CEL codes, four at once....
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SuperDanny
10-19-2011, 07:49 PM
My 98 Suburban (251,000 miles) has been running bad the last couple of weeks and is throwing a CEL, and scanning it shows four codes:
P0420 (Bank 1 catalyst effciency), P0430 (bank 2 catalyst efficiency), P0135 (O2 sensor bank 1 sensor 1), and P0305 (cyliner #5 misfire).
Occasionally, the CEL will actually flash instead of staying on. I replaced both O2 sensors, pre-cat, as I knew at least one was probably original. Also ran a can of Seafoam thru the gas tank on Sunday and it ran a little better on the highway going to Raleigh. But Monday ran like crap again. I'm thinking two things: Injector clogged or malfunction AND/OR catalytic converters are toast. I found the universal Magnflows for close to $80 each. Also thinking about the CSFI to MFR conversion?
Any ideas on these symptoms? I've never seen a flashing CEL previously.
P0420 (Bank 1 catalyst effciency), P0430 (bank 2 catalyst efficiency), P0135 (O2 sensor bank 1 sensor 1), and P0305 (cyliner #5 misfire).
Occasionally, the CEL will actually flash instead of staying on. I replaced both O2 sensors, pre-cat, as I knew at least one was probably original. Also ran a can of Seafoam thru the gas tank on Sunday and it ran a little better on the highway going to Raleigh. But Monday ran like crap again. I'm thinking two things: Injector clogged or malfunction AND/OR catalytic converters are toast. I found the universal Magnflows for close to $80 each. Also thinking about the CSFI to MFR conversion?
Any ideas on these symptoms? I've never seen a flashing CEL previously.
j cAT
10-19-2011, 08:39 PM
My 98 Suburban (251,000 miles) has been running bad the last couple of weeks and is throwing a CEL, and scanning it shows four codes:
P0420 (Bank 1 catalyst effciency), P0430 (bank 2 catalyst efficiency), P0135 (O2 sensor bank 1 sensor 1), and P0305 (cyliner #5 misfire).
Occasionally, the CEL will actually flash instead of staying on. I replaced both O2 sensors, pre-cat, as I knew at least one was probably original. Also ran a can of Seafoam thru the gas tank on Sunday and it ran a little better on the highway going to Raleigh. But Monday ran like crap again. I'm thinking two things: Injector clogged or malfunction AND/OR catalytic converters are toast. I found the universal Magnflows for close to $80 each. Also thinking about the CSFI to MFR conversion?
Any ideas on these symptoms? I've never seen a flashing CEL previously.
the converters or exhaust may be restricted. the injectors may be dirty/worn causing excessive fuel to get to the converters.
plug wires should be checked for proper resistance. also check the fuel pressure with a guage 60-65psi,..you may have a coupe of problems.
the O2 sensors are good for 100,ooo miles usually 150,ooo if all hywy driving. going over this amount is looking for trouble and lower MPG/performance.
P0420 (Bank 1 catalyst effciency), P0430 (bank 2 catalyst efficiency), P0135 (O2 sensor bank 1 sensor 1), and P0305 (cyliner #5 misfire).
Occasionally, the CEL will actually flash instead of staying on. I replaced both O2 sensors, pre-cat, as I knew at least one was probably original. Also ran a can of Seafoam thru the gas tank on Sunday and it ran a little better on the highway going to Raleigh. But Monday ran like crap again. I'm thinking two things: Injector clogged or malfunction AND/OR catalytic converters are toast. I found the universal Magnflows for close to $80 each. Also thinking about the CSFI to MFR conversion?
Any ideas on these symptoms? I've never seen a flashing CEL previously.
the converters or exhaust may be restricted. the injectors may be dirty/worn causing excessive fuel to get to the converters.
plug wires should be checked for proper resistance. also check the fuel pressure with a guage 60-65psi,..you may have a coupe of problems.
the O2 sensors are good for 100,ooo miles usually 150,ooo if all hywy driving. going over this amount is looking for trouble and lower MPG/performance.
SuperDanny
10-19-2011, 09:23 PM
the converters or exhaust may be restricted. the injectors may be dirty/worn causing excessive fuel to get to the converters.
plug wires should be checked for proper resistance. also check the fuel pressure with a guage 60-65psi,..you may have a coupe of problems.
the O2 sensors are good for 100,ooo miles usually 150,ooo if all hywy driving. going over this amount is looking for trouble and lower MPG/performance.
Thanks for the quick reply. Plug wires, plugs, rotor, and cap were new in August, 2010. New fuel pump this past March (AC Delco). I just replaced the pre-cat O2 sensors, both of them. So the P0135 code would likely have gone away. I'm guessing all of this may be due to a poppet malfunction on the CSFI injector system, but the OBDII on these Vortec motors really can't get that far into diagnosis like the OBDII on an MFI car. Pre-cat O2's are the important ones that actually feed back into the PCM, to set air to fuel, etc. The post-cat O2's are just the monitoring ones, that tell you what sort of crap you might be putting into the atmosphere.
Thinking it may be high time to replace the old CSFI injectors with the MFI system. Amazon has the Ac-Delco one (217-3029) for $285 or the Delphi (FJ10566). Both come with the bracket and fuel o-rings. I think the Delco one may even come with some gaskets (e.g. upper intake and another??)
plug wires should be checked for proper resistance. also check the fuel pressure with a guage 60-65psi,..you may have a coupe of problems.
the O2 sensors are good for 100,ooo miles usually 150,ooo if all hywy driving. going over this amount is looking for trouble and lower MPG/performance.
Thanks for the quick reply. Plug wires, plugs, rotor, and cap were new in August, 2010. New fuel pump this past March (AC Delco). I just replaced the pre-cat O2 sensors, both of them. So the P0135 code would likely have gone away. I'm guessing all of this may be due to a poppet malfunction on the CSFI injector system, but the OBDII on these Vortec motors really can't get that far into diagnosis like the OBDII on an MFI car. Pre-cat O2's are the important ones that actually feed back into the PCM, to set air to fuel, etc. The post-cat O2's are just the monitoring ones, that tell you what sort of crap you might be putting into the atmosphere.
Thinking it may be high time to replace the old CSFI injectors with the MFI system. Amazon has the Ac-Delco one (217-3029) for $285 or the Delphi (FJ10566). Both come with the bracket and fuel o-rings. I think the Delco one may even come with some gaskets (e.g. upper intake and another??)
j cAT
10-20-2011, 07:05 AM
Thanks for the quick reply. Plug wires, plugs, rotor, and cap were new in August, 2010. New fuel pump this past March (AC Delco). I just replaced the pre-cat O2 sensors, both of them. So the P0135 code would likely have gone away. I'm guessing all of this may be due to a poppet malfunction on the CSFI injector system, but the OBDII on these Vortec motors really can't get that far into diagnosis like the OBDII on an MFI car. Pre-cat O2's are the important ones that actually feed back into the PCM, to set air to fuel, etc. The post-cat O2's are just the monitoring ones, that tell you what sort of crap you might be putting into the atmosphere.
Thinking it may be high time to replace the old CSFI injectors with the MFI system. Amazon has the Ac-Delco one (217-3029) for $285 or the Delphi (FJ10566). Both come with the bracket and fuel o-rings. I think the Delco one may even come with some gaskets (e.g. upper intake and another??)
with a fuel pressure guage you can determine if the injectors are leaking down. also checking the fuel regulator.
miss fires can be from low fuel pressures and restricted cat . since it comes and goes It can be fuel pressures low as the fuel pumps do fail sometimes with good pressure then drop down when they get hot or the fuel level drops.
first find the cause of the cat failure . it could be the old O2 sensors caused this. the upstreams sensors are most important. the downstream which monitor the cat performance are now too old . I doubt the are reporting whats actually occuring with the cats.
Thinking it may be high time to replace the old CSFI injectors with the MFI system. Amazon has the Ac-Delco one (217-3029) for $285 or the Delphi (FJ10566). Both come with the bracket and fuel o-rings. I think the Delco one may even come with some gaskets (e.g. upper intake and another??)
with a fuel pressure guage you can determine if the injectors are leaking down. also checking the fuel regulator.
miss fires can be from low fuel pressures and restricted cat . since it comes and goes It can be fuel pressures low as the fuel pumps do fail sometimes with good pressure then drop down when they get hot or the fuel level drops.
first find the cause of the cat failure . it could be the old O2 sensors caused this. the upstreams sensors are most important. the downstream which monitor the cat performance are now too old . I doubt the are reporting whats actually occuring with the cats.
SuperDanny
10-20-2011, 07:58 AM
with a fuel pressure guage you can determine if the injectors are leaking down. also checking the fuel regulator.
miss fires can be from low fuel pressures and restricted cat . since it comes and goes It can be fuel pressures low as the fuel pumps do fail sometimes with good pressure then drop down when they get hot or the fuel level drops.
first find the cause of the cat failure . it could be the old O2 sensors caused this. the upstreams sensors are most important. the downstream which monitor the cat performance are now too old . I doubt the are reporting whats actually occuring with the cats.
Thanks again J Cat,
Yeah, i have a fuel pressure gauge and that's exactly why i had to change out the fuel pump this Spring - low FP pressure. Truck would not even start. Was only getting about 40-45psi, and that's barely enough to push the poppets open on the CSFI system. At that time, the regulator tested good, since the best way to test it out is to pinch off the return fuel hose and see if pressure climbs. It did not, so I ruled out the regulator back then. I put the new pump on and all was well (for a while). So, both upstream O2's are new, just replaced early this week. Truck ran well on the Interstate for a while, with the Seafoam in the tank, but the next morning, ran like crap again. So you're thinking my downstream O2's might just be bad and I might not really have anything wrong with the Cats? I had thought back in the Summer when i was occasionally seeing this problem, that my coil was bad, but although it is original, it spec'd out fine, per the service manual tests.
miss fires can be from low fuel pressures and restricted cat . since it comes and goes It can be fuel pressures low as the fuel pumps do fail sometimes with good pressure then drop down when they get hot or the fuel level drops.
first find the cause of the cat failure . it could be the old O2 sensors caused this. the upstreams sensors are most important. the downstream which monitor the cat performance are now too old . I doubt the are reporting whats actually occuring with the cats.
Thanks again J Cat,
Yeah, i have a fuel pressure gauge and that's exactly why i had to change out the fuel pump this Spring - low FP pressure. Truck would not even start. Was only getting about 40-45psi, and that's barely enough to push the poppets open on the CSFI system. At that time, the regulator tested good, since the best way to test it out is to pinch off the return fuel hose and see if pressure climbs. It did not, so I ruled out the regulator back then. I put the new pump on and all was well (for a while). So, both upstream O2's are new, just replaced early this week. Truck ran well on the Interstate for a while, with the Seafoam in the tank, but the next morning, ran like crap again. So you're thinking my downstream O2's might just be bad and I might not really have anything wrong with the Cats? I had thought back in the Summer when i was occasionally seeing this problem, that my coil was bad, but although it is original, it spec'd out fine, per the service manual tests.
Tech II
10-20-2011, 09:51 AM
If your CE light is flashing, it means your vehicle is misfiring, and if you continue to drive like this, you just create more problems.....
You have high mileage......how many times have the cats been changed?
The cat efficiency codes don't necessarily mean the post O2 sensors are bad...you have to look at the wave forms and compare them to the pre O2's, to determine if they or the cats are bad....
You have high mileage......how many times have the cats been changed?
The cat efficiency codes don't necessarily mean the post O2 sensors are bad...you have to look at the wave forms and compare them to the pre O2's, to determine if they or the cats are bad....
SuperDanny
10-20-2011, 10:20 AM
If your CE light is flashing, it means your vehicle is misfiring, and if you continue to drive like this, you just create more problems.....
You have high mileage......how many times have the cats been changed?
The cat efficiency codes don't necessarily mean the post O2 sensors are bad...you have to look at the wave forms and compare them to the pre O2's, to determine if they or the cats are bad....
Cats have never been changed, far as I know (I've only owned truck since 2007). I use TTS' DataMaster Software for engine PCM diagnostics (and TunerCat to flash PCM), but clearly, it's just for OBDI cars and won't work for the OBDII systems. So really, my only diagnostic is the simple Actron tool, which just gives actual code. I don't think a $65 per cat would be bad to pay, for new cats. Magnaflow 99004HM.
You have high mileage......how many times have the cats been changed?
The cat efficiency codes don't necessarily mean the post O2 sensors are bad...you have to look at the wave forms and compare them to the pre O2's, to determine if they or the cats are bad....
Cats have never been changed, far as I know (I've only owned truck since 2007). I use TTS' DataMaster Software for engine PCM diagnostics (and TunerCat to flash PCM), but clearly, it's just for OBDI cars and won't work for the OBDII systems. So really, my only diagnostic is the simple Actron tool, which just gives actual code. I don't think a $65 per cat would be bad to pay, for new cats. Magnaflow 99004HM.
j cAT
10-20-2011, 05:25 PM
Thanks again J Cat,
Yeah, i have a fuel pressure gauge and that's exactly why i had to change out the fuel pump this Spring - low FP pressure. Truck would not even start. Was only getting about 40-45psi, and that's barely enough to push the poppets open on the CSFI system. At that time, the regulator tested good, since the best way to test it out is to pinch off the return fuel hose and see if pressure climbs. It did not, so I ruled out the regulator back then. I put the new pump on and all was well (for a while). So, both upstream O2's are new, just replaced early this week. Truck ran well on the Interstate for a while, with the Seafoam in the tank, but the next morning, ran like crap again. So you're thinking my downstream O2's might just be bad and I might not really have anything wrong with the Cats? I had thought back in the Summer when i was occasionally seeing this problem, that my coil was bad, but although it is original, it spec'd out fine, per the service manual tests.
when the vehicles acts up throw on the fuel pressure guage.
most find delphi replacement pumps work best. airtex fuel pumps rapidly fail. If you have an airtex pump that would explain some of these issues.
the distributor bearing should be checked with the miss fires.170-225,ooomi these usually get worn to the point of creating the miss fire.
If the down stream are original I would replace. too many miles on them.
If I had a O2 sensor code , I swap sensors then see if the code changes.
these sensors most times slowly stop working correctly. with an expensive diagnostic machine you can see the waveforms then you know for sure if they are working correctly.
Yeah, i have a fuel pressure gauge and that's exactly why i had to change out the fuel pump this Spring - low FP pressure. Truck would not even start. Was only getting about 40-45psi, and that's barely enough to push the poppets open on the CSFI system. At that time, the regulator tested good, since the best way to test it out is to pinch off the return fuel hose and see if pressure climbs. It did not, so I ruled out the regulator back then. I put the new pump on and all was well (for a while). So, both upstream O2's are new, just replaced early this week. Truck ran well on the Interstate for a while, with the Seafoam in the tank, but the next morning, ran like crap again. So you're thinking my downstream O2's might just be bad and I might not really have anything wrong with the Cats? I had thought back in the Summer when i was occasionally seeing this problem, that my coil was bad, but although it is original, it spec'd out fine, per the service manual tests.
when the vehicles acts up throw on the fuel pressure guage.
most find delphi replacement pumps work best. airtex fuel pumps rapidly fail. If you have an airtex pump that would explain some of these issues.
the distributor bearing should be checked with the miss fires.170-225,ooomi these usually get worn to the point of creating the miss fire.
If the down stream are original I would replace. too many miles on them.
If I had a O2 sensor code , I swap sensors then see if the code changes.
these sensors most times slowly stop working correctly. with an expensive diagnostic machine you can see the waveforms then you know for sure if they are working correctly.
SuperDanny
10-20-2011, 07:17 PM
when the vehicles acts up throw on the fuel pressure guage.
most find delphi replacement pumps work best. airtex fuel pumps rapidly fail. If you have an airtex pump that would explain some of these issues.
the distributor bearing should be checked with the miss fires.170-225,ooomi these usually get worn to the point of creating the miss fire.
If the down stream are original I would replace. too many miles on them.
If I had a O2 sensor code , I swap sensors then see if the code changes.
these sensors most times slowly stop working correctly. with an expensive diagnostic machine you can see the waveforms then you know for sure if they are working correctly.
Thanks...Again, for the good advice here. Yeah, I know about the Airtex fuel pumps. That's why i put the AC Delco fuel pump on the Suburban. Many of the fuel related Delco parts are Delphi (even though Delphi is now independent). Doesnt work that way on everything, but many of the sending units and pumps. I checked the distributor gear (I think you meant that and not the bearing?) when I changed over my lower intake gasket and oil pressure sender last July. The gear actually looked good when I had the distributor out. I was prepared to change it, but it looked good.
I thought when the gear goes, you lose all timing, etc. and don't show misfire, because the timing jumps a tooth or two.
On your suggestion to switch out downstream O2's, BOTH are throwing codes, so really, switching may not do any good. I could replace 'em though. Just more $$.
most find delphi replacement pumps work best. airtex fuel pumps rapidly fail. If you have an airtex pump that would explain some of these issues.
the distributor bearing should be checked with the miss fires.170-225,ooomi these usually get worn to the point of creating the miss fire.
If the down stream are original I would replace. too many miles on them.
If I had a O2 sensor code , I swap sensors then see if the code changes.
these sensors most times slowly stop working correctly. with an expensive diagnostic machine you can see the waveforms then you know for sure if they are working correctly.
Thanks...Again, for the good advice here. Yeah, I know about the Airtex fuel pumps. That's why i put the AC Delco fuel pump on the Suburban. Many of the fuel related Delco parts are Delphi (even though Delphi is now independent). Doesnt work that way on everything, but many of the sending units and pumps. I checked the distributor gear (I think you meant that and not the bearing?) when I changed over my lower intake gasket and oil pressure sender last July. The gear actually looked good when I had the distributor out. I was prepared to change it, but it looked good.
I thought when the gear goes, you lose all timing, etc. and don't show misfire, because the timing jumps a tooth or two.
On your suggestion to switch out downstream O2's, BOTH are throwing codes, so really, switching may not do any good. I could replace 'em though. Just more $$.
j cAT
10-21-2011, 06:12 PM
the distributor cam gear can be worn with that many miles. since you looked at it not that long ago that should not have worn.
I was refering to the distributor bearing. these will cause the rotor to wobble at times when first failing giving missfires.
If you swap the O2 sensors see if the codes change or stay the same this will tell you if the O2 sensors are bad. over 150,ooo mi on a O2 is too long of use. manufactures say 100,ooomi. .
I was refering to the distributor bearing. these will cause the rotor to wobble at times when first failing giving missfires.
If you swap the O2 sensors see if the codes change or stay the same this will tell you if the O2 sensors are bad. over 150,ooo mi on a O2 is too long of use. manufactures say 100,ooomi. .
SuperDanny
10-26-2011, 05:36 AM
New development. No more codes for cats! All are gone, perhaps the Seafoam helped out. But the bad news: CEL still flashing and now is throwing a P0300 code, which is now a random misfire code instead of a specific cylinder like before.
j cAT
10-26-2011, 08:22 AM
New development. No more codes for cats! All are gone, perhaps the Seafoam helped out. But the bad news: CEL still flashing and now is throwing a P0300 code, which is now a random misfire code instead of a specific cylinder like before.
random miss fire I would check for proper fuel pressures.
also the distributor components, bearing etc.
random miss fire I would check for proper fuel pressures.
also the distributor components, bearing etc.
SuperDanny
11-06-2011, 10:22 PM
Updates: I just went to Boone, NC to check on the truck (it is my daughter's and I rarely get to look it over for long):
1. Fuel pressure tested fine. 58-60psi steady
2. Ignition coil tested fine.
3. Friday evening, the truck just quit - I believe my daughter ran it out of gas, but she got it started back up, after putting more gas in it. (This is unrelated to problem).
A couple more things - my daughter said she noticed a 'pop' when starting up the truck. Wondering if that is a clogged fuel injector poppet trying to open? I also noticed a smell of raw fuel at the exhaust. Thinking one or more of the injectors on the old CSFL system has totally crapped out. Isn't it true that if injectors are the problem, there will be random and multiple misfires? Thinking I need to get the Delphi FJ10566 or Delco 217-3029....to convert the CSFI to MFI?
1. Fuel pressure tested fine. 58-60psi steady
2. Ignition coil tested fine.
3. Friday evening, the truck just quit - I believe my daughter ran it out of gas, but she got it started back up, after putting more gas in it. (This is unrelated to problem).
A couple more things - my daughter said she noticed a 'pop' when starting up the truck. Wondering if that is a clogged fuel injector poppet trying to open? I also noticed a smell of raw fuel at the exhaust. Thinking one or more of the injectors on the old CSFL system has totally crapped out. Isn't it true that if injectors are the problem, there will be random and multiple misfires? Thinking I need to get the Delphi FJ10566 or Delco 217-3029....to convert the CSFI to MFI?
j cAT
11-07-2011, 07:32 AM
Updates: I just went to Boone, NC to check on the truck (it is my daughter's and I rarely get to look it over for long):
1. Fuel pressure tested fine. 58-60psi steady
2. Ignition coil tested fine.
3. Friday evening, the truck just quit - I believe my daughter ran it out of gas, but she got it started back up, after putting more gas in it. (This is unrelated to problem).
A couple more things - my daughter said she noticed a 'pop' when starting up the truck. Wondering if that is a clogged fuel injector poppet trying to open? I also noticed a smell of raw fuel at the exhaust. Thinking one or more of the injectors on the old CSFL system has totally crapped out. Isn't it true that if injectors are the problem, there will be random and multiple misfires? Thinking I need to get the Delphi FJ10566 or Delco 217-3029....to convert the CSFI to MFI?
If your daughter operates this vehicle with little or NO fuel in the tank the fuel system gets destroyed.
fuel pump overheats, injectors get damaged with water[condesation] creating a growing mass of contaminates generated by the water. the fuel level must be at all times above the 1/4 mark...
during certain times of the year with large temp swings day/night water rapidly accumulates in a fuel tank with little fuel.
back fire on cold start good chance lots of contaminated fuel..................
1. Fuel pressure tested fine. 58-60psi steady
2. Ignition coil tested fine.
3. Friday evening, the truck just quit - I believe my daughter ran it out of gas, but she got it started back up, after putting more gas in it. (This is unrelated to problem).
A couple more things - my daughter said she noticed a 'pop' when starting up the truck. Wondering if that is a clogged fuel injector poppet trying to open? I also noticed a smell of raw fuel at the exhaust. Thinking one or more of the injectors on the old CSFL system has totally crapped out. Isn't it true that if injectors are the problem, there will be random and multiple misfires? Thinking I need to get the Delphi FJ10566 or Delco 217-3029....to convert the CSFI to MFI?
If your daughter operates this vehicle with little or NO fuel in the tank the fuel system gets destroyed.
fuel pump overheats, injectors get damaged with water[condesation] creating a growing mass of contaminates generated by the water. the fuel level must be at all times above the 1/4 mark...
during certain times of the year with large temp swings day/night water rapidly accumulates in a fuel tank with little fuel.
back fire on cold start good chance lots of contaminated fuel..................
SuperDanny
11-07-2011, 07:47 AM
If your daughter operates this vehicle with little or NO fuel in the tank the fuel system gets destroyed.
fuel pump overheats, injectors get damaged with water[condesation] creating a growing mass of contaminates generated by the water. the fuel level must be at all times above the 1/4 mark...
during certain times of the year with large temp swings day/night water rapidly accumulates in a fuel tank with little fuel.
back fire on cold start good chance lots of contaminated fuel..................
Actually, she has never let the truck run out of gas until Friday. I agree on the FP overheat. the fuel, believe it or not, is what keeps the FP running cooler. The sound she's hearing is definitely not a backfire. I ran another bottle of the Chevron/Techron fuel system cleaner in the truck, but it didn't seem to help this time, like the Seafoam did a few weeks back. This misfire thing, however, I can't really blame on low fuel level and water. When she was home over the Summer and this problem was just starting to surface, fuel level was fine. It actually started happening during her Spring semester of 2011, back in January. But it was erratic and wasn't constant. It has now grown consistently bad. so much so that misfire codes are thrown.
fuel pump overheats, injectors get damaged with water[condesation] creating a growing mass of contaminates generated by the water. the fuel level must be at all times above the 1/4 mark...
during certain times of the year with large temp swings day/night water rapidly accumulates in a fuel tank with little fuel.
back fire on cold start good chance lots of contaminated fuel..................
Actually, she has never let the truck run out of gas until Friday. I agree on the FP overheat. the fuel, believe it or not, is what keeps the FP running cooler. The sound she's hearing is definitely not a backfire. I ran another bottle of the Chevron/Techron fuel system cleaner in the truck, but it didn't seem to help this time, like the Seafoam did a few weeks back. This misfire thing, however, I can't really blame on low fuel level and water. When she was home over the Summer and this problem was just starting to surface, fuel level was fine. It actually started happening during her Spring semester of 2011, back in January. But it was erratic and wasn't constant. It has now grown consistently bad. so much so that misfire codes are thrown.
j cAT
11-07-2011, 07:52 AM
you own a 1995 impala ? I see you have the 6sp manual transmission kit installed.
how do you like it ? any issues with the manual kit componenets or install issues ?
I have the 1996 impala
sept1995 to present. 68,ooomi
how do you like it ? any issues with the manual kit componenets or install issues ?
I have the 1996 impala
sept1995 to present. 68,ooomi
SuperDanny
11-07-2011, 08:05 AM
you own a 1995 impala ? I see you have the 6sp manual transmission kit installed.
how do you like it ? any issues with the manual kit componenets or install issues ?
I have the 1996 impala
sept1995 to present. 68,ooomi
I like it a lot. I did the install myself. A guy on ImpalaSSforum.com, named Josh, used to sell complete B-body clutch/conversion kits. He sold roughly ~120 of these and then went out of business. It was nice in that it was an entire clutch bracket mounted INSIDE your car. The clutch master is inside as well. the reservoir is outside the car, right beside brake booster. The only issue with it is that since the clutch master is inside the car and reservoir is outside, you have to break open the line. The way I did it was to cut a hole in my tunnel big enough to run the slave cylinder thru. I've had the setup since about 2003. Have replaced the slave/master/reservoir setup (comes as a complete assembly from GM) once since I owned it. Now days, folks do the F-body conversion. But you have to buy a lot of stuff that wasn't spec'd for our cars and also have to cut up the firewall. There are good writeups on the ImpalaSSforum on how to do it with the F-body parts. My T56 is from a 97 TransAm donor. Shifter is short throw Hurst. Nice thing about the B-Body Performance kit (sold by Josh) is the short throw clutch and it came with the center console for 94 and 95 cars. for yours, you are one step ahead, since you have the 96 and also don't have the column shift. Gets outta the hole fast!!
1996 is nice. Only drawback is the OBD-II. If I had a 96, I would convert it to an OBD-I if I could get away with it, emission wise. OBD-I is so easy to program. OBD-II is a different story.
how do you like it ? any issues with the manual kit componenets or install issues ?
I have the 1996 impala
sept1995 to present. 68,ooomi
I like it a lot. I did the install myself. A guy on ImpalaSSforum.com, named Josh, used to sell complete B-body clutch/conversion kits. He sold roughly ~120 of these and then went out of business. It was nice in that it was an entire clutch bracket mounted INSIDE your car. The clutch master is inside as well. the reservoir is outside the car, right beside brake booster. The only issue with it is that since the clutch master is inside the car and reservoir is outside, you have to break open the line. The way I did it was to cut a hole in my tunnel big enough to run the slave cylinder thru. I've had the setup since about 2003. Have replaced the slave/master/reservoir setup (comes as a complete assembly from GM) once since I owned it. Now days, folks do the F-body conversion. But you have to buy a lot of stuff that wasn't spec'd for our cars and also have to cut up the firewall. There are good writeups on the ImpalaSSforum on how to do it with the F-body parts. My T56 is from a 97 TransAm donor. Shifter is short throw Hurst. Nice thing about the B-Body Performance kit (sold by Josh) is the short throw clutch and it came with the center console for 94 and 95 cars. for yours, you are one step ahead, since you have the 96 and also don't have the column shift. Gets outta the hole fast!!
1996 is nice. Only drawback is the OBD-II. If I had a 96, I would convert it to an OBD-I if I could get away with it, emission wise. OBD-I is so easy to program. OBD-II is a different story.
j cAT
11-07-2011, 08:14 AM
I like it a lot. I did the install myself. A guy on ImpalaSSforum.com, named Josh, used to sell complete B-body clutch/conversion kits. He sold roughly ~120 of these and then went out of business. It was nice in that it was an entire clutch bracket mounted INSIDE your car. The clutch master is inside as well. the reservoir is outside the car, right beside brake booster. The only issue with it is that since the clutch master is inside the car and reservoir is outside, you have to break open the line. The way I did it was to cut a hole in my tunnel big enough to run the slave cylinder thru. I've had the setup since about 2003. Have replaced the slave/master/reservoir setup (comes as a complete assembly from GM) once since I owned it. Now days, folks do the F-body conversion. But you have to buy a lot of stuff that wasn't spec'd for our cars and also have to cut up the firewall. There are good writeups on the ImpalaSSforum on how to do it with the F-body parts. My T56 is from a 97 TransAm donor. Shifter is short throw Hurst. Nice thing about the B-Body Performance kit (sold by Josh) is the short throw clutch and it came with the center console for 94 and 95 cars. for yours, you are one step ahead, since you have the 96 and also don't have the column shift. Gets outta the hole fast!!
1996 is nice. Only drawback is the OBD-II. If I had a 96, I would convert it to an OBD-I if I could get away with it, emission wise. OBD-I is so easy to program. OBD-II is a different story.
thanks for all that info. ya obd II is a problem ..
with some of this conversion the 96 is easier to convert , then the issues with the OBD II programing ...to correct ..
1996 is nice. Only drawback is the OBD-II. If I had a 96, I would convert it to an OBD-I if I could get away with it, emission wise. OBD-I is so easy to program. OBD-II is a different story.
thanks for all that info. ya obd II is a problem ..
with some of this conversion the 96 is easier to convert , then the issues with the OBD II programing ...to correct ..
SuperDanny
11-07-2011, 09:29 AM
thanks for all that info. ya obd II is a problem ..
with some of this conversion the 96 is easier to convert , then the issues with the OBD II programing ...to correct ..
I use the TTS DataMaster program to put in custom programs to my 95. I don't trust myself on the more complex things, but things like shutting down the Auto Tranny line pressure sensor, etc. that's easy. Also, my 95 LT4 motor doesn't have an EGR, didn't come with one from factory, so was easy to tell my computer not to look for a signal from the EGR solenoid. The AIR pump was also easy to program out, although I made the open loop mixture (Air to Fuel) a little bit leaner so as not to kill the cats on start up.
On my daughter's truck, I really don't think its the gas, although I agree with you that running low all of the time isn't good. This had been going on for almost a year but not nearly as bad. Previously, I could run some fuel cleaner in the tank and it would improve, for a while. Interestingly, 3-4 weeks ago when I ran that Seafoam in her truck and changed out the pre-cat O2's, it ran better on the Interstate but then when she got back to Boone, started running bad again. Now, no improvement at all when I ran the Techron stuff in there couple days ago. I really think that CSFI setup is the culprit. I'm smelling some unburned gas in the exhaust, which clued me in that there might be some unburned gas in the upper intake where the injectors sit.
with some of this conversion the 96 is easier to convert , then the issues with the OBD II programing ...to correct ..
I use the TTS DataMaster program to put in custom programs to my 95. I don't trust myself on the more complex things, but things like shutting down the Auto Tranny line pressure sensor, etc. that's easy. Also, my 95 LT4 motor doesn't have an EGR, didn't come with one from factory, so was easy to tell my computer not to look for a signal from the EGR solenoid. The AIR pump was also easy to program out, although I made the open loop mixture (Air to Fuel) a little bit leaner so as not to kill the cats on start up.
On my daughter's truck, I really don't think its the gas, although I agree with you that running low all of the time isn't good. This had been going on for almost a year but not nearly as bad. Previously, I could run some fuel cleaner in the tank and it would improve, for a while. Interestingly, 3-4 weeks ago when I ran that Seafoam in her truck and changed out the pre-cat O2's, it ran better on the Interstate but then when she got back to Boone, started running bad again. Now, no improvement at all when I ran the Techron stuff in there couple days ago. I really think that CSFI setup is the culprit. I'm smelling some unburned gas in the exhaust, which clued me in that there might be some unburned gas in the upper intake where the injectors sit.
j cAT
11-07-2011, 01:05 PM
I use the TTS DataMaster program to put in custom programs to my 95. I don't trust myself on the more complex things, but things like shutting down the Auto Tranny line pressure sensor, etc. that's easy. Also, my 95 LT4 motor doesn't have an EGR, didn't come with one from factory, so was easy to tell my computer not to look for a signal from the EGR solenoid. The AIR pump was also easy to program out, although I made the open loop mixture (Air to Fuel) a little bit leaner so as not to kill the cats on start up.
On my daughter's truck, I really don't think its the gas, although I agree with you that running low all of the time isn't good. This had been going on for almost a year but not nearly as bad. Previously, I could run some fuel cleaner in the tank and it would improve, for a while. Interestingly, 3-4 weeks ago when I ran that Seafoam in her truck and changed out the pre-cat O2's, it ran better on the Interstate but then when she got back to Boone, started running bad again. Now, no improvement at all when I ran the Techron stuff in there couple days ago. I really think that CSFI setup is the culprit. I'm smelling some unburned gas in the exhaust, which clued me in that there might be some unburned gas in the upper intake where the injectors sit.
see if the fuel pressure holds with the key on engine off. if it drops then the injectors may indeed be dirty worn leaking.
On my daughter's truck, I really don't think its the gas, although I agree with you that running low all of the time isn't good. This had been going on for almost a year but not nearly as bad. Previously, I could run some fuel cleaner in the tank and it would improve, for a while. Interestingly, 3-4 weeks ago when I ran that Seafoam in her truck and changed out the pre-cat O2's, it ran better on the Interstate but then when she got back to Boone, started running bad again. Now, no improvement at all when I ran the Techron stuff in there couple days ago. I really think that CSFI setup is the culprit. I'm smelling some unburned gas in the exhaust, which clued me in that there might be some unburned gas in the upper intake where the injectors sit.
see if the fuel pressure holds with the key on engine off. if it drops then the injectors may indeed be dirty worn leaking.
SuperDanny
11-07-2011, 03:08 PM
see if the fuel pressure holds with the key on engine off. if it drops then the injectors may indeed be dirty worn leaking.
Darn, I knew I should've tried that! Will have to wait until November 21st week.
Darn, I knew I should've tried that! Will have to wait until November 21st week.
SuperDanny
11-28-2011, 09:42 AM
see if the fuel pressure holds with the key on engine off. if it drops then the injectors may indeed be dirty worn leaking.
I finally made it over the see my daughter over the holidays. The fuel pressure holds steady at about 58psi while engine running. when we shut it down, it does hold firm at 58 psi for at least several minutes, maybe 10-15.
I hooked up the motor to a vacuum gauge and notice that I'm only getting about 17 mm Hg at idle (barely in the 'green' or good area). Most engines I've had hold in nice at around 19-21mm, if valve seals and rings are in decent shape. Didn't see any loose/broken vacuum lines. There's not that many on these trucks any way.
I finally made it over the see my daughter over the holidays. The fuel pressure holds steady at about 58psi while engine running. when we shut it down, it does hold firm at 58 psi for at least several minutes, maybe 10-15.
I hooked up the motor to a vacuum gauge and notice that I'm only getting about 17 mm Hg at idle (barely in the 'green' or good area). Most engines I've had hold in nice at around 19-21mm, if valve seals and rings are in decent shape. Didn't see any loose/broken vacuum lines. There's not that many on these trucks any way.
j cAT
11-28-2011, 04:32 PM
I finally made it over the see my daughter over the holidays. The fuel pressure holds steady at about 58psi while engine running. when we shut it down, it does hold firm at 58 psi for at least several minutes, maybe 10-15.
I hooked up the motor to a vacuum gauge and notice that I'm only getting about 17 mm Hg at idle (barely in the 'green' or good area). Most engines I've had hold in nice at around 19-21mm, if valve seals and rings are in decent shape. Didn't see any loose/broken vacuum lines. There's not that many on these trucks any way.
with the fuel pressure good thats done . now to the cat converters.
with the vac guage hooked up rev engine to 2000RPM does the vac drop and stay low ? If so the converters or muffler is restricted. some times the converter pieces get into the muffler..
repeat test with pre cat O2 sensors removed hole open see if the vac goes high to 17-21 inches ..go for test run see if the vehicle has more power..
I hooked up the motor to a vacuum gauge and notice that I'm only getting about 17 mm Hg at idle (barely in the 'green' or good area). Most engines I've had hold in nice at around 19-21mm, if valve seals and rings are in decent shape. Didn't see any loose/broken vacuum lines. There's not that many on these trucks any way.
with the fuel pressure good thats done . now to the cat converters.
with the vac guage hooked up rev engine to 2000RPM does the vac drop and stay low ? If so the converters or muffler is restricted. some times the converter pieces get into the muffler..
repeat test with pre cat O2 sensors removed hole open see if the vac goes high to 17-21 inches ..go for test run see if the vehicle has more power..
SuperDanny
11-29-2011, 07:13 AM
with the fuel pressure good thats done . now to the cat converters.
with the vac guage hooked up rev engine to 2000RPM does the vac drop and stay low ? If so the converters or muffler is restricted. some times the converter pieces get into the muffler..
repeat test with pre cat O2 sensors removed hole open see if the vac goes high to 17-21 inches ..go for test run see if the vehicle has more power..
Darn (again)! I left already, from my daughter's place (240 miles away). But I did notice when my son gave the truck some throttle, the vacuum jumped way down. More than is normal. We didn't maintain high idle though so not sure if it stayed there. Can plugged converters really cause these issues?? Wouldn't the O2 sensors after the converters pick up the fact that the cats are plugged?
with the vac guage hooked up rev engine to 2000RPM does the vac drop and stay low ? If so the converters or muffler is restricted. some times the converter pieces get into the muffler..
repeat test with pre cat O2 sensors removed hole open see if the vac goes high to 17-21 inches ..go for test run see if the vehicle has more power..
Darn (again)! I left already, from my daughter's place (240 miles away). But I did notice when my son gave the truck some throttle, the vacuum jumped way down. More than is normal. We didn't maintain high idle though so not sure if it stayed there. Can plugged converters really cause these issues?? Wouldn't the O2 sensors after the converters pick up the fact that the cats are plugged?
j cAT
11-29-2011, 08:06 AM
Darn (again)! I left already, from my daughter's place (240 miles away). But I did notice when my son gave the truck some throttle, the vacuum jumped way down. More than is normal. We didn't maintain high idle though so not sure if it stayed there. Can plugged converters really cause these issues?? Wouldn't the O2 sensors after the converters pick up the fact that the cats are plugged?
the engine is a pump. if the exhaust is restricted it can not suck on the intake. this acts like the engine has low compression. this would also stress out the head gaskets and other things.
DTC that indicate low cat converter preformance sometimes shows up.
removal of the upstream O2 sensors , holes open then test it . if the issue goes away the exhaust will need be removed inspected. like I stated before sometimes the converter internals get into the muffler...
your post #1 P0420 (Bank 1 catalyst effciency), P0430 (bank 2 catalyst efficiency),
the engine is a pump. if the exhaust is restricted it can not suck on the intake. this acts like the engine has low compression. this would also stress out the head gaskets and other things.
DTC that indicate low cat converter preformance sometimes shows up.
removal of the upstream O2 sensors , holes open then test it . if the issue goes away the exhaust will need be removed inspected. like I stated before sometimes the converter internals get into the muffler...
your post #1 P0420 (Bank 1 catalyst effciency), P0430 (bank 2 catalyst efficiency),
SuperDanny
11-29-2011, 08:31 AM
the engine is a pump. if the exhaust is restricted it can not suck on the intake. this acts like the engine has low compression. this would also stress out the head gaskets and other things.
DTC that indicate low cat converter preformance sometimes shows up.
removal of the upstream O2 sensors , holes open then test it . if the issue goes away the exhaust will need be removed inspected. like I stated before sometimes the converter internals get into the muffler...
your post #1 P0420 (Bank 1 catalyst effciency), P0430 (bank 2 catalyst efficiency),
yeah, and damn it, i have been noticing some oil leak on left side/lower of engine. Might be the head gasket!
DTC that indicate low cat converter preformance sometimes shows up.
removal of the upstream O2 sensors , holes open then test it . if the issue goes away the exhaust will need be removed inspected. like I stated before sometimes the converter internals get into the muffler...
your post #1 P0420 (Bank 1 catalyst effciency), P0430 (bank 2 catalyst efficiency),
yeah, and damn it, i have been noticing some oil leak on left side/lower of engine. Might be the head gasket!
j cAT
11-29-2011, 04:48 PM
yeah, and damn it, i have been noticing some oil leak on left side/lower of engine. Might be the head gasket!
with the age/mileage on this engine even with the correct maintenance oil leaks are expected. small leaks are normal anyway.
the converters if original I would expect with those codes to be shot. test them first.. post back how it went.
with the age/mileage on this engine even with the correct maintenance oil leaks are expected. small leaks are normal anyway.
the converters if original I would expect with those codes to be shot. test them first.. post back how it went.
SuperDanny
12-18-2011, 10:05 PM
the converters if original I would expect with those codes to be shot. test them first.. post back how it went.
OK, my daughter just came back for the holidays. Hooked up vacuum gauge and my vacuum is at about 20mm Hg, which is decent. I had my son rev the truck to 2000 and keep it there. Vacuum stays put right on 20mm. Still the truck is throwing a solid code at idle and when you drive it, starts flashing the CEL. With the vacuum not dropping (and this purportedly means the CATS are not clogged), what would be the next check?
Thanks.
OK, my daughter just came back for the holidays. Hooked up vacuum gauge and my vacuum is at about 20mm Hg, which is decent. I had my son rev the truck to 2000 and keep it there. Vacuum stays put right on 20mm. Still the truck is throwing a solid code at idle and when you drive it, starts flashing the CEL. With the vacuum not dropping (and this purportedly means the CATS are not clogged), what would be the next check?
Thanks.
mishalah
12-19-2011, 03:02 AM
OK, my daughter just came back for the holidays. Hooked up vacuum gauge and my vacuum is at about 20mm Hg, which is decent. I had my son rev the truck to 2000 and keep it there. Vacuum stays put right on 20mm. Still the truck is throwing a solid code at idle and when you drive it, starts flashing the CEL. With the vacuum not dropping (and this purportedly means the CATS are not clogged), what would be the next check?
Thanks.
Probably your wallet. ;)
Sorry....couldn't resist. :)
Thanks.
Probably your wallet. ;)
Sorry....couldn't resist. :)
j cAT
12-19-2011, 02:16 PM
OK, my daughter just came back for the holidays. Hooked up vacuum gauge and my vacuum is at about 20mm Hg, which is decent. I had my son rev the truck to 2000 and keep it there. Vacuum stays put right on 20mm. Still the truck is throwing a solid code at idle and when you drive it, starts flashing the CEL. With the vacuum not dropping (and this purportedly means the CATS are not clogged), what would be the next check?
Thanks.
even with the vac test done remove the upstream O2 sensors leave hole open and drive it. see if the power returns.
the fuel pressure is good. injectors are not leaking down.
post what codes you have now with resetting the pcm/computer.
Thanks.
even with the vac test done remove the upstream O2 sensors leave hole open and drive it. see if the power returns.
the fuel pressure is good. injectors are not leaking down.
post what codes you have now with resetting the pcm/computer.
SuperDanny
12-19-2011, 07:07 PM
Probably your wallet. ;)
Sorry....couldn't resist. :)
No worries. At this point, I do have a great sense of humor!
Sorry....couldn't resist. :)
No worries. At this point, I do have a great sense of humor!
SuperDanny
12-19-2011, 07:12 PM
even with the vac test done remove the upstream O2 sensors leave hole open and drive it. see if the power returns.
the fuel pressure is good. injectors are not leaking down.
post what codes you have now with resetting the pcm/computer.
Thanks (again!) J Cat. I'll try this later this week, with the warm temps we have here in the South. But won't the car run like a three legged dog with the O2's disconnected and out? Isn't that how the PCM determines air to fuel? Would you just leave the O2's connected electrically but just removed from their holes? Do you mean by posting what codes I have now like right now or after I do the 'remove the O2 sensor' test?
I know resetting the PCM would be just to disconnect battery cable for about 30 minutes.
thanks again J Cat. I may be either near getting at the problem or closer to just taking this somewhere.
the fuel pressure is good. injectors are not leaking down.
post what codes you have now with resetting the pcm/computer.
Thanks (again!) J Cat. I'll try this later this week, with the warm temps we have here in the South. But won't the car run like a three legged dog with the O2's disconnected and out? Isn't that how the PCM determines air to fuel? Would you just leave the O2's connected electrically but just removed from their holes? Do you mean by posting what codes I have now like right now or after I do the 'remove the O2 sensor' test?
I know resetting the PCM would be just to disconnect battery cable for about 30 minutes.
thanks again J Cat. I may be either near getting at the problem or closer to just taking this somewhere.
SuperDanny
12-26-2011, 10:15 PM
even with the vac test done remove the upstream O2 sensors leave hole open and drive it. see if the power returns.
the fuel pressure is good. injectors are not leaking down.
post what codes you have now with resetting the pcm/computer.
OK, just had time to do the test today. I removed and unplugged both pre-cat (upstream)O2 sensors and drove the truck. Power still subpar and you could really hear the 'miss' even better with the exhaust noise. I put the O2 sensors back in. One recent observation - upon startup I've been noticing a very distinct raw fuel smell. It goes away after the truck warms up, but when I did that test today (O2 sensor removal), you could smell the raw gas even more.
I didn't get the codes from the computer yet...
the fuel pressure is good. injectors are not leaking down.
post what codes you have now with resetting the pcm/computer.
OK, just had time to do the test today. I removed and unplugged both pre-cat (upstream)O2 sensors and drove the truck. Power still subpar and you could really hear the 'miss' even better with the exhaust noise. I put the O2 sensors back in. One recent observation - upon startup I've been noticing a very distinct raw fuel smell. It goes away after the truck warms up, but when I did that test today (O2 sensor removal), you could smell the raw gas even more.
I didn't get the codes from the computer yet...
j cAT
12-27-2011, 07:55 AM
OK, just had time to do the test today. I removed and unplugged both pre-cat (upstream)O2 sensors and drove the truck. Power still subpar and you could really hear the 'miss' even better with the exhaust noise. I put the O2 sensors back in. One recent observation - upon startup I've been noticing a very distinct raw fuel smell. It goes away after the truck warms up, but when I did that test today (O2 sensor removal), you could smell the raw gas even more.
I didn't get the codes from the computer yet...
the ignition control module the distributor bearing, the pickup coil. ignition coil. these could be why you get miss fires ..
measure the spark plug wire resistance and check the insulation and wire hold downs for wires to be in the proper place . when they get hot the resistance of the wire rises . open / high resistance wires can damage the ICM..
you can test some of these with a meter. the ICM autozone store may have the wells module tester . I just did one a couple weeks ago on a 1994 s10 v6. module tested bad . had miss fires when hot. hard start when hot. this got worse over a 6 month period. the autozone tester revealed it was with improper operation.
I didn't get the codes from the computer yet...
the ignition control module the distributor bearing, the pickup coil. ignition coil. these could be why you get miss fires ..
measure the spark plug wire resistance and check the insulation and wire hold downs for wires to be in the proper place . when they get hot the resistance of the wire rises . open / high resistance wires can damage the ICM..
you can test some of these with a meter. the ICM autozone store may have the wells module tester . I just did one a couple weeks ago on a 1994 s10 v6. module tested bad . had miss fires when hot. hard start when hot. this got worse over a 6 month period. the autozone tester revealed it was with improper operation.
SuperDanny
12-27-2011, 08:37 AM
the ignition control module the distributor bearing, the pickup coil. ignition coil. these could be why you get miss fires ..
measure the spark plug wire resistance and check the insulation and wire hold downs for wires to be in the proper place . when they get hot the resistance of the wire rises . open / high resistance wires can damage the ICM..
you can test some of these with a meter. the ICM autozone store may have the wells module tester . I just did one a couple weeks ago on a 1994 s10 v6. module tested bad . had miss fires when hot. hard start when hot. this got worse over a 6 month period. the autozone tester revealed it was with improper operation.
Thanks. by distributor bearing, you don't mean the gear, you mean the internal bearing? Wires/plugs changed (new AC Delco) in early 2010. Ignition coil tested good. Haven't tested the ICM or pickup. I guess a mores sophisticated engine analyzer would test out the distributor too. Many Thanks for these suggestions Icat!
measure the spark plug wire resistance and check the insulation and wire hold downs for wires to be in the proper place . when they get hot the resistance of the wire rises . open / high resistance wires can damage the ICM..
you can test some of these with a meter. the ICM autozone store may have the wells module tester . I just did one a couple weeks ago on a 1994 s10 v6. module tested bad . had miss fires when hot. hard start when hot. this got worse over a 6 month period. the autozone tester revealed it was with improper operation.
Thanks. by distributor bearing, you don't mean the gear, you mean the internal bearing? Wires/plugs changed (new AC Delco) in early 2010. Ignition coil tested good. Haven't tested the ICM or pickup. I guess a mores sophisticated engine analyzer would test out the distributor too. Many Thanks for these suggestions Icat!
777stickman
12-27-2011, 10:27 AM
To check the dist bushings and drive gear for wear, remove the cap. Push down on the rotor and lightly rotate left and right. No rotational or side to side play is allowed.
SuperDanny
12-28-2011, 10:34 PM
Ok. Tested the ICM and it's fine. Ignition coil also good. I took off distributor cap and I was able to turn the rotor left and right a little. I thought though that you could always do this a little. Tomorrow I will check the coil pick up (cam position sensor). Wish I had a nice scan tool/engine analyzer. Thanks both jcat and 777stickman.
777stickman
12-29-2011, 09:47 AM
I knew that I should have highlighted NO ROTATIONAL PLAY ALLOWED. Any play indicates a worn drive gear and this is a major cause for misfires.
SuperDanny
12-30-2011, 12:42 PM
I knew that I should have highlighted NO ROTATIONAL PLAY ALLOWED. Any play indicates a worn drive gear and this is a major cause for misfires.
OK, just pulled the distributor and also tested the camshaft position sensor (coil pick up). It tested fine. I do get some rotational play when the distributor is installed, but when I pulled out the distributor out and grabbed the gear and tried to rotate the rotor, there is NO play. The gear looks like it's in good shape. No missing teeth or anything. Is there any other check for the distributor since I have it out?
OK, just pulled the distributor and also tested the camshaft position sensor (coil pick up). It tested fine. I do get some rotational play when the distributor is installed, but when I pulled out the distributor out and grabbed the gear and tried to rotate the rotor, there is NO play. The gear looks like it's in good shape. No missing teeth or anything. Is there any other check for the distributor since I have it out?
j cAT
12-30-2011, 01:14 PM
OK, just pulled the distributor and also tested the camshaft position sensor (coil pick up). It tested fine. I do get some rotational play when the distributor is installed, but when I pulled out the distributor out and grabbed the gear and tried to rotate the rotor, there is NO play. The gear looks like it's in good shape. No missing teeth or anything. Is there any other check for the distributor since I have it out?
the distributor gear on the distributor is what wears out,,, if it is the oem one. replace this gear with a new oem gear. the gear is designed to wear so the the cam gear does not.
removal of the distributor from engine , with a worn/new gear you should not have any play.
you will see the wear when you get the new gear ..
the distributor gear on the distributor is what wears out,,, if it is the oem one. replace this gear with a new oem gear. the gear is designed to wear so the the cam gear does not.
removal of the distributor from engine , with a worn/new gear you should not have any play.
you will see the wear when you get the new gear ..
SuperDanny
12-30-2011, 02:02 PM
the distributor gear on the distributor is what wears out,,, if it is the oem one. replace this gear with a new oem gear. the gear is designed to wear so the the cam gear does not.
removal of the distributor from engine , with a worn/new gear you should not have any play.
you will see the wear when you get the new gear ..
already ordered from Amazon. i had ordered it yesterday then cancelled the order earlier this morning, but now reordered. I get what you are saying. There would still be play due to the distributor gear fitting too loosely in the cam gear. Amazon has 'em for $32, shipped, no tax.
removal of the distributor from engine , with a worn/new gear you should not have any play.
you will see the wear when you get the new gear ..
already ordered from Amazon. i had ordered it yesterday then cancelled the order earlier this morning, but now reordered. I get what you are saying. There would still be play due to the distributor gear fitting too loosely in the cam gear. Amazon has 'em for $32, shipped, no tax.
SuperDanny
01-06-2012, 07:28 AM
Just put the gear on the distributor. Very easy and honestly, the old one didn't look bad. Small problem - somehow the notched drive on the oil pump got moved slightly and I can't get the distributor to drop back in its correct orientation (marked). It will drop, but not in the correct spot. I've tried turning the oil pump drive with a long slotted screwdriver, but its tedious. I'll get it soon and post what I find about the miss.
j cAT
01-06-2012, 07:31 AM
Just put the gear on the distributor. Very easy and honestly, the old one didn't look bad. Small problem - somehow the notched drive on the oil pump got moved slightly and I can't get the distributor to drop back in its correct orientation (marked). It will drop, but not in the correct spot. I've tried turning the oil pump drive with a long slotted screwdriver, but its tedious. I'll get it soon and post what I find about the miss.
the oil pump connection always makes this a PITA....
the oil pump connection always makes this a PITA....
SuperDanny
01-06-2012, 12:54 PM
OK, update: Got the distributor dropped in, with the new gear. No difference at all. Still running very rough. I would classify the truck running rough rather than any intermittent miss, or, you might say it misses all the time. What has seemed to get worse is the heavy gas smell on startup and continuing until the truck starts to get warmed up.
Could one or more injectors be clogged or even not working (but not leaking, since I did the leakdown pressure test and fuel pressure holds after the fuel pump is shut off) and this causes misfires?
Could one or more injectors be clogged or even not working (but not leaking, since I did the leakdown pressure test and fuel pressure holds after the fuel pump is shut off) and this causes misfires?
j cAT
01-06-2012, 01:52 PM
OK, update: Got the distributor dropped in, with the new gear. No difference at all. Still running very rough. I would classify the truck running rough rather than any intermittent miss, or, you might say it misses all the time. What has seemed to get worse is the heavy gas smell on startup and continuing until the truck starts to get warmed up.
Could one or more injectors be clogged or even not working (but not leaking, since I did the leakdown pressure test and fuel pressure holds after the fuel pump is shut off) and this causes misfires?
fuel pressures and drop off are good so fuel should be ok. how does the spark look . is it blue and you have a good amount of voltage [jump].
the distributor pick up coil tested good ? timing adjusted ? vacuum still high at idle 17-21 inches ?
on possibility would be a bad MAP with good vacuum at idle the MAP voltage should be 1.2 volts..if too high the engine will run too rich. also you did replace or test the ECT ?
Could one or more injectors be clogged or even not working (but not leaking, since I did the leakdown pressure test and fuel pressure holds after the fuel pump is shut off) and this causes misfires?
fuel pressures and drop off are good so fuel should be ok. how does the spark look . is it blue and you have a good amount of voltage [jump].
the distributor pick up coil tested good ? timing adjusted ? vacuum still high at idle 17-21 inches ?
on possibility would be a bad MAP with good vacuum at idle the MAP voltage should be 1.2 volts..if too high the engine will run too rich. also you did replace or test the ECT ?
SuperDanny
01-06-2012, 02:01 PM
fuel pressures and drop off are good so fuel should be ok. how does the spark look . is it blue and you have a good amount of voltage [jump].
the distributor pick up coil tested good ? timing adjusted ? vacuum still high at idle 17-21 inches ?
on possibility would be a bad MAP with good vacuum at idle the MAP voltage should be 1.2 volts..if too high the engine will run too rich. also you did replace or test the ECT ?
Hi again,
I took off 2-3 plug wires at the distributor and looked like I'm getting good spark jump. Not sure about spark color, but I could look once again. Distributor pick up coil tested good, as did the ignition coil and the ECM. When you say timing adjusted, it was never changed from where it had been. In fact, on this truck, isn't the only way to change the timing is by flashing the PCM? Although, it does look like you 'could' rotate the distributor slightly.
Lastly, I haven't checked the MAP sensor. I thought it would throw a code if it was out of spec. I haven't replaced the Engine coolant temp sensor. My experience with them is that they don't throw any code. there should be two of these, one for the gauge and one for the PCM (which is, in the block on the left side?).
the distributor pick up coil tested good ? timing adjusted ? vacuum still high at idle 17-21 inches ?
on possibility would be a bad MAP with good vacuum at idle the MAP voltage should be 1.2 volts..if too high the engine will run too rich. also you did replace or test the ECT ?
Hi again,
I took off 2-3 plug wires at the distributor and looked like I'm getting good spark jump. Not sure about spark color, but I could look once again. Distributor pick up coil tested good, as did the ignition coil and the ECM. When you say timing adjusted, it was never changed from where it had been. In fact, on this truck, isn't the only way to change the timing is by flashing the PCM? Although, it does look like you 'could' rotate the distributor slightly.
Lastly, I haven't checked the MAP sensor. I thought it would throw a code if it was out of spec. I haven't replaced the Engine coolant temp sensor. My experience with them is that they don't throw any code. there should be two of these, one for the gauge and one for the PCM (which is, in the block on the left side?).
j cAT
01-06-2012, 02:30 PM
Hi again,
I took off 2-3 plug wires at the distributor and looked like I'm getting good spark jump. Not sure about spark color, but I could look once again. Distributor pick up coil tested good, as did the ignition coil and the ECM. When you say timing adjusted, it was never changed from where it had been. In fact, on this truck, isn't the only way to change the timing is by flashing the PCM? Although, it does look like you 'could' rotate the distributor slightly.
Lastly, I haven't checked the MAP sensor. I thought it would throw a code if it was out of spec. I haven't replaced the Engine coolant temp sensor. My experience with them is that they don't throw any code. there should be two of these, one for the gauge and one for the PCM (which is, in the block on the left side?).
the ECT for the PCM should be on the intake manifold area , the guage should be on the block driver side.
check for proper part and location and replace its about 20.oo..
10 years and they go out of cal.
I took off 2-3 plug wires at the distributor and looked like I'm getting good spark jump. Not sure about spark color, but I could look once again. Distributor pick up coil tested good, as did the ignition coil and the ECM. When you say timing adjusted, it was never changed from where it had been. In fact, on this truck, isn't the only way to change the timing is by flashing the PCM? Although, it does look like you 'could' rotate the distributor slightly.
Lastly, I haven't checked the MAP sensor. I thought it would throw a code if it was out of spec. I haven't replaced the Engine coolant temp sensor. My experience with them is that they don't throw any code. there should be two of these, one for the gauge and one for the PCM (which is, in the block on the left side?).
the ECT for the PCM should be on the intake manifold area , the guage should be on the block driver side.
check for proper part and location and replace its about 20.oo..
10 years and they go out of cal.
SuperDanny
01-06-2012, 02:33 PM
the ECT for the PCM should be on the intake manifold area , the guage should be on the block driver side.
check for proper part and location and replace its about 20.oo..
10 years and they go out of cal.
correct, and I spoke too quickly. The gauge sensor is usually on the block and the actual PCM one is often on the thermostat elbow or maybe intake. Also will check the MAP sensor voltage reading at idle.
check for proper part and location and replace its about 20.oo..
10 years and they go out of cal.
correct, and I spoke too quickly. The gauge sensor is usually on the block and the actual PCM one is often on the thermostat elbow or maybe intake. Also will check the MAP sensor voltage reading at idle.
SuperDanny
01-08-2012, 09:18 AM
the ECT for the PCM should be on the intake manifold area , the guage should be on the block driver side.
check for proper part and location and replace its about 20.oo..
10 years and they go out of cal.
OK, replaced the temp sensor (needed it anyway - RUST!) and the MAP sensor checks out ok. Truck still runs rough. Perhaps i shouldn't call this a miss, but runs very rough and especially with mid throttle. Gas smells at startup. Runs much rougher in open loop. Once closed loop starts after a minute or two, starts to run some better (but not very good, mind you). It almost starts to smooth out around 4,000-5,000 rpm, but that might be more of a resonance at where the truck doesn't shake. Would EGR be a culprit??? I'm doing a PCM reset right now since I replaced the ECT.
check for proper part and location and replace its about 20.oo..
10 years and they go out of cal.
OK, replaced the temp sensor (needed it anyway - RUST!) and the MAP sensor checks out ok. Truck still runs rough. Perhaps i shouldn't call this a miss, but runs very rough and especially with mid throttle. Gas smells at startup. Runs much rougher in open loop. Once closed loop starts after a minute or two, starts to run some better (but not very good, mind you). It almost starts to smooth out around 4,000-5,000 rpm, but that might be more of a resonance at where the truck doesn't shake. Would EGR be a culprit??? I'm doing a PCM reset right now since I replaced the ECT.
j cAT
01-08-2012, 10:37 AM
OK, replaced the temp sensor (needed it anyway - RUST!) and the MAP sensor checks out ok. Truck still runs rough. Perhaps i shouldn't call this a miss, but runs very rough and especially with mid throttle. Gas smells at startup. Runs much rougher in open loop. Once closed loop starts after a minute or two, starts to run some better (but not very good, mind you). It almost starts to smooth out around 4,000-5,000 rpm, but that might be more of a resonance at where the truck doesn't shake. Would EGR be a culprit??? I'm doing a PCM reset right now since I replaced the ECT.
you checked the engine vacuum and got 17-21 inches ? if so the EGR if leaking exhaust into the intake would cause a lower vacuum.
a cracked intake manifold could also do this ..where the exhaust flows into the intake through the crack..the map volt would also show a voltage above 1.2 volts at idle if these items had these issues.
seen this on a monti carlo intake cracked at the EGR area ,causing your problem ..map voltage was 3 volts..
you checked the engine vacuum and got 17-21 inches ? if so the EGR if leaking exhaust into the intake would cause a lower vacuum.
a cracked intake manifold could also do this ..where the exhaust flows into the intake through the crack..the map volt would also show a voltage above 1.2 volts at idle if these items had these issues.
seen this on a monti carlo intake cracked at the EGR area ,causing your problem ..map voltage was 3 volts..
SuperDanny
01-08-2012, 04:50 PM
you checked the engine vacuum and got 17-21 inches ? if so the EGR if leaking exhaust into the intake would cause a lower vacuum.
a cracked intake manifold could also do this ..where the exhaust flows into the intake through the crack..the map volt would also show a voltage above 1.2 volts at idle if these items had these issues.
seen this on a monti carlo intake cracked at the EGR area ,causing your problem ..map voltage was 3 volts..
So, if I'm seeing around 20-21 mm vacuum, no way could the EGR be bad. I put on a new intake manifold gasket in July, 2009. Made the truck run better too. I'm throwing in the towel and taking it somewhere tomorrow. Have had enough!
a cracked intake manifold could also do this ..where the exhaust flows into the intake through the crack..the map volt would also show a voltage above 1.2 volts at idle if these items had these issues.
seen this on a monti carlo intake cracked at the EGR area ,causing your problem ..map voltage was 3 volts..
So, if I'm seeing around 20-21 mm vacuum, no way could the EGR be bad. I put on a new intake manifold gasket in July, 2009. Made the truck run better too. I'm throwing in the towel and taking it somewhere tomorrow. Have had enough!
SuperDanny
01-10-2012, 07:21 PM
Well, here's the scoop:
The mechanic I took it to said there are two problems:
1. EGR was not working. He's going to clean it and see if he can eliminate the code. Might work and he said this will cause misfire codes.
2. Now the bad news - he said on the misfire history, cylinder 3 is misfiring about 90-95% of the time. He checked compression on cylinder 3 and was nearly 0. He believes part of the valve train is wrecked - the roller rocker/lifter/pushrod. Of course, if you take things down to the extent that you repair #3, you really ought to finish the job on all 8 cylinders. The roller rocker assemblies are pretty pricy on these trucks. Price coming tomorrow, but with 260,000 miles, I'm thinking about letting the truck go...
The mechanic I took it to said there are two problems:
1. EGR was not working. He's going to clean it and see if he can eliminate the code. Might work and he said this will cause misfire codes.
2. Now the bad news - he said on the misfire history, cylinder 3 is misfiring about 90-95% of the time. He checked compression on cylinder 3 and was nearly 0. He believes part of the valve train is wrecked - the roller rocker/lifter/pushrod. Of course, if you take things down to the extent that you repair #3, you really ought to finish the job on all 8 cylinders. The roller rocker assemblies are pretty pricy on these trucks. Price coming tomorrow, but with 260,000 miles, I'm thinking about letting the truck go...
j cAT
01-11-2012, 07:20 AM
Well, here's the scoop:
The mechanic I took it to said there are two problems:
1. EGR was not working. He's going to clean it and see if he can eliminate the code. Might work and he said this will cause misfire codes.
2. Now the bad news - he said on the misfire history, cylinder 3 is misfiring about 90-95% of the time. He checked compression on cylinder 3 and was nearly 0. He believes part of the valve train is wrecked - the roller rocker/lifter/pushrod. Of course, if you take things down to the extent that you repair #3, you really ought to finish the job on all 8 cylinders. The roller rocker assemblies are pretty pricy on these trucks. Price coming tomorrow, but with 260,000 miles, I'm thinking about letting the truck go...
the cylinder not working could be just a broken/weak valve spring. not a big cost. the vacuum check should have revealed the dead cylinder.
the egr with that many miles is most likely not working as it should. most times when age attacks them they open too much ..other times stick open ..not a big expense..
since this compression is off on #3 only my guess would be the spring..
The mechanic I took it to said there are two problems:
1. EGR was not working. He's going to clean it and see if he can eliminate the code. Might work and he said this will cause misfire codes.
2. Now the bad news - he said on the misfire history, cylinder 3 is misfiring about 90-95% of the time. He checked compression on cylinder 3 and was nearly 0. He believes part of the valve train is wrecked - the roller rocker/lifter/pushrod. Of course, if you take things down to the extent that you repair #3, you really ought to finish the job on all 8 cylinders. The roller rocker assemblies are pretty pricy on these trucks. Price coming tomorrow, but with 260,000 miles, I'm thinking about letting the truck go...
the cylinder not working could be just a broken/weak valve spring. not a big cost. the vacuum check should have revealed the dead cylinder.
the egr with that many miles is most likely not working as it should. most times when age attacks them they open too much ..other times stick open ..not a big expense..
since this compression is off on #3 only my guess would be the spring..
SuperDanny
01-11-2012, 07:40 AM
the cylinder not working could be just a broken/weak valve spring. not a big cost. the vacuum check should have revealed the dead cylinder.
the egr with that many miles is most likely not working as it should. most times when age attacks them they open too much ..other times stick open ..not a big expense..
since this compression is off on #3 only my guess would be the spring..
that's what i was even thinking (weak valve spring) on #3. Also makes sense that going down the road under less load (and higher rpm), you don't feel the problem quite as bad. But he might be wrong on the EGR. Not that it might not be Fubar'd, but i had accidentally unplugged it while the engine was running, and the engine may not have had enough starts/run time to turn that code off. Those EGR's are sorta pricey i think though. much more than the ones back in the day (early vacuum ones). But a very easy fix.
He said the cylinder was showing about 10% compression. It would pump up, but wouldn't hold under load.
the egr with that many miles is most likely not working as it should. most times when age attacks them they open too much ..other times stick open ..not a big expense..
since this compression is off on #3 only my guess would be the spring..
that's what i was even thinking (weak valve spring) on #3. Also makes sense that going down the road under less load (and higher rpm), you don't feel the problem quite as bad. But he might be wrong on the EGR. Not that it might not be Fubar'd, but i had accidentally unplugged it while the engine was running, and the engine may not have had enough starts/run time to turn that code off. Those EGR's are sorta pricey i think though. much more than the ones back in the day (early vacuum ones). But a very easy fix.
He said the cylinder was showing about 10% compression. It would pump up, but wouldn't hold under load.
SuperDanny
01-11-2012, 08:00 AM
the cylinder not working could be just a broken/weak valve spring. not a big cost. the vacuum check should have revealed the dead cylinder.
Correct. I looked closely at the needle on the vacuum gauge for intermittent drops (shows valvetrain issues, e.g sticking valves, etc.) I didn't see much waiver but may not have paid enough attention. Will call mechanic in just a few...
Correct. I looked closely at the needle on the vacuum gauge for intermittent drops (shows valvetrain issues, e.g sticking valves, etc.) I didn't see much waiver but may not have paid enough attention. Will call mechanic in just a few...
SuperDanny
01-14-2012, 02:55 PM
This is embarrassing....the issue was with the spark plugs. Those iridium plugs are very sensitive (much more than copper, which i run in several other vehicles) to fouling. Basically, I put in a set of new AC Delco plugs and my truck runs like new. Yeah, my plugs only had about 20 months on them, maybe 18,000 miles. Shoulda lasted a lot longer. They weren't severely oil fouled or anything, but I think the iridium's, with those very small tips, are sensitve.
Probably gonna put a new rotor on too. The plugs may have burned a little quicker due to the spent O2 sensors, but they're pretty new now...
Probably gonna put a new rotor on too. The plugs may have burned a little quicker due to the spent O2 sensors, but they're pretty new now...
j cAT
01-15-2012, 08:19 AM
This is embarrassing....the issue was with the spark plugs. Those iridium plugs are very sensitive (much more than copper, which i run in several other vehicles) to fouling. Basically, I put in a set of new AC Delco plugs and my truck runs like new. Yeah, my plugs only had about 20 months on them, maybe 18,000 miles. Shoulda lasted a lot longer. They weren't severely oil fouled or anything, but I think the iridium's, with those very small tips, are sensitve.
Probably gonna put a new rotor on too. The plugs may have burned a little quicker due to the spent O2 sensors, but they're pretty new now...
thanks for the feedback with the issue.
you cannot mess with the irridium plug gap. this will cause this type of problem. very fragile wire tip.. if the gap is off the plugs are defective. checking gap just use eyeball...
the plugs have warrantee ...see if you can get replacements free..
this is more common than you may think...good luck...
Probably gonna put a new rotor on too. The plugs may have burned a little quicker due to the spent O2 sensors, but they're pretty new now...
thanks for the feedback with the issue.
you cannot mess with the irridium plug gap. this will cause this type of problem. very fragile wire tip.. if the gap is off the plugs are defective. checking gap just use eyeball...
the plugs have warrantee ...see if you can get replacements free..
this is more common than you may think...good luck...
SuperDanny
01-15-2012, 09:23 AM
thanks for the feedback with the issue.
you cannot mess with the irridium plug gap. this will cause this type of problem. very fragile wire tip.. if the gap is off the plugs are defective. checking gap just use eyeball...
the plugs have warrantee ...see if you can get replacements free..
this is more common than you may think...good luck...
Thanks j cAT,
I probably did check gap back in early 2010 when they were installed. I did likely 'adjust' some of them back then in 2010, but did it very gently. I tried to barely touch the little tip. If I did adjust the gap, I did it at the base, correctly. But thanks for this info. Never knew you weren't supposed to mess with the gap on these!! And to my dismay, i also checked gap on the new plugs i just put in yesterday and had to adjust 3 or 4. Hope they are OK...
On the EGR valve, it was throwing a code too (basically not working), but now it IS working. I used a scan tool to open and close it - once I powered it several times open and close, I was able to get it unstuck. These are expensive and that valve is original. Will probably get a Delphi or Delco soon. I know it's on its last leg.
The truck runs GREAT now by the way - I just hope i didn't damage the new plugs by adjusting gap. So far I can't tell, but are you saying that by adjusting them, I may have compromised their lifespan?
you cannot mess with the irridium plug gap. this will cause this type of problem. very fragile wire tip.. if the gap is off the plugs are defective. checking gap just use eyeball...
the plugs have warrantee ...see if you can get replacements free..
this is more common than you may think...good luck...
Thanks j cAT,
I probably did check gap back in early 2010 when they were installed. I did likely 'adjust' some of them back then in 2010, but did it very gently. I tried to barely touch the little tip. If I did adjust the gap, I did it at the base, correctly. But thanks for this info. Never knew you weren't supposed to mess with the gap on these!! And to my dismay, i also checked gap on the new plugs i just put in yesterday and had to adjust 3 or 4. Hope they are OK...
On the EGR valve, it was throwing a code too (basically not working), but now it IS working. I used a scan tool to open and close it - once I powered it several times open and close, I was able to get it unstuck. These are expensive and that valve is original. Will probably get a Delphi or Delco soon. I know it's on its last leg.
The truck runs GREAT now by the way - I just hope i didn't damage the new plugs by adjusting gap. So far I can't tell, but are you saying that by adjusting them, I may have compromised their lifespan?
j cAT
01-15-2012, 10:01 AM
well hopefully you won't have any plug issues again..but I would be surprised if they work for the normal life..
the concerns I have with missfires would be the cat converters getting damaged. unburned fuel will damage them..
these issues will help others ..
the concerns I have with missfires would be the cat converters getting damaged. unburned fuel will damage them..
these issues will help others ..
SuperDanny
05-27-2012, 08:50 PM
well hopefully you won't have any plug issues again..but I would be surprised if they work for the normal life..
the concerns I have with missfires would be the cat converters getting damaged. unburned fuel will damage them..
these issues will help others ..
Hi again. I replaced the catalytic converters, both of them, and now no codes on them (I had been getting the catalyst efficiency code for BOTH banks). But what we've been noticing over the last two months is that the truck runs a little rough right at start up. It just lasts maybe 8-10 seconds, or basically when you give it the gas and drive, it clears right up. The other day it did it just long enough that it set the dreaded multiple misfire code. Might my plugs be bad again? What would cause this if that is the case? Would the clogged cats cause the plugs to foul quicker?
the concerns I have with missfires would be the cat converters getting damaged. unburned fuel will damage them..
these issues will help others ..
Hi again. I replaced the catalytic converters, both of them, and now no codes on them (I had been getting the catalyst efficiency code for BOTH banks). But what we've been noticing over the last two months is that the truck runs a little rough right at start up. It just lasts maybe 8-10 seconds, or basically when you give it the gas and drive, it clears right up. The other day it did it just long enough that it set the dreaded multiple misfire code. Might my plugs be bad again? What would cause this if that is the case? Would the clogged cats cause the plugs to foul quicker?
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