Rough Idle when windstar is warmed up or very cold
Aldurez
05-24-2012, 05:56 PM
Hi,
I have a 2000 Windstar 3.8l SEL. I started having issues recently and have a few questions for you. To start off, yes I have read the forums and I have a good idea what the problem is but since every problem is a little bit different I will state what the issue is and what I have done so far.
Everything started a couple of months ago. I started the van and the idle was VERY rough, it was as if I was running on 5 cylinders rather then 6. I went back home, parked the car since it was a Sunday and decided to bring the van in the following day. I start the van on Monday, all is fine, no rough idle, everything is smooth. (just so you know, my muffler is not in the best condition but still not very noisy, it had been like that for a few months, I just didnt bother doing anything since it was winter and we have a tendancy to drive with the windows closed here in Canada when it gets cold outside :) ).
I tell my mechanic what happened, leave the car and he calls me back telling me it is the main coil. I asked him if it was split anywhere and he told me no, but to be safe I told him to change it anyway, at this point I dont think its the coil but meh, who knows. My gut tells me its the spark plugs or the wiring.
Either way, a month goes by and wierd things are happening. My car starts up well enough when it is above freezing, but when it was just around freezing idle was rough, no biggie, car warms up a bit and all is good. When I drive the car for 10-15 mins and it is warmed up and hot, when I stop and try to start again, it has a hard time starting (forums seem to indicate IAC). Everytime I put it in gear it stalls when it is really warmed up but when it is cool all is good. When I am driving back from work and going about 70km/h (roughly 1300-1500 rpm) the rpm seems to bump up for just a sec (I think they call that stumbling).
So this is what I think:
IAC or DPFE
-I cleaned the IAC yesterday and once today as per the great instructions on the website I found looking here but that doesn't seem to have solved the issue.
-I cleaned the MAF.
-Checked the hoses to the DPFE, my DPFE is the black one which the website suggests is the newer version and much better. Hoses seem ok.
So after I cleaned the IAC, the van was cold, started it, runs silky smooth until it gets warm and the coolant temp gets to mid way where it should be. Idle seems to slow down and be a bit bumpy (rough by mildly rough). As I put the van in gear it wants to stall unless I rev up a bit more.
As stated at the begining of this rant, my muffler isn't at a 100%, but when I am parked and put the van in drive or reverse I would like to believe the van shouldn't stall. When I stopped the van and started it up again, it started but stalled shortly after. The RPM when I start up is at about slightly above 1000, then as it warms up it lowers to the 500 range.
I have no issues changing parts but I don't want to change things just BECAUSE. I want to have logical reason behind changing them.
BTW no CEL. When I did get a got it was a P0305, cyclinder 5 misfire, but the CEL turned on as it was stalling a few days ago and the CEL turned off afterwards.
Any advice would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks,
Tim
I have a 2000 Windstar 3.8l SEL. I started having issues recently and have a few questions for you. To start off, yes I have read the forums and I have a good idea what the problem is but since every problem is a little bit different I will state what the issue is and what I have done so far.
Everything started a couple of months ago. I started the van and the idle was VERY rough, it was as if I was running on 5 cylinders rather then 6. I went back home, parked the car since it was a Sunday and decided to bring the van in the following day. I start the van on Monday, all is fine, no rough idle, everything is smooth. (just so you know, my muffler is not in the best condition but still not very noisy, it had been like that for a few months, I just didnt bother doing anything since it was winter and we have a tendancy to drive with the windows closed here in Canada when it gets cold outside :) ).
I tell my mechanic what happened, leave the car and he calls me back telling me it is the main coil. I asked him if it was split anywhere and he told me no, but to be safe I told him to change it anyway, at this point I dont think its the coil but meh, who knows. My gut tells me its the spark plugs or the wiring.
Either way, a month goes by and wierd things are happening. My car starts up well enough when it is above freezing, but when it was just around freezing idle was rough, no biggie, car warms up a bit and all is good. When I drive the car for 10-15 mins and it is warmed up and hot, when I stop and try to start again, it has a hard time starting (forums seem to indicate IAC). Everytime I put it in gear it stalls when it is really warmed up but when it is cool all is good. When I am driving back from work and going about 70km/h (roughly 1300-1500 rpm) the rpm seems to bump up for just a sec (I think they call that stumbling).
So this is what I think:
IAC or DPFE
-I cleaned the IAC yesterday and once today as per the great instructions on the website I found looking here but that doesn't seem to have solved the issue.
-I cleaned the MAF.
-Checked the hoses to the DPFE, my DPFE is the black one which the website suggests is the newer version and much better. Hoses seem ok.
So after I cleaned the IAC, the van was cold, started it, runs silky smooth until it gets warm and the coolant temp gets to mid way where it should be. Idle seems to slow down and be a bit bumpy (rough by mildly rough). As I put the van in gear it wants to stall unless I rev up a bit more.
As stated at the begining of this rant, my muffler isn't at a 100%, but when I am parked and put the van in drive or reverse I would like to believe the van shouldn't stall. When I stopped the van and started it up again, it started but stalled shortly after. The RPM when I start up is at about slightly above 1000, then as it warms up it lowers to the 500 range.
I have no issues changing parts but I don't want to change things just BECAUSE. I want to have logical reason behind changing them.
BTW no CEL. When I did get a got it was a P0305, cyclinder 5 misfire, but the CEL turned on as it was stalling a few days ago and the CEL turned off afterwards.
Any advice would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks,
Tim
olopezm
05-24-2012, 09:10 PM
Hi Tim,
Welcome to the forum!
I would disconnect the MAF sensor (when the key is off) and run the vehicle like that to see if the problem goes away; if it does, then a new MAF should solve your problem.
If it doesn't, the you can try the same with the Engine Coolant Temperature Sensor (ECT).
If you suspect the problem might be the DPFE sensor or EGR system (DPFE is part of it), then you can remove the green vacuum hose on top of the EGR valve and drive the van for a while to see if it helps; keep in mind that a CEL code regarding EGR malfunction will trigger.
How old are the spark plugs and wires, if they are old wouldn't it be better to just replace them? They are regular wear items which do need replacement more than other components ;) . As side note, replacing the coil pack was a good move, in these models (99 and later) the coil pack is a known problem because the epoxy at the back of the body starts to crack and the spark arcs to ground causing misfiring and rough idle issues.
Oscar.
Welcome to the forum!
I would disconnect the MAF sensor (when the key is off) and run the vehicle like that to see if the problem goes away; if it does, then a new MAF should solve your problem.
If it doesn't, the you can try the same with the Engine Coolant Temperature Sensor (ECT).
If you suspect the problem might be the DPFE sensor or EGR system (DPFE is part of it), then you can remove the green vacuum hose on top of the EGR valve and drive the van for a while to see if it helps; keep in mind that a CEL code regarding EGR malfunction will trigger.
How old are the spark plugs and wires, if they are old wouldn't it be better to just replace them? They are regular wear items which do need replacement more than other components ;) . As side note, replacing the coil pack was a good move, in these models (99 and later) the coil pack is a known problem because the epoxy at the back of the body starts to crack and the spark arcs to ground causing misfiring and rough idle issues.
Oscar.
Aldurez
05-24-2012, 10:42 PM
Hi Tim,
Welcome to the forum!
I would disconnect the MAF sensor (when the key is off) and run the vehicle like that to see if the problem goes away; if it does, then a new MAF should solve your problem.
If it doesn't, the you can try the same with the Engine Coolant Temperature Sensor (ECT).
If you suspect the problem might be the DPFE sensor or EGR system (DPFE is part of it), then you can remove the green vacuum hose on top of the EGR valve and drive the van for a while to see if it helps; keep in mind that a CEL code regarding EGR malfunction will trigger.
How old are the spark plugs and wires, if they are old wouldn't it be better to just replace them? They are regular wear items which do need replacement more than other components ;) . As side note, replacing the coil pack was a good move, in these models (99 and later) the coil pack is a known problem because the epoxy at the back of the body starts to crack and the spark arcs to ground causing misfiring and rough idle issues.
Oscar.
Hi Oscar,
thanks for the advice.
Trust me, I have been thinking of changing the plugs and wiring. I simply haven't gotten around to that part yet and may change them tomorrow. The problem is I do not understand how or why the idle would get rough when the engine warms up. There are no error codes. I will try out the MAF test, and I may replace the IAC tomorrow as well since that seems to be an item that causes these type of problems. I just don't like replacing parts without being 100% certain. The plugs and wiring is as you stated regular ware but I don't see how that could cause the rough idle as the temp goes up.....,,, gah, I wish I had the money to change all the parts.
Thanks for the advice and I will post my finding tomorrow morning when I test out the MAF.
Night,
Tim
Welcome to the forum!
I would disconnect the MAF sensor (when the key is off) and run the vehicle like that to see if the problem goes away; if it does, then a new MAF should solve your problem.
If it doesn't, the you can try the same with the Engine Coolant Temperature Sensor (ECT).
If you suspect the problem might be the DPFE sensor or EGR system (DPFE is part of it), then you can remove the green vacuum hose on top of the EGR valve and drive the van for a while to see if it helps; keep in mind that a CEL code regarding EGR malfunction will trigger.
How old are the spark plugs and wires, if they are old wouldn't it be better to just replace them? They are regular wear items which do need replacement more than other components ;) . As side note, replacing the coil pack was a good move, in these models (99 and later) the coil pack is a known problem because the epoxy at the back of the body starts to crack and the spark arcs to ground causing misfiring and rough idle issues.
Oscar.
Hi Oscar,
thanks for the advice.
Trust me, I have been thinking of changing the plugs and wiring. I simply haven't gotten around to that part yet and may change them tomorrow. The problem is I do not understand how or why the idle would get rough when the engine warms up. There are no error codes. I will try out the MAF test, and I may replace the IAC tomorrow as well since that seems to be an item that causes these type of problems. I just don't like replacing parts without being 100% certain. The plugs and wiring is as you stated regular ware but I don't see how that could cause the rough idle as the temp goes up.....,,, gah, I wish I had the money to change all the parts.
Thanks for the advice and I will post my finding tomorrow morning when I test out the MAF.
Night,
Tim
Aldurez
05-25-2012, 08:59 AM
Hi,
I did some more tests this morning the problem wasn't quite there this morning. It could be that cleaning the IAC and MAF yesturday helped out a bit, it is unclear at this point. The air was a bit cooler this morning so it could be for that reason I was having less problems.
The idle wasn't really rough this morning once the car warmed up. Yes the rpm was varying a bit but no biggie. The car did stall on 2 occasions while in park, which isn't normal but the car started up very well even when hot. Putting the car in gear didn't stall the car either. I did unplug the MAF and the EGR (one at a time) to see if there was any difference but I can't say there wasn't. I would have thought the EGR would have caused issues when unplugged but it didn't seem to change anything. I drove around the block with the MAF unplugged and all I could say was the shifting of gears seemed a bit harder but not stalls when stopping and starting, yes the CEL turned on with the MAF disconnected. It is difficult to diagnose things when the problem isn't there 100% of the time. I check the TPS sensor with an ohm meter and it didn't have any dead spots in it. I checked for a vac leaks by using carb cleaner on the dpfe and the hoses around it but that didn't prove anything (did the spraying when the car was cold). I find the vac tube on top of the egr to be loosish. It wasn't as difficult to remove as I would have thought, it slid off rather easily and I always thought vac tubes needed to be really tightly fit.
Currently the car is drivable but I don't feel safe with it so it will stay parked. I will try the same test later on today when it warms up. Hopefully it will yield better results. I may change the spark plugs and wires this weekend.
On a side note, once your remove the wiper cowl from the van, is there enough space to change the spark plugs from the top as well as change the cables from the stop? Obviously the spark plugs in the front will be easier to change but GAHHHH the rear ones seem like a bitch to change. Any advice on changing them would be appreciated.
Thanks again for the advice!!!
Tim
I did some more tests this morning the problem wasn't quite there this morning. It could be that cleaning the IAC and MAF yesturday helped out a bit, it is unclear at this point. The air was a bit cooler this morning so it could be for that reason I was having less problems.
The idle wasn't really rough this morning once the car warmed up. Yes the rpm was varying a bit but no biggie. The car did stall on 2 occasions while in park, which isn't normal but the car started up very well even when hot. Putting the car in gear didn't stall the car either. I did unplug the MAF and the EGR (one at a time) to see if there was any difference but I can't say there wasn't. I would have thought the EGR would have caused issues when unplugged but it didn't seem to change anything. I drove around the block with the MAF unplugged and all I could say was the shifting of gears seemed a bit harder but not stalls when stopping and starting, yes the CEL turned on with the MAF disconnected. It is difficult to diagnose things when the problem isn't there 100% of the time. I check the TPS sensor with an ohm meter and it didn't have any dead spots in it. I checked for a vac leaks by using carb cleaner on the dpfe and the hoses around it but that didn't prove anything (did the spraying when the car was cold). I find the vac tube on top of the egr to be loosish. It wasn't as difficult to remove as I would have thought, it slid off rather easily and I always thought vac tubes needed to be really tightly fit.
Currently the car is drivable but I don't feel safe with it so it will stay parked. I will try the same test later on today when it warms up. Hopefully it will yield better results. I may change the spark plugs and wires this weekend.
On a side note, once your remove the wiper cowl from the van, is there enough space to change the spark plugs from the top as well as change the cables from the stop? Obviously the spark plugs in the front will be easier to change but GAHHHH the rear ones seem like a bitch to change. Any advice on changing them would be appreciated.
Thanks again for the advice!!!
Tim
olopezm
05-26-2012, 12:43 AM
Hi Tim,
Higher temps will increase the resistance of electrical components, that's it will cause problems.
There is enough space to replace plugs and wires after removing the cowl, you'll need to lean on the engine but it's not that bad.
Oscar.
Higher temps will increase the resistance of electrical components, that's it will cause problems.
There is enough space to replace plugs and wires after removing the cowl, you'll need to lean on the engine but it's not that bad.
Oscar.
Aldurez
05-28-2012, 06:49 AM
Just wanted to say I changed the plugs and wires yesturday and to my delight all seems to be working well now. The plugs were worn out but it is obvious they were not gapped, they were almost twice the recommended gap!!!! I will have to go smack the mechanic who changed the plugs the last time.
Although accessing the rear plugs wasn't easy, I cannot say it was really difficult either. Removing the cowling was easy. Sadly I found opening the wire harness clips more difficult to deal with then replacing the plugs.
Thanks for all the advice, you were spot on!!!
Be safe,
Tim
Although accessing the rear plugs wasn't easy, I cannot say it was really difficult either. Removing the cowling was easy. Sadly I found opening the wire harness clips more difficult to deal with then replacing the plugs.
Thanks for all the advice, you were spot on!!!
Be safe,
Tim
northern piper
05-28-2012, 03:25 PM
one thing you may want to watch as well is the ignition coil. I've heard some funny stories of the coil due to changes in hot/cold expanding/contracting which led to flexing and therefore the spark was intermittent to the wire and thus plug. If you haven't replaced that, it might be next on your list, despite the fact that the problem seems to have been solved.
just some good old windstar food for thought!
oh, ps..welcome to the forum
just some good old windstar food for thought!
oh, ps..welcome to the forum
olopezm
05-28-2012, 07:36 PM
Hi Tim,
it's good to know your Windstar is running OK again! Glad that we could help you.
Regards,
Oscar.
it's good to know your Windstar is running OK again! Glad that we could help you.
Regards,
Oscar.
Aldurez
05-30-2012, 08:54 AM
one thing you may want to watch as well is the ignition coil. I've heard some funny stories of the coil due to changes in hot/cold expanding/contracting which led to flexing and therefore the spark was intermittent to the wire and thus plug. If you haven't replaced that, it might be next on your list, despite the fact that the problem seems to have been solved.
just some good old windstar food for thought!
oh, ps..welcome to the forum
Yup, the coil was the first thing that was changed. I had asked the mechanic to check the cables and plugs and he said they were ok. It is quick obvious at this point in time that he didn't. I want to go see the mechanic and tell him what a nice guy he is but I won't since it arguing won't change anything. It's not like he said he changed the plugs and wires and didn't do so.... <sigh> Basically since I didn't think it was the plugs I cleaned everything and checked all the sensors. To be honest cleaning those sensors and learning how everything works together wasn't a bad experience. These forums are a GOD SEND!!! There is soooo much information and the people are very friendly.
Many thanks once again,
Tim
just some good old windstar food for thought!
oh, ps..welcome to the forum
Yup, the coil was the first thing that was changed. I had asked the mechanic to check the cables and plugs and he said they were ok. It is quick obvious at this point in time that he didn't. I want to go see the mechanic and tell him what a nice guy he is but I won't since it arguing won't change anything. It's not like he said he changed the plugs and wires and didn't do so.... <sigh> Basically since I didn't think it was the plugs I cleaned everything and checked all the sensors. To be honest cleaning those sensors and learning how everything works together wasn't a bad experience. These forums are a GOD SEND!!! There is soooo much information and the people are very friendly.
Many thanks once again,
Tim
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