomj. When I took everything back to Auto Zone, I was told that that was the only tool they had for tie rods. Besides, if there is a pin that has to be driven out, I don't see any way to do that, given the way the rack is buried up there. I think this is a time to recognize my limitations and let the pros do it.

Well, even if you get a professional to do it, for those readers who wish to perform the job, the adpater is call a "Tie Rod Adapter (Saginaw)" and the P/N at Autozone is 27042. It's listed under a couple of additional P/Ns.

As for the pin, they're usually made from aluminium, so turning the end shears off the pin without removing it first. It doesn't take very much torque on the end to accomplish this.

Thanks, Tomj. What about installing the new pin?

If you can't get the pin in, you can just loctite the threads. It should be fine. Others may disagree but that's what I did on mine at least.

Actually installing the pin should not be a great problem. The idea is to drive the aluminum pin into the steel threads and the pin mushrooming in its cavity in such a way that it acts as a thread-lock. Pretty effective, but there have been stories of failures ... and the rod end un-threading itself. Pretty scary ... but one should be able to detect something major is going wrong, I would think, before an accident occurs. As I wrote, I no longer do this task ... and just replace the whole rack at one time.