Is my Engine Toast?

Good morning all,

About 3 years ago (Almost to the day, actually) I did the huge isolator bolt fix on my 2002 Windstar. Cleaned out all the nasty gunk from the motor, replaced the bolts, gaskets, everything. Went ahead and did plugs and wires while I was in there. It as a huge thing for me because I don't even know how to change my own oil. But the codes went away and the van has driven nice since then.

About 2 weeks ago, CEL came back on, talking about a misfire. I didn't have time to deal with it so I gave it to my mechanic. He was reading trouble with cyclinder 5, and he went ahead and changed all the plugs and wires. They were nasty covered in oil I guess? He said there's oil in the motor and stuff.

Cylinder 5 still misfires, and sometimes when you idle it's really really rough. He feels like maybe the cylinder is going bad, and I don't know truly what that means. He's a great mechanic and a good friend, but we have a language barrier so it's difficult for me to understand what he's telling me. I don't know if this means my engine is destroyed or if there's something I can do to breathe some life back into it. Was really hoping to get one more year out of it.

We put a new transmission in it 2 years ago. This thing has been such a money pit. But I'm having a hard time giving up on it, you know?

Any thoughts on what I should look at, or do next?

Farns

Sorry you are having problems. How many miles on vehicle? Is the coolant crystal clear...or does it have an oily sheen? Do you have to add coolant? Did you use a torque wrench when you replaced the isolator bolts?

I have not looked at the coolant - not sure how to. But I'm not aware of any issues with it. I do have to add oil between oil changes, I do know I have a problem somewhere there.

When I did the isolator bolt fix, I did follow the instructions I found here in the big sticky thread about the subject. I followed them to the letter and rented any tools I needed to do it right. This included a torque wrench. But that having been said, I don't recall exactly if I did or not. Stated another way, if the walk through said to, I did. If it did not, I probably did not.

The van has 186k miles on it.

Did your mechanic do a pressure test? Open the coolant reservoir tank cap (to the left of the motor if you're standing in front) and see if you have clear coolant or if it's black and gunky. If it's dark and sludge-like, unfortunately, your lower intake gasket may have blown. That's another common failure. However, it's much less severe than a head gasket and a much easier fix.

I did mine a few years ago. Basically you do what you did before, then remove the crossover water pipe (replace it if it's original; it'll leak at the bend eventually), a bunch more vacuum lines, the heater hose, and the EGR pipe, then the 14 bolts in the lower manifold, then lift it off. You'll need to carefully clean the heads and the manifold (do NOT scratch it!) Place the new gasket, RTV the corners, drop the manifold back in, and torque the manifold bolts in two steps with your torque wrench. Then just reassemble everything you took apart. The only other caveat is that you MUST change the oil before you crank the engine since some coolant will have spilled into the crankcase when you lifted the manifold off the heads.

If you want to attempt it, I can post the service manual steps with diagrams that will help. If you did the upper plenum job, this one is a few more steps but the same procedure up to that point. I did it really slowly and it took me about 4-5 hours on a Saturday afternoon only because I spent so long cleaning the intake and heads off. (It's tricky to get the old gasket off without scratching the surfaces.)

Sorry, got another question and idea:

Did you clean those little EGR ports when you did the plenum job 3 years ago? Also, did your mechanic replace the coil pack? When he says "oil in the engine", he may just mean in the intake/pcv system, and some oil in there is normal for this engine.

Check the coolant bottle like I said before, but that's probably not the cause of your misfire. With new plugs and wires, it's either the EGR ports clogged or a bad coil pack.

Scubacat,

Thank you for the input. I will check the coolant tonight and see what I can find out. I would be interested in seeing the steps you mentioned in the procedure. The isolator bolt fix was a huge deal for me. I'm not mechanically inclined at all. In fact, I read through the walkthough over and over for like 3 weeks before deciding to try it LOL. It fully took me 3 days to do the job.

I do not know what a pressure test is, but I can ask him if he did one. What does the test reveal, and about what?

I did clean the EGR ports 3 years ago, with acetone and foam swabs if I remember correctly. They were NASTY then, I made them look pretty new. I asked him about the coil pack, and he says I don't have one. But I'm pretty sure I've replaced it before. This may be where the language barrier is causing some trouble.

So maybe I just need to look at pulling it all apart and cleaning it good again?

I enjoyed reading a thread on this forum about "what should I remove and sell before scrapping my windstar". Believe me, the thought has crossed my mind plenty. I've already looked on eBay for what parts might go for LOL.

A pressure test would reveal a leak somewhere in the cooling system. It should hold about 15psi or so of pressure without dropping. If you cleaned the EGR ports out 3 years ago, they should still be fine. It takes longer than that for them to get plugged up like you saw.

I would STRONGLY advise you to first check the coil pack. You can do this yourself. Simply remove the two-piece wiper cowl cover and it is mounted on the rear (right) valve cover. It's the rectangular block that all the spark plug wires connect to. Remove it and look at the back. If you see a tiny hairline crack, that's causing your arcing and you need to replace it. This is a fairly routine, known problem with these vans and will cause your exact issues (misfires, poor idle, etc.)

Edit: Label or take note of where the spark plug wires connect on the coil pack. (Make a quick drawing or something.) They are specific and are NOT random.

Hi there, ok quick update. I checked the coolant reservoir, and looking down into it, it seemed to look dark and sludgy. But as I swabbed it several time with foam swabs, they came out clean every time. Nice clear fluid. So I guess that's good, right? LOL

I took a look at where the coil pack is, and now I do remember replacing it, I'm like 92% sure. 3 years ago, I think? So hard to remember.

Wife called me today to say she had smoke coming out from under the hood, but she didn't know if it was smoke or steam. She pulled over, lifted the hood, didn't see anything, and hurried to finish her errands and drive home. No more signs after that.

My '00 Windstar had a similar episode where it started running horribly; replacing plugs/wires/coil pack had no effect.

Took it to the dealer - who discovered a single bad fuel injector. Interesting: Yes, it was cylinder #5.

The dealer replaced the single injector (I don't recall what we paid - but I recall that I didn't think it was outrageous). It has run fine since then.

EDIT: See my later post in this thread on details from my visit to the dealer.

Interesting. Though I shudder at the thought of taking it to a dealer, I'm giving it some thought. The timing right now is horrible. While I know I can probably do the coil pack, it would take me a few hours I'm sure. I'm so overwhelmed by other pressing needs right now, I really don't have the bandwidth. And now my wife is taking the opportunity to start shopping for new cars! UG. Do NOT want another car payment right now. :banghead:

Just watched this video, which seems to be a pretty comprehensive walkthrough on the 171/174 fix I did a few years ago:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HgHDhNzBJ8w

that brought back some memories LOL. At that time, it took me 3 days and several rented tools to get the job done, but now I'm wondering, if I could knock it out in a single saturday since I did it once before. I mean, I know I don't have to do the isolator bolts again, but I'm wondering if my EGR ports are gunky again. I am going through oil more than I should...

I just need to bite the bullet and dive into this I think - hit the coil pack first like you said, then look at the EGR ports next. I just really need some motivation to! haha

Coil pack replacement isn't difficult - but the pack isn't conveniently located (trick response: *Nothing* is conveniently located under a Windstar hood), so the job tends to be time-consuming.

Seeing that the injectors are only $40 at autozone I'm wondering if I should just replace both at the same time? Or would you still do one and then the other?

If I do the coil pack, reset the code (I have a basic reader of my own that can clear the codes), and put it back together just enough to fire it up, would a misfire code return promptly if the coil pack is not the issue?

I found a youtube video on the injectors, but it wasn't very good. Does anybody have a good walk through here on how to do that?

In two more oil changes, my '99 3.8L will have reached 400K miles... on all original fuel injectors. If you think you have injector issues ... I would rather you swap them around, keeping notes of which went where ... and see if the problem relocates.
.
Very good that your coolant is clear! Very good!
.
I would do a cylinder compression test and go from there. I think you can get a loaner compression gauge from AutoZone. Yes, its a little work ... but if you can't do this ... for whatever reason ... spare time, whatever ... you might want to join the little lady in car shopping!

Oh that's a great idea - on moving the injectors.

How would I figure out which one belongs to cylinder 5? I have a haynes manual I think... but do you know off-hand which one ?

On the compression test - is that a tool you rent, or one you buy? How do you perform the test? And what will it reveal? Will it indicate that a cylinder has indeed gone bad?

A compression gauge costs about $30 or so. Or you can borrow from loan program. (I have two of them ... just so I can compare readings between the two.)
.
A compression test will show, in a short time, what the real condition of the engine is. You can read how to do the test in a Haynes. Haynes will refer to a "wet test"...one which you put some oil in the cylinder. I recommend NOT doing this test ... it is easy to misread ... and totally destroy your compression gauge. Been there ... done that!

OOps! I double-posted a sketch showing cyl locations ... did you get it? I tried to delete one .... and deleted both by mistake!

I do not see the sketch... oh wait, I got a copy of it in my email... here it is:

..............Firewall..............
.....................ignition pack
Cyls #1..#2..#3 (Bank #1)
...
Cyls #4..#5..#6 (Bank #2)
.............radiator ........
.........front bumper ......


Glad to see that 5 is closer to the front than the back LOL

Thank you!

Good. Yeah, cyl #5 is my favorite cylinder to have a problem with ...LOL!

I'd definitely do a compression test. It only takes a moment.

Your symptom of steam coming from the engine compartment as well as some oil in the coolant bottle.. I'm still thinking lower intake gasket. It happens to all these vans eventually. If you do decide to replace it, I'll be happy to post the steps. Get the new lower gasket from Ford since they've improved it to prevent a future failure.

is that one of the gaskets I would have replaced during the isolator bolt fix? I'm not real sharp about what part is called what, but I replaced the little round gaskets and one big one that went around the whole top part of the clamshell thingy (see how dumb I am? I just said "thingy"). Removed white ones, and installed blue ones that I bought from Ford. Are we talking about the same gasket?

There was not any oil in the coolant, I thought there might have been, because it looked dark and dingy inside the bottle, but I swabbed the sides and bottom and sponged out some fluid it was all clear, no sign of oil that I could tell.

No. (You replaced the grommets on the middle bolts with the green ones, right?) The lower intake gasket is underneath the metal intake. In plain english, after you pull off the upper plenum (the 2-piece clamshell thingy), it's the bigger metal thing under that. You pull off that coolant tube, a bunch more vacuum fittings and stuff, and there's 14 bolts that hold it onto the heads. You might want to get another shop to check this out and do the work for you. If you're seeing steam, you probably are leaking some coolant somewhere.

hmmm so it's another level deeper than I did before. Got it. Awesome.

Gonna try to work on it tonight some. We'll see if I can get to the ignition pack first and go from there. Thanks!!

Here's a video from another forum member:

http://www.automotiveforums.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=1061148#post7036572

One other tip: You'll have to remove the fuel injectors and fuel rail, but it is EASY, don't worry! Just remove the 4 bolts that hold down the rail, and gently lift it out. The injectors can remain attached to the rail. I used a piece of string to tie it out of the way. Doing it this way, you do not have to open the fuel system. It's also a good time to look at your fuel injectors anyway and make sure they're clean and not blocked.

If you're losing oil, and seeing steam, I'd have to say I'm about 90-95% sure this is your problem. It's the main common cause of it in these vans.

Also, one other thing to keep in mind: This gasket blows (leaks) because it has both coolant and oil passages. Almost always it fails between the two in one or two spots. That means that some coolant may be leaking into the crankcase. If you don't get this fixed soon, your engine could become catastrophically damaged.

The only thing I'd do differently from this video is I'd get the lower gasket set from Ford. They've redesigned it with a separate "ring" around each coolant passage to address the original cause of the failure. My take on it is the pressure between the oil and coolant passages changes back and forth (negative to positive and back) as things heat up and cool down. It's this cycle that wears down that section. The new design means that the opposing pressures won't affect the same section of gasket, and thus it will be "torqued" like that causing it to leak.

So then here's $50,000 question. It *sounds* like with enough time and the right tools, motivation, etc.. LOL I can get through all this. How long would it take a for reals mechanic to knock all this out? I mean, if I took it to the ford dealership, could I expect it to be 3 hours? 6 hours? Knowing they do this all day long and know what they're doing.

Probably about 3-4 hours. The problem is that they may or may not do a good job cleaning off the intake and heads, and that could cause it to fail again. Additionally, if you do it yourself, you can look for all kinds of other little things that a shop surely won't bother with unless you pay them extra. It took me about 6 hours or so on a Saturday.

One thing to note is that getting down to where you were before will go MUCH faster the second time from experience.

Ok, this sounds good. I may give it a whack. I need to build some some courage LOL. I can't remember if I said this already, but I do have a pretty decent puddle of oil drips in my driveway. Is it possible this gasket fix would take care of that, or is it likely that the dripping could be coming from any number of other places?

A follow-up on my '00 Windstar - and replacing a failed injector:

Yes, #5 is front-and-center on the engine, so easy to get to.

I went back and checked my paperwork from January 2014: To replace the injector, my local dealership charged about $215 in labor and $120 in parts (see info on total bill below).

Since I had the repair done at the dealership, they did *not* charge me a separate fee for the diagnosis.

I thought this was pretty reasonable given the process from the invoice, which claims:

"Perform relative compression PASS. Perform power balance cyl #5 is dead misfire. Remove plug and check for good spark, vehicle has good spark. Remove #5 injector harness check for power and ground signal from PCM both OK. Remove and replace #5 injector road test to verify repair."

I also had them replace the fuel filter and flush the fuel system (yeah, I'm not convinced it's worth it - but decided to do it while they were in there). After tax, supplies and everything, the entire trip to the dealership was just under $610.

Keep in mind that I had just completed replacing the plugs, wires and coil pack myself - and was out of time and energy to dig into it further. In the grand scheme of things, I think the dealership did a good job and the price was reasonable (given the whole dealership parts/labor rate structure).

And, to confirm: The engine has been fine since then; it's now at about 175K miles.

Please do not jump into a lower manifold gasket job if you do not need too!
.
There are a Ka-zillion places to have a coolant/steam leak under hood ...other than manifold and head gaskets. Make sure you have identified "what needs fixing before you start fixing". If you have clear coolant, there is likely no leak from oil-to-coolant (or vice versa) passages. The next step would be pull a oil sample and have it tested ... see Blackstone Labs website. I use them so often, I have a paid-ahead account with them... for speedier turn-around of samples.
.
You may have a hose or radiator leak ... pretty common and not so severe.

Mind you; the lower manifold gaskets do leak ... and so do the front cover gaskets. I've just done both this past spring. But I made sure I had the problem, before I corrected it. I've never had a head gasket leak on this engine ... the head gaskets seem to be pretty robust.

Please do not jump into a lower manifold gasket job if you do not need too!
.
There are a Ka-zillion places to have a coolant/steam leak under hood ...other than manifold and head gaskets. Make sure you have identified "what needs fixing before you start fixing". If you have clear coolant, there is likely no leak from oil-to-coolant (or vice versa) passages. The next step would be pull a oil sample and have it tested ... see Blackstone Labs website. I use them so often, I have a paid-ahead account with them... for speedier turn-around of samples.
.
You may have a hose or radiator leak ... pretty common and not so severe.

That is correct - you should do the pressure test and try to be sure. However, seeing even some sludgy looking oil in the coolant bottle is a sign of an intake gasket issue with this model. I believe the 2002 has the improved timing cover gasket, too, so that's rarely the issue. Remember, he said he was having to add oil as well. We have both coolant steaming and oil burning/disappearing. I'm still 90% sure on lower intake gasket given how often they fail on these.

Head gasket failure is extremely unlikely unless the engine over heated.

...... I checked the coolant reservoir, and looking down into it, it seemed to look dark and sludgy. But as I swabbed it several time with foam swabs, they came out clean every time. Nice clear fluid. So I guess that's good, right? ......
.
Scubacat, I read this to mean the coolant is clean, even though the reservoir plastic is discolored. I find it reasonable that a 11 year old reservoir would be discolored. Unless I have missed it, he has written nothing to indicate there is oil in the coolant. ??
.
Reservoirs will discolor over time as they age ... and as hose inner-walls deteriorate and become coolant flotsam, blackening the inner plastic surfaces. I have removed the reservoir on my '99 several times for cleaning ... and once to totally replace with a new one.

.
Scubacat, I read this to mean the coolant is clean, even though the reservoir plastic is discolored. I find it reasonable that a 11 year old reservoir would be discolored. Unless I have missed it, he has written nothing to indicate there is oil in the coolant. ??
.
Reservoirs will discolor over time as they age ... and as hose inner-walls deteriorate and become coolant flotsam, blackening the inner plastic surfaces. I have removed the reservoir on my '99 several times for cleaning ... and once to totally replace with a new one.

Regardless, the first step would be to find out what's causing the smoke or steam! And also to figure out why he'd be losing oil. I haven't had any oil-burning issues on our 2002 so that definitely concerns me. The only time I ever saw steam come up like that and couldn't figure out the issue easily, it turned out to be the intake gasket.

I agree with your main point, though -- I woudln't want to do that much work for nothing. I'd probably spend $40 or so for half an hour of labor with a good independent machanic to track it down if I were in this situation. I had a terrible sounding clunk on my camry for months, couldn't find it, and just did the same thing. Sometimes it's just hard to find issues without having the thing up on a rack and being able to really look at EVERYTHING. Also having tools to pressure test and stuff handy is a big help, and no DIYer ever has nearly as many tools and as much equipment as a full service machanic. (maybe you're the exception though..:cool:)

Sorry for the long silence... have had a million things going on since I was last on here.

I took the van to the Ford Dealership for their diagnostic. They did a test (I don't know if this is the compression test you guys talked about, it sounds like it...) they blew compressed air into the cylinder, and 95% of it came straight out through the exhaust. I hope I've recalled that accurately.

They suggest a new head assembly for $716, and the associated little parts that go with that... For a total of $850 in parts and $742 in labor.

They also said that once they got in there, they could determine if less work or different work would be required. Such as just sending a valve to a machine shop or something. Then it might be only in the hundreds of dollars, not thousands. But they say they won't know until they get in there.

So on top of all this, we have a door lock on the sliding driver side door that needs the motor/actuator replaced, we have been told that our AC Compressor is going out, though it's been running fine all summer, so I don't know how worried to be there, and I believe a brake caliper in the front may be on it's way out. Sigh.... Seriously ready to give up. If I hadn't just put a brand new OEM transmission in it two years ago, it would be much easier to part with. But I think I'm being irrational now because of the money I have spent on it.

We aren't wanting to go back into debt for a car, but I'm also just plain tired of the fight. Anybody here need a fairly new Transmission? :-)

The test they did is called a "leak down" test. There should be very little compressed air that leaks out of the cylinder when the valves are closed. When it leaks out, the mechanic can listen for a hissing sound in the exhaust, intake, or dipstick tube. Depending on where gives an indication to the cause of the problem.

The hissing on the exhaust implies that either (1) the head is cracked around the valve preventing a good seal (2) the valve itself isn't sealing around the valve seat.

Repair vs. replacement... well this is the decision we all face each time there is a major repair need for the vehicle. I look it from this perspective... if I can keep the car on the road for a significant fraction (i.e 10%) of the cost of a new vehicle and the one I have serves its purpose, then I repair. The other cost to consider is that of being stranded (towing, missed work, etc.) if it breaks down.

I've only sold/traded/junked three vehicles (1) an Accord that was so rusted that gasoline fuel door was only supported by the fill pipe (2) a Lynx that no longer met our needs AND needed several significant repairs (3) a Cobalt that was totalled in an accident.

It is definitely a decision based on your situation and your tolerance for a vehicle that might fail.

Good morning all,

just a quick update... It was a difficult decision to make, but we did end up deciding to throw in the towel with this Windstar. There's so many other parts that have failed or are about to fail, that we just decided to end it all. We've purchased another vehicle, about 10 years newer, and hoping that we'll run that one until our kids are grown and we don't need all those seats :-)

I want to express my gratitude to you all for all the help and advice you've give me on this thing over the years. You've helped me get through some very difficult repairs that I would have never thought possible for a guy like me. I'll still be around in F-150 forum for my 2000 pickup truck, but knock on wood that thing has hardly give me any trouble in all these years. Love that truck.

Now I'm trying to decide what to do with the van. I keep hearing a junkyard will give you $500 for a car, but also keep going back to the fact that we have a fairly new transmission that was a brand new OEM from Ford that we had put in, less than 2 years ago. Anybody want to buy it, you'll get a whole van full of spare parts with it! LOL

Thanks everyone. If anybody has some final thoughts on the best way I could dispose of the van, I'd love to hear of them. THANKS!

You could always throw it up on craigslist (or possibly autotrader.com) and see if you get any bites. I'd try that just for a short while to see if anyone might be interested. You never know. It'd be nice to be able to get a grand or more for it. It's probably worth that much (in usable value, not blue book value.)