2000 Windstar intermittent won't start due to severe misfiring

First, its not a sticky IAC. I already experience that in cold weather and compensate simply with the gas pedal until engine warms up.

However this coughing, sputtering, backfiring, misfiring problem is very severe. When it is in this state, the engine will lose rpm and stall. No way to coax it with the gas pedal to keep it running.

It happens most often when you restart the engine after having stopped somewhere for 10-30 minutes. It happens less often during a cold start in the morning.

When it does this, I remove the key, and try again. Usually in 3-10 trys, the engine runs properly. Once running properly, there is never an occurrence of this.

However, today only, first cold start, it cranked and would not fire at all. Repeatedly. Jiggled the key and maybe they helped it start. Ignition switch? Unrelated problem? If Neutral Switch, it should not have cranked. Perhaps my intermittent problem is worsening.

Wet weather seems to aggravate it. Here in PA it is cold and snowing too.

Thanks in advance,
Tom

First, its not a sticky IAC. I already experience that in cold weather and compensate simply with the gas pedal until engine warms up.

However this coughing, sputtering, backfiring, misfiring problem is very severe. When it is in this state, the engine will lose rpm and stall. No way to coax it with the gas pedal to keep it running.

It happens most often when you restart the engine after having stopped somewhere for 10-30 minutes. It happens less often during a cold start in the morning.

When it does this, I remove the key, and try again. Usually in 3-10 trys, the engine runs properly. Once running properly, there is never an occurrence of this.

However, today only, first cold start, it cranked and would not fire at all. Repeatedly. Jiggled the key and maybe they helped it start. Ignition switch? Unrelated problem? If Neutral Switch, it should not have cranked. Perhaps my intermittent problem is worsening.

Wet weather seems to aggravate it. Here in PA it is cold and snowing too.

Thanks in advance,
Tom

Have you by chance checked for spark or fuel when this happens??

Have you checked the fuel pressure???

Any codes by chance pending or hard??

Mr Creosote misfiring is often an ignition coil problem; I know about the other details you have mentionned it could be other thing, but I would take a look on the coil condition in first, just in case.
And if you complain about snow and cold just take a look on the north eastern states weather condition :):):)
Good luck

Assuming the coil, cables, and plugs are OK ... I would try the cam pos sensor and the crank pos sensor.

And then the fuel pump.

Mr Creosote misfiring is often an ignition coil problem; I know about the other details you have mentionned it could be other thing, but I would take a look on the coil condition in first, just in case.
And if you complain about snow and cold just take a look on the north eastern states weather condition :):):)
Good luck

+1 on checking the coil for cracks.

Situation is degrading. Now problems occur approximately 50% of the time when starting. (cranks, nothing or sputters, then eventually starts perfectly)

Took the coil pack off. There were no cracks in the encapsulation however rust of the magnet iron has caused it to swell so that the plastic housing on one end was cracked. Found another crack that was forming in the black plastic on bottom in the middle.

I replaced the coil, spent $70 and that was not the problem. I didn't have time to get the part for about 1/2 price from RockAuto unfortunately.

Next thing: swap the horn and fuel pump relay.

Also, friend who has a taxi company had a cab that was really acting up and it was the fuel filter. So I'll do that one too.

Frankly, I think it is a bad ground.



Once it starts, it runs perfectly 100% of the time.
All problems occur during start - it either just cranks or starts but ignition misfire/sputtering/backfiring occurs and it "flames out."
Seems to be worse in cold and/or wet weather.

Hopefully, its not the computer.

It finally FAILED TO START!!!! So I could do a little troubleshooting.

Would start with ether. Swapping fuel pump and horn relays did nothing.

I suspect it is the fuel pump - probably had a dead spot.

The symptom was on start. Either engine sputtered and died or it would start and run perfectly. If the pump did manage to spin up, it would work until it was shut down again.

I don't think a fuel filter could be so ON and OFF - one moment no fuel, try again and lots of fuel. I will change it however. Need to find where it is and what tools are required - I'll probably do that in the lot where its sitting right now.

Thanks
Tom

Did you check the fuel pressure? I always replace plugs, wires, and coil at once. Did you check the wires? Could be a bad spot or bad connection on either end of one.

......And then the fuel pump.

At 360k miles, I think I'm on my third, or forth, (one was bad right out of the box!) fuel pump.

Update: BLOWN 15a Fuel Pump Fuse

DETAILS:

So van sat in store lot overnight.

Today went up with hammer to beat on tank and hope it would fire.

Here is the blow by blow: (I make funny?)


Try to start, cranks only
Beat on tank
Try to start, cranks only
Check inertia switch back by jack - OK
Check Fuel Pump15a fuse #5 - BLOWN
Replace fuse
Try to start, STARTS
Drive home
Turn off
Try to start, STARTS

Rockauto has a replacement pump only (not the assembly) for under $40.


Tank is MASSIVE - yuck. Its got about 10 gallon in it. I need to use up that gas before I drop tank. Tempted to cut hole in floor. Is a cargo van so that might not be so cool. (Who knows, maybe there is an inspection hole already there (!) )



I am going to try starting van every time I go outside to see if it reverts back to its old ways - who knows, maybe "cooking" the pump in the lot yesterday might have burned in the brushes/commutator since it blew the fuse.

I'd probably use a piece of 3/4" plywood (or two) on a jack to support that tank. Luckily I haven't had to mess with it thus far. I'd say siphon it out but 10 gallons is a lot more than it sounds!

The tank is huge, but fairly light once empty of fuel. Try hooking a hose to Schraeder port on fuel rail. Long hose. Remove port core. Have end of hose lower than tank bottom. Either syphon or use pump to start flow.

Tried to start it again and got the "sputtering and dies" response.

I'm going to replace the fuel filter next. Mechanic friend though severly clogged filter would cause pump to blow fuse. Not sure about that theory.

Also, what sound does the pump make? Does it run continuously or shut off when it reaches desired pressure?

I take it they make little pressure gauges that fit the Schrader valve on the fuel rail?

Thanks
Tom

Tried to start it again and got the "sputtering and dies" response.

I'm going to replace the fuel filter next. Mechanic friend though severly clogged filter would cause pump to blow fuse. Not sure about that theory.

Also, what sound does the pump make? Does it run continuously or shut off when it reaches desired pressure?

I take it they make little pressure gauges that fit the Schrader valve on the fuel rail?

Thanks
Tom

Fuel pump will make like a humming noise, if you take the gas cap off then put your ear by the filler tube and have someone turn the key on without starting you should hear the pump.

When you turn the key to the run position without starting the fuel pump should run about 2-5 seconds and shut off.

Check with Orielys or autozone, etc they should have a fuel pressure tester in their LOAN A TOOL PROGRAM, just pay a deposit that is returned with tool returned.

Spent a little time with it today.

Will not start, sputtered one or twice and then nothing.

Fuel pump fuse blown again.

Removed Schrader valve and used vacuum took to draw fuel into injector manifold. Very little vacuum was needed to get lots of fuel flow. I do not think it could be the filter now.

So the focus is now on the fuel pump.

I am going to leave this thread and start a new one specifically with the fuel pump fuse topic since it is clear now that there is no fuel pressure.

The tank is huge

It is indeed, a mechanic buddy of mine says it's the largest he's ever seen on a minivan (dang thing costs a fortune to fill, but lasts a while), but also says it's a large minivan. Van ride is smoother with tank full, means it's a lot of fuel weight. Ride becomes noticeably harsher with less than half unless you put more heavy stuff or people inside.

Maybe not fuel pump:

Decided to suck some gas out of the Schrader port on the injector rails using my MytiVac Evacuation gizmo. Had to give up because just couldn't get any gas to flow enough.


I don't know if it should be possible to suck gas here or whether there are check valves or whatever that would preclude this BUT it might be a clogged fuel filter (!)


So I changed it(!)


I cut it open and found no sludge in the can, however, when gas dripped out in the backwards direction, it was brown. Clogged with micro brown "rust?"


Put new one on and a new fuse, it started on 2nd try.

Took it for ride and seriously, it has a lot more mid range and top end HP.

Seriously.


Filter must have been clogged.


Of course now, I'll have to start the van repeatedly every day at home to establish statistically if the problem is gone.


Time will only tell.

Congratulations on repair! But you wonder where the "brown" came from ... and is there more to come?

I hope it is in fact "repaired" but I won't trust it until I start it a couple of dozen times over the next week.

The brown stuff, well, it has 160k on it. There is always risk when you get gas and you notice the fuel flow is very slow because the filter at the gas station is plugged, or you are getting gas when the service station tank is nearly empty..

I know a lot of people replace the fuel filter when the replace the pump. I wonder how many fuel pumps have been replaced because the filter got plugged?

Back to drawing board - it occasionally does not start.

I need to confirm that there is no fuel pressure when it does not start.

I was thinking I could get an injector manifold mini pressure gauge but the question is: Once the injector manifold is pressurized, engine running, when you turn engine off, does pressure remain in the manifold? Or do I need to monitor the gauge while it is cranking and NOT starting?

Next Step:

OK, its hasn't blown a fuse so far and does not start. Need to determine 12v is showing up at the fuel pump. Someone said there is a connector around the front of the tank. Need to get the pin outs and watch for voltage.

If I get voltage and no fuel pressure, then I replace pump.

The last thing I want to do is put the pump in and still have the problem (!)

On my '99, there is a strong residual pressure on the rail ... even overnight ... after the engine is shut down. But this depends on a number of things.

You could try "jumping" a 12v supply to the output receptacle at the fuel pump relay base. That would assure that 12v is at least headed for the fuel pump. Next is the inertia switch.

Yes, there is a pair (I believe) of connectors at the front edge of the fuel tank that you should be able to access.

Just to quickly touch on the rust part of the filter removal. I changed my filter 2 days ago and too noticed a certain amount of rusty gas flow backwards from the front segment of tubing. In looking a bit closer, I believe this rust was from the exterior of the filter, dissolved by the gas, when the gas flowed backwards once the filter tube had been removed from the plastic coupling. I've had this happen each time I've replaced the filter so I don't believe it's reason to be concerned and does sound only coincidental and likely not a contributor to the OP's problem.

If I read the diagrams correctly, the pump motor is fed by a P/B conductor and B is ground. These are the colors at the "tank" connectors ... kinda near the fuel filter you changed out. Don't forget that unless you jumper the relay bases, you will only get a few seconds of fuel pump 12v feed before the electronics turns it off. Of course, you could have a helper switch the system on-off for you.

Ford had a number of truck inertia switches just disintegrate ...could not take the current without burning up ..... S's 2004 Ranger required an up-grade kit (plug and play).. I don't know if any Windstars were affected.

I'm curious about the electronics powering pump a few seconds on start up.

Is that a fixed amount or do they determine that the system is pressurized?

Either way, it sounds like the pump cycles during driving and the logical choice would be to cycle according to rail pressure. I'm guess there is no electronic pressure gauge. So how would you measure this? Current draw on pump?

I think I also need to get a wiring diagram or at least one for the fuel pump and interlocks/relays. Any suggestion here?

Thanks
Tom

I found a circuit diagram of a 2001 fuel pump: http://ww2.justanswer.com/uploads/fordanswerman/2010-12-19_171229_fuel_pump_circuit_01_windstar.gif

The series current flows: 1) fuse, 2) relay, 3) inertia cutoff, and 4) fuel pump.

The PCM controls the relay.

I'll check for voltage at the inertia cutoff first since it is easy.

On the 2000, the pressure is controlled thru mechanical regulator. The fuel pump is given a few seconds run-time 'til the engine is proven to run ... then the pump runs full-time if the PCM sees the engine running.

Later systems operate somewhat differently.

Diagnosing now done:

1) Jumpered inertia switch and measured 12v: It is present when it should be.

2) Plumbed pressure gauge to injector rail: Engine sputters to stop when no fuel pressure in rail. Rail pressure goes to zero while there is 12v at the inertia switch and hopefully the pump too.

That is about all I'm going to check. Time to drop the tank and replace the fuel pump.

If I knew where to cut an inspection hatch in the floor, I would do so. Its a Cargo van so that would probably be easy provided it wasn't under the front seat.

You need to drop the tank before cutting that floorpan ... as there is almost no clearance between the tank and the pan. Dropping the tank is a bad, not impossible, job!

Today's effort: sucked 10 gallons of gas out with my MityVac Extractor Unit which is NOT SUPPOSED TO BE USED WITH FLAMMABLE LIQUIDS!!!!!!!

The only hose I could get down the spout was about 1/4" OD clear vinyl. Took almost 2 hours to get that done.

There's still about 3 or 4 gallons in there, I betja!

Funny how a fuel pump never gives up the ghost unless the tank is nearly full. LOL!

BTW, I have removed the core of the Schraeder valve, clamped on a vinyl tube there ... used the pump to prime hose ... and drained tank fairly well, thru pump. Even if pump is dead, you can usually pull fuel thru it with little problem.

I have a 2000 windstar 3.8 and have the same problems with this van. I've changed the oil every 3000 miles and it has 165,000 miles on it and when it don't get in it's moods it runs very well. I've used it for towing, [after installing a trans cooler] and had NO problems with it pulling 2.4 ton's of gravel. I replaced the intake O rings and gaskets. All O2 censors, the alt. 4 times, the blend door 3 times, took off the suit case muffler and installed a muffler from a 72 Maveric, all the break parts, [due to rust.] , and I'm having the same problem with the fuel pump, and the rough idel after it gets worm. I know that u have to have a stoping time with every old car and its such a shame:shakehead that what the automtive industry has come to. Oh ya, also the trany was replaced because of a great weld inside. Boy do I miss all the muscel cars I had when I was younger. Cannot afford a new car at this time. I just got over back surgery, and a deep wound infection. 5 months of antibotics. Now my wife has breast cancer. Were did the pride go when a new car comes off the line??? Wan't my 73 Caprice back.... thanks 4 reading...

Before you condemn the fuel pump, I'd hook up a the pressure tester to the port on the rail and be sure. I didn't see fuel filter in your maintenance list -- have you changed that within the past couple of years?

Is the check engine light on? If so, scan it and post the codes here. Also, check to be sure you sure you don't have the infamous coil pack issue. I'd remove the coil pack and see if there are any cracks on the back. How long has it been since you removed the intake plenum? You may have clogged EGR ports again if it's been more than 3-4 years. Simply clearing them with a pick can solve these problems. And check the little plastic IMRC bushings next to the plenum too. If they're original, grab the $5 pack from autozone or oreilly's and replace them since they've probably disintegrated by now.

Oh yes the furl filter was just replaced. Rusted out. Will do the test on pressure. Thanks!!!!

Not a FURL it a fuel. OOOPs

No trouble codes? Did you hook up a scan tool? (Drop by autozone or any auto parts store and they'll scan it for free if you don't have one.)

Note: If the fuel filter was pretty plugged up, that could have been what damaged your fuel pump over time. I change the fuel filter every year or two just to try and be extra cautious since changing the pump is so much more work (and the fuel filter, motorcraft brand, is like $8-10 or so on rock auto, so it's one of those "cheap insurance" things)

Pulling the fuel pump is not for sissies. Getting the hoses off the fuel tank and pulling it out without tearing the plastic pipes off the side of the tank while it has 30 lbs of fuel still in it (only 4 gallons) is not for the faint of heart.

That's one reason why checking the fuel pressure is so important. You can either buy one (a $40 gauge is worth it) or "borrow" one from Autozone. This will not only confirm that the pump is bad, but allow you to verify that the regulator is not the cause.

FYI, when my pump failed it didn't drop pressure so much as stop running completely. The worst part was that it was intermittent, so one time it would start fine, but the next it wouldn't start at all until the gas tank was given a good jostling. In that case you can tell it's bad without a pressure gauge, just press the schrader valve on the front part of the fuel rail in and see if the fuel sprays (good) or just dribbles (bad). If it's dripping, the pull the fuel line from the filter and repeat... a bad pump will dribble in both locations.