head gasket, valves or rings?
nrobidoux
02-21-2013, 06:02 PM
Well I drove out to MA to visit my parents. (~2100 from ND) The cold winter kicked my car's tootie. Well my ignorance did. There were a few times my car was very tough to start. Namely below 10 degrees. (That would be < +10F. :) ) But I was persistent. I had to go to the movies or whatever trivial task was at hand.
So I cranked it... and kept cranking it. There would be an occasional *pop*. Sometimes it sputtered but it never started. I ended up killing the battery and having to roll it into a garage where it warmed up (maybe to 20F... 25F) and I jumped it. Still after some effort it started.
Well that happened (not to the same severity) about 3 times this winter. In between those three times the car pretty much sat there. Because I'm usually at work for weeks at a time.
So I got back to my parents' place and started taking care of little bits here and there. Checking things out. Wires check out. Coil packs check out. Plugs... looks good for the most part. #3 had some minor deposits on the ground which I removed. All had a light brownish color (which I believe is normal. I haven't seen any other colors on plugs that have been run a while). All were gapped about 0.005" too much. I brought them back to 0.040". Then compression....
Cylinder 1: 170
Cylinder 2: 90
Cylinder 3: 30
Cylinder 4: 110
For my car ('98 Saturn SC1) it is suppose to be ~190 psi with the service limit at 180! :uhoh::shakehead:lol::lol2::banghead:
Ideas? Are there any "tests" to determine one from another? Based on my description of what happened... any good probability it is one of the three or do I just have to open things up and see what it looks like?
Thanks.
Edit: This was my first big trip since November. Everything was fine then. My MPG has gone from ~34 to ~28. It's been "bad" for a little while but I can't recall exactly when. I've just had little trips to the movies and the corner store here and there.
I've had coolant and oil loss since I had the car (i.e. when it was getting 34 mpg). The coolant loss seems to have decreased. Oil... seems to be about the same. Compression was good before. Last time I checked it (Mar 2012).
So I cranked it... and kept cranking it. There would be an occasional *pop*. Sometimes it sputtered but it never started. I ended up killing the battery and having to roll it into a garage where it warmed up (maybe to 20F... 25F) and I jumped it. Still after some effort it started.
Well that happened (not to the same severity) about 3 times this winter. In between those three times the car pretty much sat there. Because I'm usually at work for weeks at a time.
So I got back to my parents' place and started taking care of little bits here and there. Checking things out. Wires check out. Coil packs check out. Plugs... looks good for the most part. #3 had some minor deposits on the ground which I removed. All had a light brownish color (which I believe is normal. I haven't seen any other colors on plugs that have been run a while). All were gapped about 0.005" too much. I brought them back to 0.040". Then compression....
Cylinder 1: 170
Cylinder 2: 90
Cylinder 3: 30
Cylinder 4: 110
For my car ('98 Saturn SC1) it is suppose to be ~190 psi with the service limit at 180! :uhoh::shakehead:lol::lol2::banghead:
Ideas? Are there any "tests" to determine one from another? Based on my description of what happened... any good probability it is one of the three or do I just have to open things up and see what it looks like?
Thanks.
Edit: This was my first big trip since November. Everything was fine then. My MPG has gone from ~34 to ~28. It's been "bad" for a little while but I can't recall exactly when. I've just had little trips to the movies and the corner store here and there.
I've had coolant and oil loss since I had the car (i.e. when it was getting 34 mpg). The coolant loss seems to have decreased. Oil... seems to be about the same. Compression was good before. Last time I checked it (Mar 2012).
DeltaP
02-21-2013, 09:21 PM
How did you perform your compression test? Do a "wet" compression test and a cylinder leak down test. You have at least 2 dead cylinders there. Surprised it runs enough to pull its own weight.
nrobidoux
02-23-2013, 03:20 PM
I'll definitely be hitting YouTube for instructions for those two. :)
IDK if my father built the setup himself or if it was purchased but essentially the male end has the proper threads for my spark plug holes and a rubber oring at the end. Essentially screwed in as tight as the hands allow. All plugs were out. Turned it over ~10x or so. Moved onto the next cylinder 'til we finished. Cylinder 3 we added a little oil in there. No increase in pressure.
This'll be a little process LOL. Right now I'm on a bus to North Dakota... I do have to get back to work LOL. In 3, 6 , or 7 weeks I'll be back to tackle, and ideally fix this problem.
IDK if my father built the setup himself or if it was purchased but essentially the male end has the proper threads for my spark plug holes and a rubber oring at the end. Essentially screwed in as tight as the hands allow. All plugs were out. Turned it over ~10x or so. Moved onto the next cylinder 'til we finished. Cylinder 3 we added a little oil in there. No increase in pressure.
This'll be a little process LOL. Right now I'm on a bus to North Dakota... I do have to get back to work LOL. In 3, 6 , or 7 weeks I'll be back to tackle, and ideally fix this problem.
DeltaP
02-23-2013, 06:22 PM
2&3 are defiately dead. Broken,stuck rings.
Good luck and keep us posted.
Good luck and keep us posted.
nrobidoux
02-24-2013, 01:06 AM
This may sound like a silly question but am I in a position to preorder parts? This isn't the first time I've taken the engine out of a Saturn... in fact, I believe it will be my fourth... maybe four and a half. (Took one out for parts and put it in the seats when the scraper came to pick up the car. Never went back in the engine compartment.) Oddly I think the universe has a way of plopping projects in my hands that require Saturn S-series 1.9L engines to be taken out LOL.
Anywho, I've never had broken rings. Whenever I looked at the cylinder walls I could still see the hatching... on an engine with > 200,000 miles! If the rings are broke I can only imagine the pieces scraping against the cylinder walls at 2,500-3,000 rpm for 100s if not over a thousand miles before crumbling into pieces small enough to fall into the oil pan. My imagination keeps going, lending me to think in the very worst case the cylinders need to be bored out from damage to the walls. Forget little pieces of the rings... if the rings fell apart, the piston is rubbing up against the cylinder... that can't be good! :uhoh:
Luckily I have two engines sitting at my parents' house.... ultimately they are sitting there for a reason. I'd like to salvage this one if I can. Are my fears unfounded? Do I need to take it apart before I really can decide what course of action to follow? Or can I just order a clutch and sets of seals, gaskets, and rings and go to town when I get back?
Anywho, I've never had broken rings. Whenever I looked at the cylinder walls I could still see the hatching... on an engine with > 200,000 miles! If the rings are broke I can only imagine the pieces scraping against the cylinder walls at 2,500-3,000 rpm for 100s if not over a thousand miles before crumbling into pieces small enough to fall into the oil pan. My imagination keeps going, lending me to think in the very worst case the cylinders need to be bored out from damage to the walls. Forget little pieces of the rings... if the rings fell apart, the piston is rubbing up against the cylinder... that can't be good! :uhoh:
Luckily I have two engines sitting at my parents' house.... ultimately they are sitting there for a reason. I'd like to salvage this one if I can. Are my fears unfounded? Do I need to take it apart before I really can decide what course of action to follow? Or can I just order a clutch and sets of seals, gaskets, and rings and go to town when I get back?
denisond3
02-24-2013, 03:48 PM
I have 95 SL2 that gives me grief when starting, and shows zero pressure in cyls #2 and #4 on a cold compression test. It shows 175 all the way across on a warm compression test. I just had the engine out & apart to replace the timing chain and get the oil gallery in the head cleaned out - since there was evidence of very little lube getting to the valve stems. (When dismantling i had to tap some of the valve stems to get the valve to slide out of the valve guide, and each valve had some charred oil on the stem.)
With all cleaned up I started it up - and it ran on two cylinders for a while, then on 3 and finally on 4. Its been doing that for the last 2 weeks. The car sat with a full gas tank for the year before I pulled the engine out.
My hopeful scheme:
I am going to remove the hydraulic lifters and either clean them individually or replace them. I cant believe my problem is broken rings - since it runs smoothly once the engine (and therefore the lifters) are warmed a little.
The lifters were not cleaned when the head was out.
With all cleaned up I started it up - and it ran on two cylinders for a while, then on 3 and finally on 4. Its been doing that for the last 2 weeks. The car sat with a full gas tank for the year before I pulled the engine out.
My hopeful scheme:
I am going to remove the hydraulic lifters and either clean them individually or replace them. I cant believe my problem is broken rings - since it runs smoothly once the engine (and therefore the lifters) are warmed a little.
The lifters were not cleaned when the head was out.
nrobidoux
07-01-2013, 09:10 AM
Well I rebuilt the engine... an experience for sure. When I had the valve jobs done (I had three heads) the one in my car had a 3" crack under the camshaft over cylinder 3. The head gasket didn't look so hot either. Runs like a champ now. I must've had 5W-20 in it when I initially put it on the road... or the first 3,000 miles I just got uber gas mileage. (It seemed to go away after my oil change at Walmart in Great Falls, MT.) Basically was getting ~40mpg 'til that point... now the more normal 36-ish.
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