Trouble Brewing Between Ford and I ....

Ok, Here is the latest scam Ford is doing with the Windstar to get the older ones off the road. My Winnie is a 99 LX with 3.8. Has 164K on it and has some dents and worn paint, but have maintained it mecanically. After waiting for months for a rear axle to becone avail. (n the meantime, they came out with from sub recall, I think as a way to get these problem cars off the road and not have to fix anymore) I took car in because rear axle is cracked and got saftely recall for front sub-frame while waiting. They called me to say they won't do work because sub-frame failed and they took pictures to send to Ford to see if could be fixed some way. I said great, replace rear axle and let me know about sub. Said, they won't fix ANYTHING until Ford engineers decide if can fix sub and gave me a loaner. Obviously, they want to scrap the car since it will cost Ford more to fix then it worth - book value wise (guessing $ 1,500-$2,000). Can I demand they fix it since car is worth more to me or demand it back? Can they just keep it? Any legal advice wound me appreciated? You would think they would try and keep customers these days ..... I mean they are defective parts that's why the cars aren't worth anything.

AJ

I did a search on parts online.......the place that I mentioned a while back on here, Y2K Ford, aka Millenium Ford, has gone out of business.......and it looks like the online seaches that I do direct me to Horizon Ford.......partsguyed seems to be their online parts.
However......the front cradle (called engine cradle), which I have always thought of as being the "subframe".......check the illustration to verify......
The Engine cradle lists for about $935 and partsguyed has it online for about $673, and it fits '99-03

Rear "axle assembly" comes up with a list price of $497, but partsguyed online price is about $358.
Rear "axle beam" lists at the same price, with their online price the same as "axle assemlby" but it lists it for '99-03. I think this is the part they are talking about as this is the one that goes from one side of the vehicle to the other.
Check the website, and the "view illustration" to verify.

Of course, this is not to say that these parts are available.....if they cannot get them for the repair of vehicles waiting in the shop......it would be not normal if you could just go online and order them.

I might be able to replace the rear axle in my driveway.....but the front subframe is way out of my league for doing myself.

Parts availability is an issue in almost very industry.
With the downturn in the economy, most places cut inventories and production capacity.
This goes all the way back to the raw material supplies.
They are having issues with getting parts to build new cars.....
The parts for the windstar, a vehicle that has been out of production for some time now, is more difficult as the supplier has to retool to make this part.......and not as many of them as they would for a new car line.
I am sure that, when they shut down production of the windstar line, they did not forcast this high demand for the subframe and/or rear axle.
This does not improve your situation, or that of the many other people waiting for their vehicle to be repaired.....but I'm trying to explain why the situation exists.
The BEST situation would be for these parts to not be rusting out.....the recall does not seem to apply to the older windstars.
I just looked on alldatadiy for the '96, and neither recall shows up.

I am not qualified to offer legal advice....and laws do vary somewhat from state to state.

Wiswind,

As always thanks for the info. Maybe if I can get the the front sub-frame (cradle) they'll reimb me and fix the the sub and rear axle? However, I think they want to get these Windstars off the road. Been a problem car for Ford. I'm going to try to keep it on the road.

Thanks,

AJ

There are a LOT of windstars on the road.
I don't think that the windstar has been as much of a reliability problem for FORD as the Caravan family has been for Chrysler.
I felt that my '96 was quite reliable.
I did a LOT of stuff with it, but only because I'm obsessive about having my vehicle in good shape.
I think FORD is well ahead of Chrysler and GM in quality.....just my opinion.
I think the issue with the parts is getting a supplier to get a production run started up for a small (as compared to current production vehicle parts) run.
You tool up for a run of 2000 parts or for a run of a couple million (many models share common parts) parts.......they are going to follow the money and the windstar parts are going to be 2nd priority (for the supplier, not FORD).
Now FORD is stuck with unhappy customers in rental cars and older vehicles in the shop......and it is costing FORD a ton of money and customer loyalty.
If they can satisfy customers by giving them a good deal on a new car, then that would be the way to go as many folks will jump at a good deal on a new car rather than spend much money on what they have.
You and I realize the value of not buying another vehicle when we don't HAVE to.
But you and I are not the average car owner.
I was very happy with my Windstar.....I bought it 3 years old in '99 with just under 38K miles on it.
I finally gave in to my parents worrying about me driving a 13 year old car with over 229K miles on it........and so I bought their 7 year old Sienna from them when they bought a 2010 Sienna.
That was my "new" car purchase.
I had no problem selling my windstar......folks were coming to me asking to buy it.
I am very happy with my Sienna, and plan to keep it for a long time.

There are a number of Windstars on the road. Ford has a tricky problem on their hands...similar to what GM faced when the old Corvair was determined to be "Unsafe at any Speed". There must be many Windstars on the road that have rusted suspension components and the owner/drivers are not aware. There are accidents waiting to happen. How do these corporate leaders sleep at night? What is the "right" response for them? An inspection program for all Windstars, not just those currently in "salt states"? I would think that would be a minimum effort.

My '99 has not seen much road salt ... so far, so good with the subframe and rear axle ... but that thin side-to-side "beam" is heavily rusted, it must have had almost no paint on it.

The issue with the corair was the vehicle design was not safe.
The Windstar design is safe, as demonstrated by many millions of miles on many vehicles.
The windstar (1999 and newer) are unsafe when parts rust........they dropped the ball on the newer windstars on certain critical components.
They are fine, as long as they are not exposed to rust conditions.
My Sienna got a recall......the spare tire setup on it is the SAME as it was on my old '96 windstar.
On the sienna, the end of the cable and metal cross member rusts in rust prone areas.....and the spare tire falls off the vehicle......not good if you are on a city freeway in heavy traffic and you drop a full size tire into the road.
It took a while for the problem to show up........but it caused a recall.
A little paint.......there would not have been any issue, but hind sight is 20/20.
These things should NEVER happen, these companies have been making vehicles for MANY years now......and KNOW that things rust if not painted, or different materials are used.
However, they seem to forget.......all of them do.

Ok, Ford got back to me and they said they are condeming the car ... not save to drive with cracked rear axle and corroded sub-frame. BV about $2,000-2,500 based on Edmunds. Said they'd give me $3,700, but I told them the car was worth more than that to me and I wanted an estimate of how much to replace front sub-frame. They said no parts avail. I said I got the part let me know how much to put in. They said they'd have to pull the engine ....... not so sure about that? Thinking they could support from bottom and put new sub-frame in and just want the winnies 99-03 off the road. Any idea if engine has to be pulled, If, so what it should cost to do repair, labor on rear axle and front sub?

Thanks,

AJ

I've "eyeballed" replacing the front sub-frame. In fact, some years ago I bought a new replacement sub-frame ... not because of rust, but because I had managed to run over so much "stuff" in the highway, that the leading edge of my sub-frame is fairly flattened and pushed upward toward the engine-front. Anyways, the new sub-frame is still stored in the garage.

I would plan on hanging the engine and tranny ... supporting on a timber across the top of the strut towers. Drop the exhaust crossover pipe ... nothing left but some small tubing. Oh yes, the steering rack has to be loosened. A fairly simple task ... the wheels and axles stay in place. 1/2 day for a serious mechanic ... I would estimate .... all day for me.

BTW, as much as I love my ole Winny, if they offered me $3700 (cash) ... I would have some serious contemplation on my hands.

So, Now I've established what I thought all along, they are trying to get the higher milage 99-03 Winnies off the road. I asked for an estimate to replace sub-frame. Said, Ford Corp. wouldn't authorize any repairs and car sb condemed, but if I really wanted to hold onto it, Dealership would do the work for $3,100, plus cost of sub-frame. I said great and the the $3,700 can pay for the replacement. They said, nope that was for the car and Ford Corp. won't pay for fix. Time to call the Lawyer up the road ..................

AJ

We have a 2001 Windstar. We bought it when it was a year old with 14000 miles. I love it. We now have a 165,000 miles. Last year the transmission started to slip. We spent the 1900 to have it rebuilt and also had the head gaskets and several other age related issues taken care. I want to drive it another couple of years. We received the recall on the axle and we didn't have a crack in the axle unbelievable! I was happy we could keep going. Now we have the front cradle recall. My husband and my brother who is a truck mechanic looked at it this weekend and I have rust and swelling under the mounts started. No way to no how much rust is there. I am afraid to drive. Can Ford fix it? or will I automatically be sent to buy out. I love my van. Right now I don't see anything out there that I feel is worth spending a lot of money on. It is not like I will get the money that I spent on it last year back. I now it is an older car. with the 2-3000 they give me I can't replace what I have. I have never owned anything but a ford in my life and my parents where the same. My grandfather was a ford salesman all his life. I am so disgusted. Readiny on other sites there seems to be a great deal of difference of what they offer different people for the buyouts. I have seen people with older vans get more money than someone with a newer one with less miles on it.
I am so worried.

3100.00 is way to much!! ask to see labor time
they have the means to support the engine to replace under carriage
thats some where around 31 hours,ask them to justify
unfortunitely you will end up loosing...consider the 3700.00
Good luck

Salvage yards remove parts from vehicles .... and most yards across the country are linked together in some internet arrangement...and share from each others inventories. So I would think there are many Windstar subframes and rear axles available that are in good shape ... those that have not seen salt. I would have some queries made there before I abandoned hope.

Mine is 96. All I can say is that Im really happy with it. I know older windstar don't suffer rusty issues. I live in an Island near the sea and I've seen many 99-03 models here. Not sure if they are aware of the real problem driving them (I don't live at USA). But I can say that we don't buy cars as pants. My last car was an 95 Mercury Tracer (engine was in really good condition), but we must sell it because we needed a bigger car. Also I don't drive 100 miles per day because is a small island but I'd like to keep our windstar as much as we can. If I could go with my windstar to Venezuela (were I was born) by ship I could fix there many things and even a paint job would be nice (gas prices there are the lowest in the world, I could fill the tank of my Windstar with 1$ there). But for now that's not an option and I have to try to keep it well maintained as much as possible (parts here are really expensive for me). But considering all I love my windstar it always starts in the morning, no issues while driving and so on. Also we love Ford and Chevrolet cars (not newer chevies) my dad drove a chevrolet pick up many years, now he owns an old ford too.

Buying new car (even used ones) is not an easy job. Good luck with it and try to stay away from lemon cars (Windstar is number 6 on top 20 of lemon cars lol you can find it on google).

regards and good luck dealing with Ford.

To All My Windstar Friends,

I took the $3,720 and the Winnie is headed to the crusher. I figured next year I'd probably be looking at $$$ repairs and I wouldn't get an offer like this again. Purchased a 2009 Toyota Camry. Kids are getting older and one now drives so the Mini was just guzzling the gas for no reason. Plus, longer commute to work these days and with price of gas .... you know the story. Wish an American car company made a quality stylish car like the Camery or Accord so I didn't feel guilty about buying non-American? Hopefully one day they get a clue?

Thank you all for your help and spirited discussions over the years about the Winnie! Special thanks to wiswind, norther_piper, and 12Ounce who really gave me great advice ...... saved me $$$$; and I enjoyed doing the work! If any of you get a Camry ..... see you on that board!

AvalonJohn ....... Signing-off the Winnie Board!

To All My Windstar Friends,

I took the $3,720 and the Winnie is headed to the crusher. I figured next year I'd probably be looking at $$$ repairs and I wouldn't get an offer like this again. Purchased a 2009 Toyota Camry. Kids are getting older and one now drives so the Mini was just guzzling the gas for no reason. Plus, longer commute to work these days and with price of gas .... you know the story. Wish an American car company made a quality stylish car like the Camery or Accord so I didn't feel guilty about buying non-American? Hopefully one day they get a clue?

Thank you all for your help and spirited discussions over the years about the Winnie! Special thanks to wiswind, norther_piper, and 12Ounce who really gave me great advice ...... saved me $$$$; and I enjoyed doing the work! If any of you get a Camry ..... see you on that board!

AvalonJohn ....... Signing-off the Winnie Board!

I would have taken the $3700 and got another Windstar off of craigslist, then pocketed the rest of the $$$.

Good thought .... buy a Winny from Craigslist for a song, Make sure it has rusted sub-frame ... sell it back to Ford. Hmmm ... might be a good source of income!

They can track the records, and I'm sure that they take this into consideration.
I did read that FORD is returning to the minivan market in the USA soon.
They have a small minivan 'micro?' that they have overseas right now.
I do not think that this is the one that they now import from Turkey.

As far as AvalonJohn's "import" Camry, they are built in the USA and have as many USA sourced parts as any vehicle built in the USA, so I would not feel guilty about buying a non-USA label.

My 2003 Sienna is built on a modified Camry platform (like the Windstar is built on a Taurus platform).
My Sienna has the 3.0 1MZFE motor, I the 2009 Camry has one of the following motors.....2.4L 2AZFE 4 cylinder or 3.5L 2GRFE 6 Cylinder
The 2009 Hybrid Camry has the 2.4L 2AZFXE 4 cylinder.

The BEST place that I have found to look up genuine TOYOTA parts is www.toyotapartszone.com
They have a way to bring up very detailed parts diagrams that show all the little parts, down to the screws and washers, etc
The ONLY place that I have seen such detail is looking on the computer screens at the dealership parts departments.
I wish that I had found such a site for the FORD vehicles.

Yeah, I was saying that "tongue in cheek" ... should have added "LOL".

I hate to see so many of us ridding ourselves of our Winnies. I'm beginning to feel awfully alone. (Should I turn out the lights if I finally leave?)

I am fond of the Flex ... sort of. Isn't it still being produced? I like for corporate profits to stay in the USA, (or NA) as much as possible.... as well as the jobs.

12Ounce -

Yes, the Ford Flex is still out there. I've always kind of liked its design and layout, too - but I don't think it's been a good seller for Ford, so they haven't put a lot of effort into it recently. I suspect one problem is that they haven't been able to price it as a true minivan replacement, and it has lots of competition in the CUV market. My personal grief with the Flex: If I'm going to spend that kind of money for a vehicle that size, I need a tow capacity more than 4500 pounds.

Wiswind -

I've heard that Ford plans to bring the C-Max to North America. The C-Max is a European idea of what a minivan should be - but I suspect it will do well in the US if fuel prices stay high. I kind of like the C-Max - and UK versions can be equipped to tow 3306 pounds (1500 kg), which is notable for a vehicle this size. Whether Ford keeps that tow rating for the lawyer-happy US remains to be seen.

The C-Max appears to be only somewhat related (by corporate platform) to the Ford Transit Connect, which I've seen showing up more frequently here in the US. In today's world, it's a realistic alternative to full-size vans used by tradespeople - many of whom don't really need that much space, and now want better fuel economy.


Meanwhile, my Windstar goes into the dealer next Monday for the rear axle and front subframe inspection. I'm hoping this goes smoothly...

Interesting....unfortunately my rear axle broke in half today while driving down the road. Waiting to see what Ford will do!