Lower Intake Manifold Gasket Replacement

I was just raising my sub-frame back in place ... it's been low by an inch or so while I replaced gaskets and balancer ... and "OOPS!".... I was wrong, the indicator/pointer for timing procedures is CCW (looking into the crank) of the crank position sensor by an inch or so.

I'm glad you told me that! I've been out there for over an hour trying to figure out how I can get my eyes on that spot! I was about to take off the crankshaft position sensor, but now I know I need to look elsewhere.

I took a couple of pictures I'm going to post in a minute, of marks that are on the pulley...I don't know which one would be the timing mark.

OK, once I got in there and looked at where you were talking about, I finally realized what I was looking for. I didn't know what a "timing mark" looked like, but now I am assuming that it is that pyramid shaped thing beside the crankshaft position sensor. On the metal ring between the "belt part" and the "gear part" I found some marks that look like a ruler that go around that about an inch or a little more...that is on the edge, and directly on the back there is a green dot. I suppose that is the timing mark that I need to line up? As best as I can tell at TDC they are pretty close to matching. I couldn't get an exact TDC but extremely close and the marks are really close.

I suppose this is the timing mark...
http://i737.photobucket.com/albums/xx13/peneguy102309/DSC02425_zps0451b379.jpg (http://s737.photobucket.com/user/peneguy102309/media/DSC02425_zps0451b379.jpg.html)


And this is the green dot I was talking about. You can faintly see the lines that look like ruler lines on the edge of that ring. There is also some oil coming out from behind it that you can see in this image...
http://i737.photobucket.com/albums/xx13/peneguy102309/DSC02422_zps172829a0.jpg (http://s737.photobucket.com/user/peneguy102309/media/DSC02422_zps172829a0.jpg.html)


Didn't see any cracks on the spark plugs...#2 had some white ashing on it, it's the only one that does...I can't tell if it's carbon or ash...if it's carbon that could indicate a faulty ignition system right?...In the picture from bottom to top left is 1, 2, 3 and from bottom to top right is 4, 5, 6...
http://i737.photobucket.com/albums/xx13/peneguy102309/DSC02424_zpsaecc880d.jpg (http://s737.photobucket.com/user/peneguy102309/media/DSC02424_zpsaecc880d.jpg.html)

Yes, those marks that look like a ruler are the ones you are interested in. There are usually some notes at each end of the "ruler" .... something like "10 BTC", "20 ATC", and sometimes it's hand scrawled gibberish (Japanese I suppose) ... but you need these numbers to see if TDC is to be in the middle of the ruler .... sometimes it is, sometimes its off-center. That's why its best to see if one of the marks aligns with the piston top-of-travel.
..... but if its anywhere on the ruler, you don't have a slipping harmonic balancer. You can forget this pursuit.
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BTW, I will be off-radar for a few days. Please don't do anything drastic 'til I get back to civilization. You are doing good work. Good if you get a chance to try a new ignition pack though....
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I'll be back Sunday evening or Monday.

I'm going to try and talk to the manager tomorrow and see if I can get that coil pack...that is my last attempt. If that doesn't work, I'm out of ideas and knowledge of how to do anything else. Most anything else, I guess, would require the engine to come out and I don't have the capability of doing that...


Thanks for your help!

I'm not sure about the green dot.

Hold on .... don't lose faith! If the ignition pack doesn't do it ... we'll come up with something else. But the engine will not have to be removed ... I can pretty well promise that.

I don't think you can adjust the timing on these vehicles as they are all computer controlled and to adjust the timing it would have to be done at a dealer or a mechanic that has the ability to re-program the PCM. do you have the haynes manual for your van if not PM me and let me know. i am trying as much as i can to help but until the problem is pinpointed you could just be throwing money into things that don't need to be replaced..

as for those marks you are seeing i thing those are for the crank position sensor, all these motors nowadays are non adjustable amd most problems are sensor related

Hold on .... don't lose faith! If the ignition pack doesn't do it ... we'll come up with something else. But the engine will not have to be removed ... I can pretty well promise that.

Well I hope we can figure something out...that is CHEAP!

I don't think you can adjust the timing on these vehicles as they are all computer controlled and to adjust the timing it would have to be done at a dealer or a mechanic that has the ability to re-program the PCM. do you have the haynes manual for your van if not PM me and let me know. i am trying as much as i can to help but until the problem is pinpointed you could just be throwing money into things that don't need to be replaced..

Yeah, you can't adjust the timing manually, it is electronically controlled. We were just seeing if maybe the rubber part of the harmonic balancer had begun to fail causing the vibration, but it all lines up pretty closely to the timing marks.

And trust me, I don't plan on throwing any more money at this thing unless I know what exactly is wrong with it! Like I told 12Ounce, hopefully the manager at AutoZone will let me try that coil pack and bring it back if it doesn't work...he's usually pretty cool about stuff like that...You know, as long as the part doesn't get dirty or damaged.

No I don't have the Haynes manual...I chose to get a subscription to Alldata instead. Haven't decided which I like better. Alldata is hard to search and find exactly what you need sometimes, but it seems to have A LOT of information once you get in there and get to digging around.

One last thing before I hit the road: While you have the plugs out, and have the compression gauge, go ahead and establish #1 cylinder at top-of-stroke and on the compression stroke (or likewise, #5 cylinder at top-of-stroke and on exhaust stroke ... remember the crank revolves twice for one revolution of the cams) and at that point ... inspect the cam position sensor "wand". Its a bit of work because a coolant pipe got mounted in the way, but other than that it is pretty straight forward. This is an adjustable timing point and there is a little plastic tool to get it exact ... but if the wand is pretty much centered in the window you should be OK ... if it is not, grab the wrenches. If you want the plastic alignment tool ... it is often included in the box with a new sensor, surely your friend would let you borrow one of these.
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And while you have the sensor removed, drop some clean oil down around the synchronizer shaft ... this thing is pre-lube ... doesn't get any crankcase oil ... crazy!

I changed out the coil pack today...no change. I still think it is the harmonic balancer. I went back and re-read Ed Strong's post about his harmonic balancer and it sounds IDENTICAL to my symptoms and problems.

http://www.automotiveforums.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=885567&highlight=ed_strong&page=4

Back.
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Yes, it could be the harmonic balancer ... but have you checked the cam position wand? That's a no cost check.

Another low cost check... take a short drive without the serpentine being on ... Of course, you have to "muscle-over" the absence of power steering ... but does the engine run better?

Where is this said "wand?" Is it located under the black plastic part? I went out there the other day when you posted about it, but I didn't want to mess with it just in case...

I was actually about to take the belt off and check and see if it still happened...I was thinking about this the other day, but it's been raining until today.

I ordered a harmonic balancer from rock auto yesterday. When you change that thing, it only goes on and comes off one way right? It has a key slot so it can only be positioned one way on the shaft? So I won't have to find TDC correct...just take the old one off and put the new one on?

I took the belt off and started up the van and it's still is doing the same thing. I tell you what...that belt can be a real pain sometimes!

Your problem might be the balancer, but I'm still skeptical ... why not put a strip of packing tape across the rubber section and see if it breaks during a drive. Mind you, I have had to replace balancers in the past .. but only if I was using the timing marking on the balancer... and the rubber had slipped a bit.
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..... I should add: Harmonic balancers are designed differently on different engines. On the 3.8 the balancer hub that is bolted on the crankshaft also has the toothed wheel and the serpentine belt wheel "hard mounted' to it ... these items do not slip on this design. Only the off-set weight slips when the rubber gets soft. This is not the case, on say, the old Escort engines.

.I wonder if anyone has ever had the front cover off of this engine ... and perhaps the counterbalance shaft is not located correctly??

Carfax puts me as the 7th owner, so who knows...From the parts on the van that I have seen that appear to be replaced, all are Motorcraft, so hopefully the previous owners took it to a dealership to get it fixed...Of course that doesn't mean it's not right, but odds are less likely.

It would seem though as I would have noticed the problem before if it had been an existing issue since purchase. Remember, it ran perfectly smooth just after I did the intake manifold gaskets and isolator bolts. I have not noticed this problem until recently, and it seems like it has gotten worse over the past few weeks.

Also on that harmonic balancer, alldata says to put some of that Permatex Ultra Black silicone in the key slot...is this correct?

I used regular Gray, but ... yes that is right, there is a chance that oil can weep by the key and pass the washer and bolt head ... so I dope them up also.

I took the belt off and started up the van and it's still is doing the same thing. I tell you what...that belt can be a real pain sometimes!
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On this design balancer, only the counterweight is mounted on rubber ... it is the only thing that can "slip". I was hoping something belt driven might be causing the problem ...say the ac clutch. But if the engine ran the same with the belt removed ... that eliminates that. We are in the wrong haystack!

....so the actual timing cannot have slipped...not the wheel that triggers the crank position sensor. The counterweight (along with the timing "ruler", could have slipped .... that would not affect the timing, might make a little engine tremor, not much. But wait, you have already found the "ruler" to be very close to piston top-of-travel. So, what could have slipped ...??

New wild theory:
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We have been looking for something that happened to your engine. It was running pretty good after the lower intake manifold job, now it is not. The compression test proves the lower crankcase is in good shape ... so are the valves ... so is the cam timing (chain drive). The counter balance shaft cannot have miss-located, suddenly and mysteriously, and yet the cams be in place ... impossible. The igniton pack you have proven is not likely the problem. If it were spark cables, I think you would have noticed. Your observations convinced me the harmonic balancer has not slipped ... even if it had, you have not used the timing marks for setting up the cam position sensor. So I think the balancer is not the problem. Could it be the cam or crank position sensors themselves? ... perhaps, maybe they got wet, but you would expect a code indicating such. What does that leave? Not much.
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But what if ... in doing the upper intake manifold job ... the plastic passageway that is clipped inside the upper was broken a bit and later came loose? That could cause the symptoms ... so please open up the "upper" again and see if that piece needs to be secured. If it does, ask me for a tip.

Here's my thing...I can't be sure if my checking of the timing at TDC was very accurate. I wasn't exactly sure the correct procedure, and I used #5 cause the only person I had helping me couldn't get to #1...I don't know if I was on exhaust stroke though...and he (my helper) was pretty bad at letting me know what the piston was doing. I was thinking about getting a compression gauge again and when it starts going up, I'll know it's on the compression stroke (for #1), then I can just back it back down to right at zero really slowly and that should be pretty close to TDC?

And the upper part you're talking about...you might have something there. Let me make sure we're talking about the same part. When I removed the upper plenum the first time--when I first did the repair--those little "channels," or whatever they are, ARE loose. I thought they were supposed to move slightly as that is how it was when I first took it off. It wiggles back and forth ever-so-slightly...didn't know it wasn't supposed to. BUT how does that explain that the van ran so well for 2-3 weeks then flopped? Could it have just worked itself into an incorrect position over time?

ON TO SOMETHING NEW: I have recently noticed now, that IMMEDIATELY when I turn of the van the front and rear valve covers make a "clicking" sound..at first I thought it was heat dissipation, but I have never noticed it before, and it is louder than the normal heat dissipation "ticking." Think it's related or any ideas on that?

GOOD! ... that the inner piece was loose! That tells me that the plastic-upper is the early edition, like mine. (In later generations, Ford fused that piece so that it would not be loose. Good action, but they could have done better.) Your inner-manifold was designed to be clipped in place ... but over time the clips break, and the piece gets looser and looser. Not to mention what/where are the clips ending up ... restricting air flow, or worse. ??
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I took a look at that part and took this action: I broke away all the clips that were not already broken ... with knives, or whatever, I cleaned the surfaces smooth. I retrieved the plastic fragments I found in the head air-inlets. After alcohol cleaning the new mating surfaces and using an artist brush, I wipe a good coverage of Gray RTV around each of the six male horns that stick down into the six female holes in the plastic spacer (... the "spacer" goes between the upper and the lower ..;. has the throttle body attached to it.) After some cure time, I added a RTV bead to the new permanent joint that was now formed between the inner-piece and the spacer. Now the inner-piece has a new location ... is no longer attached to the upper. And now oil will not drip down on the EGR jets as badly ... keeping the jets cleaner, longer.

So when you take a look, you are looking for loose plastic that may have broken away and gone downstream a bit. You are also looking to make sure you have blocked the "runner" butterflies in a permanent closed position. You are also looking for anything that may have been sucked down into the head ... shop rag, plastic chunk, etc?
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Another "tip": I got concerned about those fourteen insert-nuts fused into the spacer that hold down the upper. (Especially after one got loose!) So I found some bolts and washers of the right threads and lengths ... and installed them bottom-up from underneath the edge of the spacer. Thread-Loc was used. Now I have 14 studs that hold down the upper ... of course, along with 14 washers and nuts. A much better system, I think.

Yes, feeling the top-of-piston travel can be a bit of a challenge. With the plugs out, and my wife rocking the crank slowly back and forth ... using a long beam wrench, I feel the piston using a length of 1/4 PEG plastic tubing. I use cylinder #5.

Will that wiggle affect anything?...or is it just the broken plastic pieces that could affect something?

I have had the upper plenum off since and looked over everything again to make sure it looked ok. I didn't see any plastic pieces and I know there aren't any rags down in there. I was VERY careful while working to make sure nothing went down in those holes.

Any thoughts on the ticking from the valve area?

Well, some have attributed noise to that loose inner piece. I suspect that may be true, but not for certain.

Now that you mention it...the other day I was listening to the engine while playing with the throttle, and when I would hit a certain RPM (not sure what it was as I was outside the car; probably around 2000) it would rattle. I am going to describe it like there was an acorn inside rattling around, but I would venture to guess it was that inner liner rattling now.

However, every noise on my van seems to be worse since this vibration started...especially the catalytic converter. Talk about embarrassing! Plus I have an exhaust leak somewhere, but I'm not going to fix those until I fix whatever is wrong with the engine.

I hope you explore the synchronizer ... not only to verify that the wand is where it is suppose to be, but to do the lubrication that I wrote about. If the upper section of the synchro is binding a bit, it causes oscillations up and down the shaft assembly and erratic cam position signals. Confusing to the PCM. Best to remove the synchro assembly, prop up vertically and let fresh oil do its thing overnight.
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Don't mop out all the excess oil ... leave a bit in there.

I'm about to go check that in just a minute...will any kind of oil work to put down in there? Same as what's in the van? How much?

I'm guessing the thinner the better. I use Mobil1 5w-30. We are talking a fraction of a tablespoon here. There is a very small volume at the top of that thing.

Don't be afraid to remove the synchronizer shaft assembly. Take an image first. Don't move the crankshaft while its out ... put it back just like it was.

Another question...I was thinking, if TDC is on a compression stroke at #1 one, would that mean when I have a compression gauge on it, and start turning, do I need to go till the compression starts coming back down...for example if 190 psi is the highest pressure it reaches, would that be the top of the compression stroke and TDC?...I was watching a video of a guy using a vacuum/pressure gauge and he would turn the crank until the pressure started going up then would back it back down to 0. That seems to me like it would be at the bottom of the stroke if the pressure is starting to go up and that to find TDC you would need to go until it isn't compressing anymore...

And just to verify, it needs to be at TDC when I look for the "wand" correct?

Compression works kinda like that ... but not exactly. Yes, you will see compression build as the piston goes "up" on the compression stroke, but as we approach the top, the piston really slows in velocity and at the speed that you are hand cranking ... the air losses /leakages by the piston rings and the valves likely are greater than the compression gains. Results: You will probably see a "peak" several degrees before TDC. Valve timing enters the equation also ... on a really high performance engine, cranking compression is even more confusing.
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So, watching compression build, some, on cylinder #1 while feeling the piston top on cylinder #5 with a plastic rod ... will get you pretty darn close to TDC on piston #1, compression stroke.
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But no, if you just want to service the synchronizer ... all you have to do is make sure the crank is not moved and you get the wand exactly located back as it was. This assumes we think the wand is close to being r"ight".... and we do, or it would not run very well at all.
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But to check the wand location to see if it is exactly "precise", we will need #1 cylinder TDC compression.

Compression works kinda like that ... but not exactly. Yes, you will see compression build as the piston goes "up" on the compression stroke, but as we approach the top, the piston really slows in velocity and at the speed that you are hand cranking ... the air losses /leakages by the piston rings and the valves likely are greater than the compression gains. Results: You will probably see a "peak" several degrees before TDC.

Yeah, my theory and reality aren't quite the same...I see now what you mean. After fiddling with it for a little while tonight, the sun went down, so I'll try again tomorrow and take your advice about "feeling" #5 while compression is building on #1...I want to double-check those timing marks on the crank/harmonic balancer again and also see where that wand is.

If you put the sensor mounting screws back in place temporarily, they will seal the holes so there is a "well" formed around the synchronizer shaft ... better to hold oil.

if you put the sensor mounting screws back in place temporarily, they will seal the holes so there is a "well" formed around the synchronizer shaft ... Better to hold oil.

10-4

Ok update...I'm pretty sure I just found TDC on #5 exhaust stroke and the "ruler marks" are about 35 degrees off...I'm about to check the cam wand you are talking about and see where it is.

I need more advice...my impact won't even budge that crank pulley bolt...I've put PB Blaster on it and let it sit, but I can't get it to move. In order to use a breaker bar, what's the best way to keep that pulley from moving?...Will I get enough resistance by putting the plugs back in and the belt back on?

Remember the torque on this thing is about 120 ft lbs, or so. So it can be tight. You want to never, NEVER, do anything to damage the surface that the belt runs on ... in fact, give the new balancer a close inspection ... if there is any shipping damage to the grooves on the belt wheel, return it.

There is a trick that some folks like that uses an old worn belt. You place the belt on the wheel and then fold it over, backwards, ... so that the fold gets captured under the belt and by at least a half a turn. This has to be done in the direction of the intended "turn" ...so its a different direction for removing/installing. The other end of the belt you capture around a pulley or length of pipe or whatever.

But on the Windstar, there is an easier method. Still uses an old worn belt ... the shorter the better. Just find the large gap on the balancer under the belt wheel (opposite side from "weight"). Push the flattened belt through the gap and around the sub frame ... lock with pipe, etc.

Well, that worked, but now I can't get the new one on. It stops after a short distance like it's hitting something...I was going to try the graduated bolt trick, but so far I can't find anywhere in town that has a bolt the same size. I have one more store to try and see if they got one, if not, I don't know what I'm going to do...what size did you say they were? I know you posted it, but now I can't find it...

Is that crank sensor adjustable...it looks like it's going to be awfully close to hitting the gears on the new pulley.

The crank sensor is not adjustable.
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If the ruler is off by 35 degrees ... then, yes, you need the new harmonic balancer you are installing.
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You will not find the bolts ... forget it! I did write the thread size ... then I mistakenly erase it .. Sorry! ... M14x1.5. You can put together a set ... one by one from McMaster Carr. They are pretty good about getting stuff shipped. Or, if you are around the Atlanta Airport, you can borrow my set.
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The new balancer ended up sliding in without touching...it was a lot closer than the old one, but it fit.

I live about two hours from the airport, so not a chance...luckily autozone has a harmonic balancer installer that I got to work so I'm putting everything back together now...will let you know if it works...hope it does...

Well what do you know...same thing :banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead:

I just knew it was going to fix it...

Well, take heart ... it was still a good maintenance action. A new balancer is not a mistake.

Sure wish you could pick up an inductive type timing light ... so the current to the plugs could be checked just at the cylinders.

.......luckily autozone has a harmonic balancer installer that I got to work so I'm putting everything back together now......
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That's good to know.

Sure wish you could pick up an inductive type timing light ... so the current to the plugs could be checked just at the cylinders.

Don't have anyway to get one...the mechanic up the street is real finicky about stuff like that...he wants to charge me for EVERYTHING. And none of the auto stores loan those.

I don't have anymore money to invest in this thing anyway. I'm not really sure what I'm going to do right now...

Have you serviced the synchronizer shaft?

No, I started to yesterday, but it was quite the challenge to get to...once I realized how small those screws were, I was afraid I was going to drop them.

Can it make my engine run so rough? It feel like it's constantly getting worse...

And besides, my wife said no more...she figured it up and at about this point I got about $1k in and that's hopefully what I can get back...

I really appreciate all of your help though...I have learned a lot!

Wanna buy a van?! It's got lots of new parts...

I wish you would do the synchronizer shaft service ...and modify the inner-upper as I described ... should cost you nothing but time. For an engine to run perfectly, everything has to be perfect.
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Those 7/32 hex screws should stay in the sensor until you force them out ... as they are weakly captured.
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Tip: To help hold screw/bolt heads in a socket ... first cover the bolt head with a fragment of dry paper tower and then force the socket down onto the bolt head ...the paper helps to seize the bolt.