New Mystery

Hi All ! (again)
Thanks again to 12Ounce for his latest suggestion for my 2000 Ford Windstar.

I purchased another relay to replace the #304 position relay. THERE WAS NO RELAY IT THAT POSITION !

I'll explain; About 1-1/2 years ago, my ignition key began to act up. It would intermittently activate the starter, until it quite working altogether.
I got my Windstar towed to a local shop. Since it needed a complete re-build of the steering column (expensive) and couldn't afford it, a mechanic agreed to take a short-cut.

He installed a push-button switch near the headlight switch, and it worked just fine. Although it would start the engine in any gear or not, I was satisfied.

Today, when I re-opened the fuse box to replace the relay in the #304 position, all I found was an empty socket with a jumper wire with a spade fitting plugged into the most forward slot.
This relay is supposed to be also the relay for my fuel injectors. My question is: How did my injectors work for the past 1-1/2 years without it????

Can I leave the jumper wire and still plug the relay into the slots? (it will fit)
Is there anything else I need to check to see why my injectors are not getting electrical current?
Any help would be greatly appreciated !

Since no one has answered so far, I'll ask another question. Could my Power Control Module be fried? If so, can I take one off another 2000 Windstar and simply plug the new one in?

I can't answer as to how the injectors have been working in the past for you...it may be rather straightforward, there was a jumper instead of relay contacts.... and you (usually) got away with it.

I would prefer a relay, instead of jumpers, in the 304 position. Remove the jumper. As I believe there is an advantage in having that slight time-delay as the various relays "make". It turns out that both relay #304 and relay #207 are in a series circuit that feeds the fuel pump. So they take a bit of a beating. The contacts wear and burn over time. I have had to replace both of these relays several times on my 330k mile '99 ... and have learned to keep a spare pair on board.

DO NOT CONSIDER replacing the PCM. It is very robust. If you replace the PCM, you will likely either: (1) end up at the dealership for a very expensive PCM/instrument-panel/ignition-key synchronizing with proprietary service equipment, or (2), sending your vehicle to recycle.

I'm sure you have done it by now .... but make sure there are no missing relays or fuses in the other positions.

Thanks again 12Ounce, I WAS going to try replacing the PCM, but after reading your post, I won't.

Since my ignition key will NOT engage the starter, could I plug the #304 relay in, while leaving the jumper in place, to use the starter button?

Also, I am NOT getting electrical current to the fuel injectors. The circuit has gone dead. I don't know what else to look for if not the PCM. (but I haven't yet tried the jumper/relay combo yet either)

The relay should totally/correctly do whatever the jumper was doing. Remove the jumper. Install the relay ... and give us an update on symptoms.

In the meantime, I'm gonna try to find my circuit diagram book for the Windstar to see what drives the injectors. Stay tuned!

Can you describe/identify what conductors the Gerry-rigged pushbutton is attached too?

BTW ...please do not start another string until we get this thing all sorted out! Its getting a bit difficult to stitch the story together!

Now I am concerned about the short cut the guy took .... and what was wrong with the "steering column" to begin with? I suspect the ignition switch was bad. They do fail with wear. Operated by a link-rod attached to the key tumbler. About the size of a cigarette pack .... down inside the column cover about 24" below the strg wheel. $50 IIRC.

So now what has he jumpered out? There may also be something inside the column cover down at the switch. Wish you would look.

This is what I hate about short-cuts and re-engineering. It usually is not well documented. Gets one out of the woods .... for awhile. Then no one knows whats what!

Enough of that. It will take me a few hours to put my hands on my Winny elect book. Could you also give us a fresh accounting of its final run hours ... how exactly did it seem to fail? Do you have any idea what the codes are?

No new strings ... please!

Since this was the most recent string you started .... I'm gonna bump it back on top.

I now have my elect diagrams. The injectors are fed directly from the PCM .... with inputs from the crank and cam position sensors, the ECT, the throttle pos sensor, etc , etc.

Do you have any new information for us? .... any answers to above questions? ... what are current sysmptoms?

I'll stay with this posting to avoid any further confusion, sorry 'bout that !

The following is a copy from my latest reply to a different thread (Cringe ! )

Thanks again for everyone's help, and, no new thread ! LOL

OK, first, I had the #302 and the #304 relay's backwards (I was reading the inside cover diagram backwards).

I now have a new #304 relay installed. The #302 (start interrupt) is the one that is missing and where the jumper wire is located to crank the engine from the dash mounted push-button.

I disconnected one fuel injector plug and attached my multi-meter, turned the key to the "on" position, and cranked the engine. The test meter showed voltage activity. I couldn't get an exact voltage reading as the meter would not respond fast enough to read the brief pluse.

I have purged all the air out of the line with the fuel-line purge valve and have fuel.

The engine cranks and runs with gasoline injected directly into the intake manifold.

The engine will not continue running nor start, without an initial prime.

I've checked for any "massive" vacuum leaks and found none.

What could I be overlooking? Please help.

OK, it appears that after I admitted that I got the #302 & #304 relays backwards, I guess everyone figures that since I so DUMB, that my question doesn't even warrent an answer!

Well ! I've got news for you guys ! I'M NOT as dumb as you think! I CAN "walk-and-chew-gum" at the same time! How do I know?

I've done it on several occasions!

......The engine cranks and runs with gasoline injected directly into the intake manifold.......

Great! We/you are making progress!

It sounds like the initial cranking (without the raw fuel in the intake) is not totally effective ... (1)(2)so is the fuel insufficient, or poorly timed?.... or, (3) is the cranking not recognized?. .... or, (4) something else, unknown?

(1) Did you ever clean the inlet screens of the injectors?
(2) How about the cam position sensor synchronizer? Is it timed properly? Does it need a few drops of motor oil down the shaft for lubricant?
(3) We can be pretty sure the PCM is OK, since it will run ... but how about the crank and cam sensors? Are they flakely?
(4) Is there any way you can drive it somewhere and have the code(s) read?

Thanks 12Ounce, at least someone thinks I'm smarter than a potato!

1) What inlet screens?
2) What cam position sensor? And the oil goes where?
3) Crank and cam sensors,...........flakey? As in crumblling apart?
4) I could hire a midget to sit on a fender, (with the hood open) to pour gasoline into a funnel that drains into the intake, while he gives me directlions where to turn and what not to hit, as I drive over to the local Autozone!

Thanks 12Ounce, at least someone thinks I'm smarter than a potato!

1) What inlet screens?
2) What cam position sensor? And the oil goes where?
3) Crank and cam sensors,...........flakey? As in crumblling apart?
4) I could hire a midget to sit on a fender, (with the hood open) to pour gasoline into a funnel that drains into the intake, while he gives me directlions where to turn and what not to hit, as I drive over to the local Autozone!


Have you thought about seing if autozone has a code reader in their rent a tool program??? Pay a deposit and read the code take it back and get your deposit refunded.

tempfixit
I'll try that route..........thanks!

I've been busy reading about injector inlet screens and how to clean them. I dread having to remove the intake again because I've got so much RTV adhesive (sensor safe!) holding the two halfs together that I could probably remove the bolts and notice no difference. (clam-shell gasket no longer sealed due to age)

Would it do me any good to cut both fuel lines and put 80-90 psi through the injector rails (reverse flow) to blow-out any possible blockage?

I asked that last question because I had a '89 Plymouth Voyager that had a "smilar" problem. It took me forever, but I discovered that the fuel line had de-laminated internally (engine side of the firewall) and had a loose piece of rubber in the line, blocking the injectors.

OR

Should I just "roll-up-my-shirt-sleeves" and just go to work and dismantle everything?

I've been reading about injector inlet screens and how to clean them. Question: Autozone sells a gallon (paint can size) can of a general purpose solvent, parts de-greaser with a little screened bucket inside. could I use this to drop my injectors into and let sit overnight? (after I've removed the rubber O-ring of course)

Now I'm getting excited ! I've identified and located my cam sensor, but it was getting too dark to see if the plastic was "crumblilng". (I NOW understand what 12Ounce was saying about "crumbling")

I will go to my friend who owns a local car bone-yard and pull one off another Windstar with MUCH fewer miles than mine (He has one)

Tomorrow morning, I'll visit Autozone and try to borrow their electronic gizmo for reading codes. (They know me well at one particular store and have let me borrow expensive tools many times because I ALWAYS return them, and return them throughly cleaned-up as well. In other words, I return items in better shape than when I borrowed them. I have a good reputation there.)

I have to do most of my work from a wheel-chair (due to two auto accidents back-to-back) and have limited time to stand. Just to remove the cowl, remove the air-filter, throttle plate assy, then the intake plenum, is a ALL-DAY project, sunrise to sunset.....Uggggggggg !!!

I misunderstood ... I thought you were writing that now if the engine was now started (by using raw fuel in intake), it would continue to run. Now I understand .... as soon as the initial raw fuel is consumed, the engine stops. Yes??

By "flaky", I meant "electrically flaky" .... however, if you see the plastic body failing on any sensor, cam or crank, .... I would certainly think it to be suspect.

NO NO, DO NOT SOAK/IMMERGE INJECTOR BODYS IN CLEANER. I was suggesting a sideways blast, using aerosol brake cleaner, at the inlet (inlet screens) of the injectors ... once the injectors are removed and on a work table. (Let's hold off on this idea for the time being .... don't want to get too many aggressive things going on a one time!

The fuel lines are not failing inside .... do not need any cleaning! Stop this thought process.

Get the codes read and let's restart!

While you are at AutoZone, see if they have a NOID injector test light kit.

After a few day delay, I finally got a code-reader hooked up to my Windstar. It said, "Pass, no codes found".

Impossible! Before it quit running, it had ALL SORTS OF CODES ! I don't remember them all other than; lean bank 1 and lean bank 2, and a bunch of others.

What's going on? Anyone got any ideas? (it still won't start, but it's getting fuel to the fuel rail)

Thanks in Advance!

In addition to my previous post (the one just above this one), I was told by the folks at Autozone that my PCM is dead.

If I get another pcm from a Windstar of the same year, and a KEY, will it install without much trouble?

No one has answered my previous two comments yet, so I'll continue with my "thinking-out-loud". On second thoughts, it CAN't be the pcm. As I previously mentioned, if I squirt gasoline directly into the intake, the engine will run. If the pcm wasn't working, that wouldn't happen either.

I changed out the fuel regulator yesterday, and after turning the key on-and-off a few times to build up pressure, the amount and strength of fuel spraying from the fuel rail purge valve, is MUCH stronger.

In addition, it has a new pcm relay. All fuses are OK. Still won't start on it's own without a prime (and won't continue running after the prime is gone)

Anyone?
Fell free to just "jump right in"! Any and all comments are welcomed and wanted !

No one has answered my previous two comments yet, so I'll continue with my "thinking-out-loud". On second thoughts, it CAN't be the pcm. As I previously mentioned, if I squirt gasoline directly into the intake, the engine will run. If the pcm wasn't working, that wouldn't happen either.

I changed out the fuel regulator yesterday, and after turning the key on-and-off a few times to build up pressure, the amount and strength of fuel spraying from the fuel rail purge valve, is MUCH stronger.

In addition, it has a new pcm relay. All fuses are OK. Still won't start on it's own without a prime (and won't continue running after the prime is gone)

Anyone?
Fell free to just "jump right in"! Any and all comments are welcomed and wanted !

In all of your threads nothing has been mentioned that you have tested the fuel pressure with a gauge. You stated the fuel pump was changed but with a unit out of another vehicle. (used pump) Did the donor engine run with the pump that you removed and installed in your vehicle??? Again autozone should have a fuel pressure tester in their loan a tool program. Did antozone have a Noid injecter test light kit?

Thank you for your reply. Yesterday, I got a Autozone fuel pressure test kit and discovered that the particular fitting I need for the Windstar (and other Fords) was missing.

I will go to Advanced Auto today and get their pressure test kit. Since I need to remove a lot of "stuff" to get to the fuel rail wiring harness connector to use the noid kit, I'll have to do that over the next two days. I have a LOT of silicone sealant (ATV and sensor safe) all over the intake, it will be very difficult to get everything un-glued without destroying or damaging the plastic intake parts.

I'll post the pressure results.

I've been "away" for a few days.

I'm glad you have put the PCM off your radar screen. I agree with the concern about the fuel pressure. Now is a good time to have it tested. I was a bit concerned when I read you had harvested a fuel pump from a used vehicle. Risky! I would only use new replacements. Too bad that the fuel pump is so difficult to replace on the Windstar.

My '99 has some 330K miles on it now. The current fuel pump is the fourth, maybe the fifth, one it has had.