2002 windstar engine pinging??????

Hi,, I have 2002 windstar and lately I have noticed that it has been pinging when under load..like going up hills or accelerating somewhat medium to heavy..and I have seem to notice it more than in the past,,,in fact I dont recall hearing it ping in the past...the ping sounds like that cheap gas ping that you would hear in cars back in the 80s and 90s,,,never heard it until lately...was wondering if a sensor or timing or some other issue can be involved....thanks..

The BEST information that I can direct you to is here....
http://leckemby.net/windstar/windstar01.html

It is likely that you have a vaccum leak, which is what the isolator bolt issue causes.
A vaccum leak is anytime air enters the cylinders that has NOT passed through the Mass AirFlow sensor (MAF).
The MAF is mounted on the Air filter box, so any air that enters the intake at any point between there and the intake valves.
The air that is pulled in through the PCV valve (in the front valve cover on your 2002) is replaced by air drawn in through the breather tube (rear valve cover on your 2002) which connects to the big flex hose between the air filter box and the throttle body.
This is air that HAS passed through the MAF (if that tube is not connected, however, that would be a vaccum leak as air would be drawn into the flex hose instead of out of it)

Another likely cause is the IMRC actuator, which on your 2002 is 1 electric actuator that is supposed to control both of the IMRC shafts.
What happens is that the nylon clips that connect the rods between the actuator and the IMRC shafts fall off.
This leaves 1 or both of the IMRC shafts flapping whatever way they want.
This can cause the symptoms you are seeing.

Normal tune-up items, such as fuel filter, spark plugs, air filter and so on should be verified to be in good shape.

Another cause could be an issue with the EGR system.
The EGR flow sensor, called DPFE on the Windstar, is a common issue.
Also, clogged EGR ports is a common issue.
The EGR valve on the Windstar is quite reliable and rarely fails.

hi wiswind...well to start...I did the isolator bolt /vacuum leak cure when I bought the van a few years ago and recently read about the clips on the imrc shafts and thought that had to be it but checked them and they seem intacted....also the dpfe was replaced not to long ago before the pinging issue started...you have me curious about a vacuum leak in the breather tube...I will check this...Im not to up on the IMRC..can you explain this to me?

IMRC, Intake Manifold Runner Control.
The reason that the upper intake is big is because there are 2 intake ports for each cylinder.
1 set is open all the time.
The other set has a plate that is mounted on a shaft.
Each bank of 3 cylinders has 3 plates, 1 for each cylinder mounted on a shaft.
Under certain conditons, above roughly 2900rpm, like hard accellertation (just reving the motor does not do it) the IMRC actuator turns the shafts, opening the 2nd port for each cylinder, giving you a boost of extra power.
If the extra ports are open at low RPM, it can cause drivability issues and cause lower fuel economy.

Regarding your pinging, the most common (by far), cause is a vaccum leak.
Carbon buildup inside the cylinders can also cause this.
The FORD solution for the carbon buildup is to reprogram the PCM (computer) to not advance the timing so much.

One other thing that you can do is to treat a tank of gasoline with Berryman's B-12 Chemtool.
This particular cleaner is a strong solvent type of cleaner that will clean the fuel injectors very well.

The BEST information that I can direct you to is here....
http://leckemby.net/windstar/windstar01.html

It is likely that you have a vaccum leak, which is what the isolator bolt issue causes.
A vaccum leak is anytime air enters the cylinders that has NOT passed through the Mass AirFlow sensor (MAF).
The MAF is mounted on the Air filter box, so any air that enters the intake at any point between there and the intake valves.
The air that is pulled in through the PCV valve (in the front valve cover on your 2002) is replaced by air drawn in through the breather tube (rear valve cover on your 2002) which connects to the big flex hose between the air filter box and the throttle body.
This is air that HAS passed through the MAF (if that tube is not connected, however, that would be a vaccum leak as air would be drawn into the flex hose instead of out of it)

Another likely cause is the IMRC actuator, which on your 2002 is 1 electric actuator that is supposed to control both of the IMRC shafts.
What happens is that the nylon clips that connect the rods between the actuator and the IMRC shafts fall off.
This leaves 1 or both of the IMRC shafts flapping whatever way they want.
This can cause the symptoms you are seeing.

Normal tune-up items, such as fuel filter, spark plugs, air filter and so on should be verified to be in good shape.

Another cause could be an issue with the EGR system.
The EGR flow sensor, called DPFE on the Windstar, is a common issue.
Also, clogged EGR ports is a common issue.
The EGR valve on the Windstar is quite reliable and rarely fails.

Wiswind,

Can you clarify the portion above regarding the PCV valve. I know the PCV valve brings crankcase gasses up to be reburned. I assumed the fitting on the back valve cover did the same. Were you saying the rear hose is putting gases back into the crankcase?

Mark

Hi Schadd here again....well checked the hoses under the hood and seen one that was questionable so I replaced it...dont know if it was my imagination but it seemed like it helped for a bit but now it still pings and I got a low idle miss (at least thats when I feel it)....I wonder if its a timing issue or what....any ideas....

Might be just coincidence, I had the same problem with pinging under load and missing at idle; I installed new spark plugs and the problem seems to be gone.

Oscar.

If the problem is gone....don't argue with success......
One thing that comes to mind with the 1999 and newer Windstar with the "Isolator bolt" issue is the FORD TSB that gives a reflash of the PCM that slightly retards the timing.....
The issue is that if the extra oil vapor enters the engine long enough.....carbon builds up inside the cylinders, which increases the compression.
My solution, OVER delay of timing, would be to use a higher octane gasoline.....try 89.....and if that is not enough...try Premium.....92 or 93 octane (US values here).

The above thread.....spark plugs.....brings up a point that I have mentioned many times.
Address ANY routine maintenance items BEFORE looking to the exotic or expensive solutions.
Many people drive a vehicle until something goes wrong......there are things that are listed in the owner's manual that need to be addressed at specific times/mileage.......look to those FIRST.

I actually wondered about plugs...could it be that simple....I checked vacuum lines,plug wires ,coil, and all other things I could think of...is there any cleaner for carbon just for the heck of it and yes I will try the plugs......

I was reading about using a sea foam cleaning method on web site LT1 engine web site under how to sea foam your car /clean carbon out wondered what wiswind or anyone thinks of this or have tried it....anyone???

Some people agree with using seafoam and some others don't because the possibility of having big chunks of carbon loose in the cylinders is NOT a good idea. I personally haven't used it so can't comment about it.

Oscar.

81,000 Miles.

I have also been chasing down this pinging issue and did pass 2 cans of Berryman's Chemtool through the Brake Booster Vacuum hose in 2 separate occasions. The engine did run much better but still had the pinging sound under load as you described. I then removed the Upper Intake Plenum and cleaned the EGR ports and butterfly valves with Berryman's Throttle Body Spray and that cured the pinging. While I was in there I checked the IMRC rod with plastic clips and they looked worn, while moving them around I ended up braking one of the clips off the rod. So I purchased a new set from Dorman (47099) and will be replacing the whole set soon, but the pinging issue seems to be gone. Also, I purchased a new DPFE (Black) because my van still has the old (Silver) one on it. Good Luck.

Note: I have the Original (silver) DPFE and never had a CEL code set, should I replace it anyway? Does this cause the EGR Ports to clog?

I am thinking of looking at that...I had the intake plenum off a couple years ago for the isolator bolt issue and cleaned the ports but a lot can happen in two years....and thank you for your response,,,,nice to hear from someone chasing down the same issues...Ill let ya know what I find.....am open to other ideas as well....

I also did my intake a few years ago like you and again now. This time the EGR Ports looked better than before but were accumulating gunk on some on them. I would also recommend seafoam via the brake booster vacuum line. I drove the vehicle today and tried to recreate the pinging situation without success. Good Luck.

what did you clean the ports with?

Just use a pick or a paper clip to pull all the build up inside the ports; holding a vacuum cleaner next to each port surely helps to prevent the sludge from falling somewhere else.

Oscar.

I used Throttle Body Spray by Berryman's to clean out the ports with a pick. I didnt have access to a vacuum so I used shop towels to catch any gunk. I again drove to van today and no pinging even though one of the IMRC clips is broken and the metal arm is laying on the Engine. This is because I made sure to close the secondary butterfly valve in the Intake before buttoning it up. Good Luck

well looks like I have a starting point (and hopefully a cure) to work on....right now the van is in the body shop getting the sliding doors replaced due to rust so look forward to tearing into it...

well, heres an update....took plenum off ..I noticed a lot of oil in the plenum and cleaned it up....the butterfly valves had a lot of black carbon on them,,,,I cleaned them up with cleaner and cleaned the egr ports...( had some built up)...I them did the sea foam in the vacuum line carbon cleaning...seemed to go ok.....but the plugs had a lot of build up...in fact they were not good looking....replaced plugs....cleaned things up and no more pinging and miss........buttttttttt....whats causing the draw of oil though the pvc line....it had been a long time that the pcv valve was replaced so I got one and put on today...what causes the oil to be drawn into the intake plenum,,,and how to solve it....??????? any ideas???

Good to know your problem's are gone!

That's normal in these engines; Ford issued the TSB about the isolator bolts and also a replacement for the valve cover which "should" resolve the oil problem, but I read it doesn't. I personally haven't replaced that cover, when I did the isolator bolt a few months ago, the plenum wasn't that bad...

You can google a little for that replacement cover to find a way to modify the one currently installed to match the replacement design.

Oscar.

yeah.I had a 2001 before this and I did replace the valve cover but haven't on this 2002 because there was someway to see if it needed it or not ( can't remember for sure been three or four years ago...I think you look in it for that baffle and I think mine had it...well have to look at that again)....and I think they started to put the so called corrected cover on some vans and mine had it...I remember looking into that when I first got the van but need to look again to confirm....if anyone has any ideas or feedback about the oil /pvc issue would be glad to hear them....

I installed an oil separator into the PCV line on mine a while back when I originally removed the Upper Intake Manifold. It fills up about half way at about every 5,000 miles and I empty out with each oil change. Its a simple set up which you can purchase at Home Depot or Lowes hardware, or you can look on Ebay for this item as well. Good Luck.

I just came across that the other night regarding the 3.8 in a mustang that had the same problem and the guy installed that in his pvc.....does it interfere with the flow/suction...???? does it help keep things dryer in the intake and reduce carbon build up?? whats your experience???...and do you have any pictures??

Well, when I opened up the Plenum this time around there was not really any oil that I noticed, but there was carbon build-up on the Butterfly Valves and on the EGR Ports especially. I think the problem is not the oil but EGR clogging things up hense causing the pinging, maybe the updated DPFE will fix this problem. I will take a picture of the oil separator set-up I have so you can see it.

cool , look forward to the picture....I did replace the dpfe a while back........I had build up on my plugs that matched the pictures in hayes manuals showing ash on the plugs due to oil so Im am interested in the filter in pvc unless Im being too picky...the plugs were in for 3 years so I guess it wasn't to bad considering how long they were in....just worried about carbon buildup....does that make sense..???

The improved valve cover REDUCES the amount of oil droplets that are drawn out through the PCV valve.
It does NOT eliminate it.
I installed a catch can in the PCV line that also reduced the oil even more.....but I still had some drawn in.
In the winter.....I would get a LOT more fluid.....due to condensation.
I have a picture of my catch can settup in the pictures that the link in my signature part at the bottom takes you to.
I used a "Greddy" catch can.....and put long hoses in to be able to locate it up front, next to the washer fluid fill spout.
The idea was to give longer lines and have them slope DOWN to the catch can.....so that vapors would condense and run down to the catch can when the vehicle was shut down.
Over time, the hoses got soft and needed to be replaced because they were starting to collapse under vaccum.
No big deal......but ANY modification that you make needs to be monitored to make sure that it is holding up to the heat and oil exposure.


I DO recommend that you use a Genuine Motorcraft brand PCV valve.....some of the after market PCV valves are not very good.
The PCV valve is NOT just a check valve to permit flow in only 1 direction.
There is a spring in there and the plunger is tapered on the end.
Under high vaccum conditions (like at idle) the vaccum pulls the plunger against the spring and reduces the opening....restricting the flow (more air flows through a given opening with more vaccum....so reducing the opening size will offset this).
When you have low vaccum, like when you accellerate......the opening in the valve is bigger, so you still have PCV flow.

Sure, if you had no PCV flow.....the intake would be cleaner.....but you would certainly develop sludge in the crankcase......it is CRITICAL that the vapors be removed.
While I don't want to make it more (drawing more oil in), I certainly don't want to do something to reduce it from what FORD intended.

The new "isolator" bolts that the TSB for 1999 and newer Windstars had bushings that were made of a material that was much more resistant to breaking down due to exposure to oil.

As for cleaning out carbon that is already built up inside the cylinders.....there really is not much you can do outside of taking the engine apart.....not a small task at all.
Some have reported CAREFUL fine mist spray....the water droplets causing the carbon to come off in small spots.....but you have to be SUPER careful......too much water (and it does not take much) and you will hydrolock the engine (water does NOT compress......like air / gasoline VAPOR.)

Also....there is no cleaner that you can spray/draw into the intake....or put in the fuel that is going to do anything to clean clogged EGR ports........that requires that the upper intake manifold be removed so that you can physically clean them.

This is my set up.

Additional photos

thanks for the pictures.....am going to try this....wonder if I could go to the junk yard and get pvc tube and modify with filter/oil separator so rubber line won't collapse or go punky.......

I used to have pinging issues ever so often. I would lift the intake "upper" ... clear the EGR ports and the problem would go away for a while. Once or twice, it was due to the EGR control system ... the flow sensor bad or the sensing tubes plugged up. Ford finally improved the EGR flow sensor, and I glued the plastic intake "manifold" to the intake "spacer" ... leaving no path for oil to drip down on the ports ... and I haven't had pinging for some years now. (Those who have the later "upgraded" intake upper .... the upper with all parts welded together.... will not be able to make the modification that I made.)

does the oil seperator restrict the suction/vacuum any?? how about your catch can wiswind? and where did you get the can at? and does the oil seperator seem to be holding up ?

My catch can was not a home-made unit.....
I seem to remember looking it up on cardomain.
It is a Greddy brand......
After a number of years, you can expect to need to replace the vaccum hoses going to and from it as they will soften up over time from exposure to the oil vapors.
This is also true for the factory hoses from the PCV valve to the intake....as I had to replace those.
More vapor is collected in cold weather.....not so much in hot weather.
This is in spite of the long run that I put into the hoses.....to give more time for the vapor to cool down.
I located the catch can right next to the fill spout for the windshield washing fluid.

update ....oil separator is not working......any other suggestions??

Pushing 350k miles on my '99 3.8. No Berryman's. No Seafoam. No catch can. No pinging. ( I do like to add up to one ounce of fresh motor oil per gallon of gasoline at fill-ups, when I think of it.)

Yes, Ford could have done a better job of designing the return of crank case PCV "waste" back into the inlet air stream. Could have done a better job of keeping the returning waste oil in the form of a mist, instead of letting it gather into liquid droplets that can clog the EGR jets. But besides that fault, its a workable induction system. Just needs to have flawless inlet manifold tightness ..... and exact engine timing. Cam positioning timing and crank ignition timing ... as well as properly functioning fuel supply ... injectors. The cam postion sensor should be set using the proper gauge. The crank pos sensor is not adjustable, but if the harmonic balancer has slipped there will be problems. By using a feeler rod against the piston top (cyl #1) the timing marks on the crank pulley can be confirmed.

The inlet air filter must be well maintained to keep the crankcase supplied with fresh air.

Of course, if the engine is in poor repair ....too much piston by-pass, leaking valve stem seals and the like, old igniton cables, EGR not correct, etc ... then pinging may not be correctable. I like to reseat valves and replace valve stem seals at least by 200k miles or so. The injectors are bench-cleaned and lubricated at the same time. If this engine reaches 450k miles, and I'm still able, I will plan on tearing down engine again.

my windstar pings like a piece of junk due to oil fouling on the plugs due to fords poor pvc design,,,tried the oil separator that fits air compressor but seems a waste of time.....my windstar sucks a lot of oil in pvc....even with oil/water separator....any other suggestions....hows the greedy can seem to work?

there has to be a solution ...to have a dry pcv....and I know some of you guys are pretty smart to help me figure it out.....

how does ford deal with this...or justify this???? by the way could any other part from another car work...I have seen air oil separators built into other cars... could one be adapted to work on windstar?????