No crank condition - not found in search of thread

1995, 223k miles, has been running fine, no issues. full disclosure, three items have issues: the horn does not work, cruise control does not work AND the airbag flashes code 3 2 (high resistance or open circuit). [ I figure the clodk spring is shot but cannot imagine how that can lead to the no crank condition after a month of these deature issues.]

Then:

one son tells me he had a problem starting - heard clicking under dash. Second try it started.

second son reports same on next day.

I try to start, and I get the following:

turn to "On" position, all is normal
turn to start, there is generally 1 click and all lights go out. Release from start, and lights are dim, there is clicking under dash,

Sounds like classic discharged or bad battery. The battery is one year old 72 month unit.

I charge it for several hours. No change in no crank.

Attempt to jump start. No go, no crank

Pull battery out an take to Advance Auto for testing. They say it is a good battery.

return, connect second vehicle to battery terminals (both are clean) attempt to crank. No Go. And there is no appaent drain on the vehicle providing the current.

Decide to investigate the clicking. Clicking is coming from Battery save relay AND from interior lighting relay.
removing the interior lighting relay does nothing for the no crank condition.

Test ignition switch. Seems to be some question on continuity, so I replace switch. No change in no crank.

I have reached my limit so call towing service to take van to Merchants Tire so they can hook up diagnostics. They call back next day, saying that they cannot find the problem. Will need to charge additional fees for additional hours of diagnostics. I comment to them that obsiously I had the vehicle towed to the wrong place. They say, "We'll get back to you"

I would suggest installing a "jump around" conductor. I installed such on my '99. This is an insulated wire, 16ga or so, that goes from the crank-command terminal ("red", I think) on the starter (the conductor is installed tightly on this terminal) and goes up in the area of the battery. The battery end is bared for an inch or so ... and is stored in some safe fashion, not to be shaken loose ... and so that the bare conductor end will not find chassis ground by mistake.

Yes, its best to find the root cause of your problem and get it tended. But when some crank issue has you stranded in bad weather or in some unsafe situation its best to have something that will get you going again.

When you have a no-crank situation .... you make sure the brakes are secure, the tranny is in P or N, the key is "on" ....and you remove the bare end of the conductor from its safe storage and press it against the positive battery terminal. Almost gauranteed to work ... unless you have battery or battery cable issues.

I use a short lenght of old 3/4" garden hose to store the conductor. Just fold over the end and push into hose.

Thanks much. I thought about doing this (and you are connecting to the solenoid activation termnal - correct?) but have a general aversion to messing with circuits.

But this may be something I will do on this vehicle (I have four other Mercedes, older, whose electrical issues, when they occurr, are straight forward).

Between you and me, I would think that when a full service shop comes up with snake eyes on their diagnostic, that they would do as you suggest to compkletely eliminate the solenoid, starter motor and battery as the culprits. In this case they have, suggested that those elements are OK, but I need to ask pointed questions specifically of what they tested and how they tested.

If they have not "jumped the starter" I believe I request that they do so. And if they have not tested the battery to measure cranking amps when they hit the ignition switch (without the jumpered starter) I will also request that to eliminate a "bad cell" condition not recognized in the static test by Advance Auto)

THanks again

......and you are connecting to the solenoid activation termnal - correct?.......

Yes .... and I love messing with circuits. I think electrical design engineers are about the most elitist of the elite. (Who else would mount rear speakers on sliding side doors? Who else would dictate that we have ac when we select demisting? And the chimes .... give me a break! ....)

I would LOVE to know how to stop the chimes already!!! It enought to have a light advising that a door might not be closed properly. I mean we're not talking about a 747 preparing for takeoff!!

Thanks

I did not want to stop the chimes altogether, but could not find a way to turn the volumne down .... so I removed the instrument cluster, found the chime bell speaker ... and fill the back of it with RTV. Now you can hear it ... if you listen closely!

One other thing to try is to shift into Neutral.
The Transmission Range Sensor (TRS) is also called "Neutral Safety Switch"
It prevents the vehicle from starting (turning over) when the gear select is in any position other than PARK or NEUTRAL.
Shifting it into Neutral will move the connection......in the event of a bad connection in the PARK position.
Worth a quick try, since that part is known to fail in other ways.

Door open indication, there are sensors that detect the door being closed.
The sensor is part of the latch assembly for the front doors (no more pin switch by the hinges).
A VERY common cause is dirty or sticking pin switches (or buttons) on the sliding side door.
There should be 4 push button switches....2 are for the electric lock and 2 are for door closed sense.
Make sure that they are still springy....so that they press against the contact pads on the door pillar.
Also make sure that the door pillar contacts are clean so that you get a good electrical connection.
There are 2 door closed sensors for the rear hatch as well.

YES, a full service shop should be able to diagnose a no crank condition.
The Windstar is not some rare vehicle, and the circuitry used in the Windstar is used in MANY vehicles.
I can understand when it is a unusual vehicle, but a common vehicle should not be that tough to diagnose, unless it is a dreaded intermittent type failure that refuses to happen when a mechanic is working on it.

Update, and I find this rather stunning. Merchants tire is reporting that I have a short in the ground cable. They further report that the only source for this is the dealer and that it comes in a combination ground and hot wire harness. Further they report that it requires about two hours for installation.

They are asking for $500 to procure the part and install.

Gosh, my other 4 vehicles are Mercedes and I find this sort of situation amazing.

Anybody out there ever had the ground cable short?

Thanks.

If you are referring to the battery ground cable, I had some go bad internally. But 500 is BS. I would take it away from them. Rockauto shows a negative battery cable for $5. About the door chime. I am not sure about the Windstar, but some vehicles if the dome light or fuse burns out, the chimes go off all the time. It's to let you know in daylight hours that the dome light is burnt.

When mystified by some problem .... many mechanics find knowledger and comfort in "more money".

(I don't know what it has to do with anything, either!)

Resolved, and I am more than a bit embarrassed. I went over to Merchants this evening to see what they were talking about. They kindly took me out to the van which was on a lift. They dropped it down and I noticed that they had changed out the negative terminal attachment.

The tech got in the van and cranked it, it starts like nothing is wrong.

What I did not hear in the phone conversation, and I don't think it was spoken, was that they were recommending a permanent repair and that the replacement teminal is always a "temproary" thing, as it was when I replaced the original terminal some 5 years ago.

What I am embarrassed about is that I did not take this terminal apart inspect and clean it and reassemble. All the signs were there of a poor grounding connection. I choose to believe that this connection was good becasue there was NO visual evidence of corrosion. In fact there was corrosion. Just not the sort that can be seen with the naked eye.

Further I am embarrassesd that I didn't take this additional step before I brought it to this wonderful forum.
I thank each and everyone of you for your expertise.

Hind sight is 20/20.
Most problems have a "simple" fix....It is just a matter of finding that specific simple fix for your particular problem.

I did have a similar problem with a different vehicle.....and it was the cable connection on the battery.
They were tight, dry and no sign of any corrosion.
When I turned the key to the start position, the dome lights dimmed and it did not turn over.
I tried a bunch of things....and finally monitored the voltage at the battery terminals.....stayed up when the dome lights dimmed......so I removed the battery cables and sanded them...and wire brushed the inside of the cable terminal ends, even though they "looked" great......problem solved.

So if this terminal lasts you another 5 years...........

Good for you, that you have the problem fixed and that you got back with the forum. Don't be embarrassed... we've all done worse!

When I'm president, I'm going to require all adults to buy a volt-ohmmeter. After all, it costs less .... and does more good/makes more sense than having to buy health insurance!

It sounds as though the contact between the add-on terminal and the ground wire had corroded to the point that there is a high resistance between the battery and the wire, on the ground wire.

FYI, I have purchased (for another vehicle) a generic solder-on type replacement terminal. It took a fair amount of heat (i.e. a propane torch) to heat it for soldering, which I did with the wire removed from the vehicle, but it has been a permanent and reliable solution. I have always been suspicious of the "clamp-down" type wire connections for the battery terminals, precisely because of the corrosive environment at the battery.

Also, I will no long do business with Merchant Tire (or any of their sister companies, such as Tire King), because last year they installed defective tires on my vehicle. While they replaced the most obviously flawed one (cupped), I was still not happy with the ride (very rough). They would not acknowledge that there was a problem after two more visits to their store. They also torqued the lug bolts to >200 ft-lb (2x the specified torque). I refuse to pay them any more money for sub-standard work and products.

glad you got it figured out. When these "huge" problems start, I find it frequently is not the high tech stuff (eg electronics, relays) but general mechanics stuff. Good battery, good starter, reliable ground, solid alternator, clean gas, ... you get the point. Once all those "old school" things are checked, then move to the more sophisticated systems. I've often taken a jumper cable and run it from the battery to the starter and looked like a genius.. Bad ground, pretty common.

Anyway, glad to hear you're up and running and no embarrassment should be felt (the first time :tongue:)