Multiple Unfixable Problems! charging/tranny/too lean/etc.
farns
12-27-2010, 11:27 AM
Good morning all, I'm new to the forum as a poster, but have been reading this and other forums off and on over the past 2 years, and they have been very very useful to me.
I'm chasing a herd of problems right now, for several months, and am really starting to lose my ability to think through all this. The more I read, the more frustrated I get at not understanding it.
[edited to add... 2002 Windstar, 150,000 miles, I think it's the 3.8li, but I don't know for sure.]
For two years now, we've had the ever-abundant 0171/0174 banks 1 and 2 too lean codes. We've taken it several places, and best we can get is about 2 months before it comes back, so we hurry and get emissions done then. Then it's right back again. But let's come back to this, it's the lesser of the 3 evils right now...
For several months, I have been dealing with "Check Charging System" and "Check Transmission" errors. They do not seem to be connected (meaning I don't have a charging system error and then immediately a tranny error). The tranny only throws errors every 20 minutes or so, while the check charging error pops up off an on, no pattern. Sometimes every couple minutes, sometimes once every 10 or so. Can't see a pattern. When CCS goes off, I lose the LCD message screen, and sometimes my dash lights, but I don't see any loss in power, I never lose my lights, there's nothing like a "brown out" as I would describe it. Does seem to happen more when it's cold first thing in the morning, but that's not always the case.
For the CCS error, I replaced the alternator with a new Remmy from autozone. Didn't fix it. The battery tested OK, but to rule it out we replaced it too. Didn't fix it. Autozone warrantied out the alternator and we tried a 2nd one. So new alternator and new battery in the same day. Still didn't fix it. It's not caused us any problems (like stalling out or can't start), but it's just annoying to have that thing going off all the time.
Now to the tranny. The tranny was a total rebuild 2 years ago when we first bought the van. This summer, on a road trip climbing some real steep hills, we got the check tranny message. Checked fluids, made some phone calls for advice, and then went on our way. Everything fine. Coming back from the trip, same thing, but then climbing the one last steep hill out of the valley, message changed to "tranny overheated". So we pulled off at the top, and sure enough, smoke or steam was coming out of the trans fluid nozzle there under the hood. Smelled like burned oil, was a bit nervous. Let it cool off, took it easy into the enxt town, and had a trans shop look at it. Codes said the torque converter was bad. He said we could keep it below 55 and drive the last hour home and deal with it at our own shop just fine, which we did. Our shop warrantied everything, and replaced the TC at no charge to us, so that's awesome.
Through the next few months, we saw no improvement. We'd still get the CT error, but never the overheating one... we took it back to the shop again and again and again, and they've replaced valves, a valve body, two more torque converters, and who knows what else. I know the last trip in they just said screw it and tore everything out, and put in a whole new tranny. Still behaves the same way, like nothing's been done. Everytime they've pulled it apart, they see no damage, no burned parts, no burned fluid, they can't see a thing wrong with it. They're into this probably 100 hours in labor, and who knows how many thousands in parts.
I thought maybe then a computer might be the issue, and causing both problems. I took it to ford dealership, and said the computer checks out fine, but they did see codes for the above transmission problems as well as the too lean engine codes. They told me they needed to fix both of those before they could see what else was wrong.
The bottom line is, none of these seem to be threatening the safety of the van, it appears that I'm not going to burn up the tranny at least, but I just don't know... is there a bigger problem here, and all these other things are just symptoms? I can't wrap my finger around the problem, and that's what's bugging me. And now I'm on the recall list for a potentially cracked axle, so on January 4th I'll find out about that I guess....
Anybody seen such a bevy of big problems all rolled in together like this?
Thanks!
Farns
I'm chasing a herd of problems right now, for several months, and am really starting to lose my ability to think through all this. The more I read, the more frustrated I get at not understanding it.
[edited to add... 2002 Windstar, 150,000 miles, I think it's the 3.8li, but I don't know for sure.]
For two years now, we've had the ever-abundant 0171/0174 banks 1 and 2 too lean codes. We've taken it several places, and best we can get is about 2 months before it comes back, so we hurry and get emissions done then. Then it's right back again. But let's come back to this, it's the lesser of the 3 evils right now...
For several months, I have been dealing with "Check Charging System" and "Check Transmission" errors. They do not seem to be connected (meaning I don't have a charging system error and then immediately a tranny error). The tranny only throws errors every 20 minutes or so, while the check charging error pops up off an on, no pattern. Sometimes every couple minutes, sometimes once every 10 or so. Can't see a pattern. When CCS goes off, I lose the LCD message screen, and sometimes my dash lights, but I don't see any loss in power, I never lose my lights, there's nothing like a "brown out" as I would describe it. Does seem to happen more when it's cold first thing in the morning, but that's not always the case.
For the CCS error, I replaced the alternator with a new Remmy from autozone. Didn't fix it. The battery tested OK, but to rule it out we replaced it too. Didn't fix it. Autozone warrantied out the alternator and we tried a 2nd one. So new alternator and new battery in the same day. Still didn't fix it. It's not caused us any problems (like stalling out or can't start), but it's just annoying to have that thing going off all the time.
Now to the tranny. The tranny was a total rebuild 2 years ago when we first bought the van. This summer, on a road trip climbing some real steep hills, we got the check tranny message. Checked fluids, made some phone calls for advice, and then went on our way. Everything fine. Coming back from the trip, same thing, but then climbing the one last steep hill out of the valley, message changed to "tranny overheated". So we pulled off at the top, and sure enough, smoke or steam was coming out of the trans fluid nozzle there under the hood. Smelled like burned oil, was a bit nervous. Let it cool off, took it easy into the enxt town, and had a trans shop look at it. Codes said the torque converter was bad. He said we could keep it below 55 and drive the last hour home and deal with it at our own shop just fine, which we did. Our shop warrantied everything, and replaced the TC at no charge to us, so that's awesome.
Through the next few months, we saw no improvement. We'd still get the CT error, but never the overheating one... we took it back to the shop again and again and again, and they've replaced valves, a valve body, two more torque converters, and who knows what else. I know the last trip in they just said screw it and tore everything out, and put in a whole new tranny. Still behaves the same way, like nothing's been done. Everytime they've pulled it apart, they see no damage, no burned parts, no burned fluid, they can't see a thing wrong with it. They're into this probably 100 hours in labor, and who knows how many thousands in parts.
I thought maybe then a computer might be the issue, and causing both problems. I took it to ford dealership, and said the computer checks out fine, but they did see codes for the above transmission problems as well as the too lean engine codes. They told me they needed to fix both of those before they could see what else was wrong.
The bottom line is, none of these seem to be threatening the safety of the van, it appears that I'm not going to burn up the tranny at least, but I just don't know... is there a bigger problem here, and all these other things are just symptoms? I can't wrap my finger around the problem, and that's what's bugging me. And now I'm on the recall list for a potentially cracked axle, so on January 4th I'll find out about that I guess....
Anybody seen such a bevy of big problems all rolled in together like this?
Thanks!
Farns
wiswind
12-27-2010, 03:51 PM
For the charging message, I would check all the connections.....at both ends of the battery cables.
Also check the ground connections and the connections on the power distribution box.
You might also look into the PCM power relay.
A low voltage going to the sensors and/or PCM can cause all kinds of strange problems.
I would look into the voltage issue FIRST.
Lean codes are most often caused by a vaccum leak.
One thing might be the isolator bolts for the upper intake manifold.
Check the hoses for the fuel pressure regulator and the PCV valve.
I would also verify the crankcase breather line that goes from the rear valve cover (1999 and newer) to the big flex hose that connects to the throttle body.
Also look over this flex hose that connects between the throttle body and the air filter box.
Also, I would look at the IMRC actuators, on the 1999 and newer, they use 1 electric actuator to drive the IMRC shafts.
There are nylon clips that connect the shafts to the actuator, these clips are known for breaking and/or falling off, leaving the actuator shafts to flop about at random.
Transmission, I am sure that the shop is reading the codes that are present when the transmission light comes on.
One thing that is a common failure item is the Transmission Range Sensor, aka Neutral Safety switch.
I would also ask the shop to verify that you have proper fluid flow through the transmission cooler.....it can become clogged when a transmission fails, causing the transmission to overheat due to lack of cooling.
Also check the ground connections and the connections on the power distribution box.
You might also look into the PCM power relay.
A low voltage going to the sensors and/or PCM can cause all kinds of strange problems.
I would look into the voltage issue FIRST.
Lean codes are most often caused by a vaccum leak.
One thing might be the isolator bolts for the upper intake manifold.
Check the hoses for the fuel pressure regulator and the PCV valve.
I would also verify the crankcase breather line that goes from the rear valve cover (1999 and newer) to the big flex hose that connects to the throttle body.
Also look over this flex hose that connects between the throttle body and the air filter box.
Also, I would look at the IMRC actuators, on the 1999 and newer, they use 1 electric actuator to drive the IMRC shafts.
There are nylon clips that connect the shafts to the actuator, these clips are known for breaking and/or falling off, leaving the actuator shafts to flop about at random.
Transmission, I am sure that the shop is reading the codes that are present when the transmission light comes on.
One thing that is a common failure item is the Transmission Range Sensor, aka Neutral Safety switch.
I would also ask the shop to verify that you have proper fluid flow through the transmission cooler.....it can become clogged when a transmission fails, causing the transmission to overheat due to lack of cooling.
farns
12-27-2010, 04:22 PM
We've been checking the wires with a voltmeter, and haven't found anything showing bad yet, but I found a post where they talked about checking all the fuses and stuff too, so I can study up on that and give it a try. I took it to an "electrical specialist" I was referred to, and he couldn't find anything wrong. Yet I get the warnings. So I keep going back to the computer in my mind.
What repair manual would you recommend to help me find these parts so I can test them? PCM, etc., I'm stepping way out of my comfort zone at this point, but I feel I need to try and understand the problem better, maybe I'm giving incomplete information to the mechanics, which is hindering their efforts.
I'll see what I can figure out on the vacuum leak as well. I've read tons about this, but haven't tried much because again it's out of my league. But perhaps with a good manual showing me where to poke and prod, I might have some luck.
One other quick question I have about the computer... There's more than one right? Like a main one, one for auxiliary systems, etc., isn't there? I mean, if it's a bad computer, I have to figure out which computer is bad right? Or is there just one?
I see lots of them on eBay, like this one: http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/2002-Ford-Windstar-Engine-Computer-ECU-PCM-00Z1-OEM-_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQhashZitem56418defc3QQitemZ37046 7008451QQptZMotorsQ5fCarQ5fTruckQ5fPartsQ5fAccesso ries
But they all look different, so I"m not sure what I"m looking at. I just wonder if it's worth $80 to try it out, or if its' even something a guy can just swap out like that. Anybody have thoughts on that?
What repair manual would you recommend to help me find these parts so I can test them? PCM, etc., I'm stepping way out of my comfort zone at this point, but I feel I need to try and understand the problem better, maybe I'm giving incomplete information to the mechanics, which is hindering their efforts.
I'll see what I can figure out on the vacuum leak as well. I've read tons about this, but haven't tried much because again it's out of my league. But perhaps with a good manual showing me where to poke and prod, I might have some luck.
One other quick question I have about the computer... There's more than one right? Like a main one, one for auxiliary systems, etc., isn't there? I mean, if it's a bad computer, I have to figure out which computer is bad right? Or is there just one?
I see lots of them on eBay, like this one: http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/2002-Ford-Windstar-Engine-Computer-ECU-PCM-00Z1-OEM-_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQhashZitem56418defc3QQitemZ37046 7008451QQptZMotorsQ5fCarQ5fTruckQ5fPartsQ5fAccesso ries
But they all look different, so I"m not sure what I"m looking at. I just wonder if it's worth $80 to try it out, or if its' even something a guy can just swap out like that. Anybody have thoughts on that?
mark_gober
12-28-2010, 03:14 PM
We've been checking the wires with a voltmeter, and haven't found anything showing bad yet, but I found a post where they talked about checking all the fuses and stuff too, so I can study up on that and give it a try. I took it to an "electrical specialist" I was referred to, and he couldn't find anything wrong. Yet I get the warnings. So I keep going back to the computer in my mind.
What repair manual would you recommend to help me find these parts so I can test them? PCM, etc., I'm stepping way out of my comfort zone at this point, but I feel I need to try and understand the problem better, maybe I'm giving incomplete information to the mechanics, which is hindering their efforts.
I'll see what I can figure out on the vacuum leak as well. I've read tons about this, but haven't tried much because again it's out of my league. But perhaps with a good manual showing me where to poke and prod, I might have some luck.
One other quick question I have about the computer... There's more than one right? Like a main one, one for auxiliary systems, etc., isn't there? I mean, if it's a bad computer, I have to figure out which computer is bad right? Or is there just one?
I see lots of them on eBay, like this one: http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/2002-Ford-Windstar-Engine-Computer-ECU-PCM-00Z1-OEM-_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQhashZitem56418defc3QQitemZ37046 7008451QQptZMotorsQ5fCarQ5fTruckQ5fPartsQ5fAccesso ries
But they all look different, so I"m not sure what I"m looking at. I just wonder if it's worth $80 to try it out, or if its' even something a guy can just swap out like that. Anybody have thoughts on that?
Your Windstar has three computers. One is the PCM. This is the main computer and runs the engine. You have a front electronics module and a rear electronics module. (FEM and REM). The FEM controls things like the front windows, radio, instrument panel, radio, door dinger, etc. The REM controls the fuel pump, the rear door hatch, the sliding door, heater etc. I believe the tranny and engine are completely controlled by the PCM.
Mark.
P.S. If you purchase a new computer, it'll have to be reflashed at the dealer. I looked into it for a friend of mines Dodge Caravan and Dodge dealership charged $90 for the reflash. With the strange issues you are having, it might be worth your $90 for a reflash. (or whatever Ford charges). With my friend, we went to autocomputerexchange.com and they shipped us a "ready to install" PCM for $150. I've looked for my Windstar, but they aren't listed on their website. You might call them and see if they have any for your car in stock. It was well worth it to just plug and play.
What repair manual would you recommend to help me find these parts so I can test them? PCM, etc., I'm stepping way out of my comfort zone at this point, but I feel I need to try and understand the problem better, maybe I'm giving incomplete information to the mechanics, which is hindering their efforts.
I'll see what I can figure out on the vacuum leak as well. I've read tons about this, but haven't tried much because again it's out of my league. But perhaps with a good manual showing me where to poke and prod, I might have some luck.
One other quick question I have about the computer... There's more than one right? Like a main one, one for auxiliary systems, etc., isn't there? I mean, if it's a bad computer, I have to figure out which computer is bad right? Or is there just one?
I see lots of them on eBay, like this one: http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/2002-Ford-Windstar-Engine-Computer-ECU-PCM-00Z1-OEM-_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQhashZitem56418defc3QQitemZ37046 7008451QQptZMotorsQ5fCarQ5fTruckQ5fPartsQ5fAccesso ries
But they all look different, so I"m not sure what I"m looking at. I just wonder if it's worth $80 to try it out, or if its' even something a guy can just swap out like that. Anybody have thoughts on that?
Your Windstar has three computers. One is the PCM. This is the main computer and runs the engine. You have a front electronics module and a rear electronics module. (FEM and REM). The FEM controls things like the front windows, radio, instrument panel, radio, door dinger, etc. The REM controls the fuel pump, the rear door hatch, the sliding door, heater etc. I believe the tranny and engine are completely controlled by the PCM.
Mark.
P.S. If you purchase a new computer, it'll have to be reflashed at the dealer. I looked into it for a friend of mines Dodge Caravan and Dodge dealership charged $90 for the reflash. With the strange issues you are having, it might be worth your $90 for a reflash. (or whatever Ford charges). With my friend, we went to autocomputerexchange.com and they shipped us a "ready to install" PCM for $150. I've looked for my Windstar, but they aren't listed on their website. You might call them and see if they have any for your car in stock. It was well worth it to just plug and play.
farns
12-28-2010, 05:16 PM
P.S. If you purchase a new computer, it'll have to be reflashed at the dealer. I looked into it for a friend of mines Dodge Caravan and Dodge dealership charged $90 for the reflash. With the strange issues you are having, it might be worth your $90 for a reflash. (or whatever Ford charges). With my friend, we went to autocomputerexchange.com and they shipped us a "ready to install" PCM for $150. I've looked for my Windstar, but they aren't listed on their website. You might call them and see if they have any for your car in stock. It was well worth it to just plug and play.
So to be clear, are you saying get my current one reflashed instead of replacing it? or just that if I buy a used one I'll need to get it reflashed. Is there a good way to confirm that the computer is the problem aside from just the feeling that I'm connecting the dots to that end? I took it to the dealer a month or two ago, asking them specifically to diagnose the computer, to see if it needed to be replaced, and they charged me $100 for a diagnostic, which told me absolutely nothing. They were getting hydraulic errors for the tranny, and said they couldn't look into anything else until that error was resolved. They seemed unwilling to do what I asked them to do, probably because they see a truckload of repair revenue sitting in that transmission. I dunno. I have trust issues LOL.
So to be clear, are you saying get my current one reflashed instead of replacing it? or just that if I buy a used one I'll need to get it reflashed. Is there a good way to confirm that the computer is the problem aside from just the feeling that I'm connecting the dots to that end? I took it to the dealer a month or two ago, asking them specifically to diagnose the computer, to see if it needed to be replaced, and they charged me $100 for a diagnostic, which told me absolutely nothing. They were getting hydraulic errors for the tranny, and said they couldn't look into anything else until that error was resolved. They seemed unwilling to do what I asked them to do, probably because they see a truckload of repair revenue sitting in that transmission. I dunno. I have trust issues LOL.
Franco2112
12-28-2010, 06:07 PM
Try this, it worked for my Ford Five Hundred. It was having transmission issues such as yours. Cleaned my throttle body using $10 throttle body cleaner and fixed the transmission issues. Your transmission and throttle body are very closely connected. Hope this helps.
Franco
Franco
serge_saati
12-28-2010, 07:42 PM
Ok... For the charging indicator symptom: If you have a steady ~14.4V on your battery when engine is running, alternator is ok, so it's either a problem with your PCM or your instrument cluster circuit.
For the "check transmission", what are the specific codes that Ford retreive? Maybe you just need to reset/erase the codes and see if it comes back. Or maybe it's a bad TFS (trans fluid sensor). They can test your TFS, it's easy to test that.
You cannot test the PCM by yourself, it's too complicated and need special tool. Only your dealer can do it. If they said it's good, then it should be.
For the lean codes, in addition of Wiswind's advices I add only bad upper (and or lower) intake gasket manifold as other possible cause especially if both codes didn't appear in same time. If they did, don't consider them as main culpirit.
Just to be more accurate, there's 12 computers in this van:
-PCM
-FEM
-REM
-Instrument cluster IC
-remote keyless entry module - optional
-ABS control module
-cruise control module - optional
-driver seat module - optional
-Parking Aid Module - optional
-left power sliding door module - optional
-right power sliding door module - optional
-RCM (restraint control module) or airbags module
But like Mark Gober saids, the PCM is the only one that controls engine and trans systems.
For the "check transmission", what are the specific codes that Ford retreive? Maybe you just need to reset/erase the codes and see if it comes back. Or maybe it's a bad TFS (trans fluid sensor). They can test your TFS, it's easy to test that.
You cannot test the PCM by yourself, it's too complicated and need special tool. Only your dealer can do it. If they said it's good, then it should be.
For the lean codes, in addition of Wiswind's advices I add only bad upper (and or lower) intake gasket manifold as other possible cause especially if both codes didn't appear in same time. If they did, don't consider them as main culpirit.
Just to be more accurate, there's 12 computers in this van:
-PCM
-FEM
-REM
-Instrument cluster IC
-remote keyless entry module - optional
-ABS control module
-cruise control module - optional
-driver seat module - optional
-Parking Aid Module - optional
-left power sliding door module - optional
-right power sliding door module - optional
-RCM (restraint control module) or airbags module
But like Mark Gober saids, the PCM is the only one that controls engine and trans systems.
mark_gober
12-28-2010, 10:22 PM
So to be clear, are you saying get my current one reflashed instead of replacing it? or just that if I buy a used one I'll need to get it reflashed. Is there a good way to confirm that the computer is the problem aside from just the feeling that I'm connecting the dots to that end? I took it to the dealer a month or two ago, asking them specifically to diagnose the computer, to see if it needed to be replaced, and they charged me $100 for a diagnostic, which told me absolutely nothing. They were getting hydraulic errors for the tranny, and said they couldn't look into anything else until that error was resolved. They seemed unwilling to do what I asked them to do, probably because they see a truckload of repair revenue sitting in that transmission. I dunno. I have trust issues LOL.
My point was that either way...buying a new one or having yours reflashed, you're going to pay the $90. (unless of course, autocomputerexchange has yours in stock.) I was simply thinking that I might spend $90 to have it reflashed before I dropped $500 on a new computer.
Trust me, I'm in a similar position with being unable to extract codes right now. I'm trying to figure out what path I'm going to take on my van because the inspection is due in about 6 weeks. If they can't connect to the PC, it'll never pass inspection.
Mark
My point was that either way...buying a new one or having yours reflashed, you're going to pay the $90. (unless of course, autocomputerexchange has yours in stock.) I was simply thinking that I might spend $90 to have it reflashed before I dropped $500 on a new computer.
Trust me, I'm in a similar position with being unable to extract codes right now. I'm trying to figure out what path I'm going to take on my van because the inspection is due in about 6 weeks. If they can't connect to the PC, it'll never pass inspection.
Mark
farns
01-05-2011, 02:32 PM
Well, quick update... got my axle looked at yesterday, and dang... it was good enough to fix. Oh well LOL.
I did find the report that the dealer gave me from before when I paid them to diagnose the computer. I guess they didn't diagnose it at all, from what I can tell on this...
loosely paraphrased it reads:
PCM codes are 1283, 0741, PCM reading speed sensors, values are out of range. Torque Convert is slipping due to hydraulic problem, could be stemming from solonoid, valve body, stator input shaft. Problem is hydraulic, not electrical. Also has string of codes for different modules that were not related to this issue.
So after this diagnosis, my tranny guy replaced the entire valve body, still had check transmission errors. Took it back, and they replace the entire tranny as I'm sure I mentioned above. Driving it home from that surgery, warning came on again.
Do I take it back to the dealer and demand that they diagnose what I paid them to diagnose? I asked them to look at the computer, but it was throwing tranny codes so they stopped there it seemed. And I don't know what all the string of other codes for other modules means.
Not really sure what to do. Sigh.....
I did find the report that the dealer gave me from before when I paid them to diagnose the computer. I guess they didn't diagnose it at all, from what I can tell on this...
loosely paraphrased it reads:
PCM codes are 1283, 0741, PCM reading speed sensors, values are out of range. Torque Convert is slipping due to hydraulic problem, could be stemming from solonoid, valve body, stator input shaft. Problem is hydraulic, not electrical. Also has string of codes for different modules that were not related to this issue.
So after this diagnosis, my tranny guy replaced the entire valve body, still had check transmission errors. Took it back, and they replace the entire tranny as I'm sure I mentioned above. Driving it home from that surgery, warning came on again.
Do I take it back to the dealer and demand that they diagnose what I paid them to diagnose? I asked them to look at the computer, but it was throwing tranny codes so they stopped there it seemed. And I don't know what all the string of other codes for other modules means.
Not really sure what to do. Sigh.....
serge_saati
01-05-2011, 05:17 PM
Ok if P0741 code and the Ford trans code (P1283) still stand, the transmission was not the issue. You really seem to have an issue with your PCM (computer).
Especially because you see string of other codes. When you see a lot of fuzzy codes thrown like crazy, it's mean that the PCM is bad. Come back to your dealer and ask a free replacement. If you discover that the old tranny was good, you can also pursuit Ford dealer in court if you wish.
A new PCM will probably also cure the charging indicator light symptom.
Especially because you see string of other codes. When you see a lot of fuzzy codes thrown like crazy, it's mean that the PCM is bad. Come back to your dealer and ask a free replacement. If you discover that the old tranny was good, you can also pursuit Ford dealer in court if you wish.
A new PCM will probably also cure the charging indicator light symptom.
farns
01-06-2011, 10:25 AM
See that's what I thought two months ago, was that the computer was wonky. Tranny might have never been the problem at all then, is what you're thinking? Just yesterday, the trans started slipping all over the place. It got scary for a couple minutes. But then it started behaving again.
So to clarify, you think I should look at replacing the PCM, not just getting it re-flashed?
Do you think that Ford would even consider doing either of those for free, when I didn't have the work on the tranny done there? I mean, how should I approach them about it? I did pay them $100 to diagnose it, and they didn't... but there should be some kind of test they can do to prove the computer's bad, right?
So to clarify, you think I should look at replacing the PCM, not just getting it re-flashed?
Do you think that Ford would even consider doing either of those for free, when I didn't have the work on the tranny done there? I mean, how should I approach them about it? I did pay them $100 to diagnose it, and they didn't... but there should be some kind of test they can do to prove the computer's bad, right?
serge_saati
01-06-2011, 10:54 AM
Ooops, sorry. I meant your trans shop, not Ford dealer.
Now because your trans has slipped yesterday, I would say that your new trans seems not good. Your trans shop should have take a look at it. And also replace the PCM. All for free. I think you have 2 issues.
Now because your trans has slipped yesterday, I would say that your new trans seems not good. Your trans shop should have take a look at it. And also replace the PCM. All for free. I think you have 2 issues.
farns
01-06-2011, 02:50 PM
Ok gotcha. I maybe didn't mention this before, but the trans shop rebuilt my tranny about 2 years ago, it died right after I bought the van. When I called them this summer when things started acting up, I was impressed that they serviced it, replaced the torque converter, and did a full flush, additive, everything for free. It was technically past the 1 year warranty by a considerable distance, but they made the decision to do it for free because they stand by their work. Well, that of course ended up not being the problem, so since then, they have had my van like 6 or 7 times, for several days at a time, sometimes over a week even. I've lost count. Each time they'd do more parts and more parts, until on this last one, they just pulled everything and put everything new on it. (I'm sure it's not NEW, but reman type stuff?? but I don't know for sure) He hasn't charged me a dime for any of it. I feel horrible, because they've torn it apart several times, they've got to be into it thousands of dollars in parts and labor now. And they've done it all for free. So I don't feel like I could ask them for anything, you know? I'm trying to work up the courage to tell them the new tranny didn't change anything at all. But I do need to call them today and let them know.
We love our van, it could/should last us a very long time, if we can get these gremlins taken care of.
We love our van, it could/should last us a very long time, if we can get these gremlins taken care of.
serge_saati
01-06-2011, 05:14 PM
I understand.
For this question:
So to clarify, you think I should look at replacing the PCM, not just getting it re-flashed?
You need to replace it, not reflash. I forget this one.
For this question:
So to clarify, you think I should look at replacing the PCM, not just getting it re-flashed?
You need to replace it, not reflash. I forget this one.
farns
01-07-2011, 09:22 AM
I called the local auto recyclers place up here that is like a junkyard, but they pull the parts and test them, and stock them on the shelves like a store. I've picked up a couple parts there for my F-150 and it's been pretty good, saved me a ton of money. He said they have PCMs, but that mine will have a number on it that he needs to tell me if he has the right one. I've looked under the hood, but can't see anything that looks like what I saw in the eBay picture I posted a few days ago... Does anybody have some pics (or could take some?) of their windstar, helping me locate the PCM? If I can buy a used one for a hudnred bucks and swap it myself, then I'm game to try it. But I was unclear about a previous response on this, something that made me think even if I bought a used one, that I"d still have to pay to have it reflashed. Is that accurate? I really really want to try dealing with the computer next, but don't have the money to do it through a dealer. Although I am going to call them today and find out how much it would cost, so I have a reference point to compare against.
tempfixit
01-07-2011, 09:50 AM
I called the local auto recyclers place up here that is like a junkyard, but they pull the parts and test them, and stock them on the shelves like a store. I've picked up a couple parts there for my F-150 and it's been pretty good, saved me a ton of money. He said they have PCMs, but that mine will have a number on it that he needs to tell me if he has the right one. I've looked under the hood, but can't see anything that looks like what I saw in the eBay picture I posted a few days ago... Does anybody have some pics (or could take some?) of their windstar, helping me locate the PCM? If I can buy a used one for a hudnred bucks and swap it myself, then I'm game to try it. But I was unclear about a previous response on this, something that made me think even if I bought a used one, that I"d still have to pay to have it reflashed. Is that accurate? I really really want to try dealing with the computer next, but don't have the money to do it through a dealer. Although I am going to call them today and find out how much it would cost, so I have a reference point to compare against.
Here is a link I found by google without any pics but says where PCM is.
http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Where_is_pcm_located_on_ford_windstar_sel_2002
Here is a link I found by google without any pics but says where PCM is.
http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Where_is_pcm_located_on_ford_windstar_sel_2002
mark_gober
01-08-2011, 02:10 AM
The PCM is located on the passenger side, up under the windshield wiper cowling and just behind the passenger side strut mount. It is visible with a flashlight without taking anything off. It won't look like any photo that you see because you'll only see the wiring harness going into it. The remainder of the PCM is inside the firewall.
In order to remove it, there is a 10mm bolt that holds the harness into the computer and two 12mm bolts (i think) that hold the computer into the firewall. In order to remove, you'll probably need to remove the wiper cowling...it'll make it much easier.
Having said that. In all of my days of working on cars, I've only seen one truly bad computer. I'm an electronics technician, by trade, and one thing I learned to do early was to make sure that I didn't buy cards/parts unnecessarily. Computers for cars are very expensive and absolutely REQUIRE reflashing. They will not work if you just plug in a good one from the junkyard because your PATS antitheft won't be the same. Trust me, I just did this in an attempt to fix a problem on my car. The fact that you have multiple bad codes doesn't mean you have a bad computer. Don't look at the sum total of the codes. Take a look at each code. I'd take my car to Autozone or anywhere that'll scan your codes for free (or you could by a cheap scanner for around $40) and pull the codes. Find out what they are and we'll go from there. Between you and me, I'd buy a scanner. Autozone will NOT clear your codes. (I have no idea why not, but they won't.) If you have a scanner, you can clear them and see if they come back. Entry level scanner will do that...no need for $400 device.
I don't want you to spend money unnecessarily. Have your codes scanned, post the results and we'll see if we can get you running again.
In order to remove it, there is a 10mm bolt that holds the harness into the computer and two 12mm bolts (i think) that hold the computer into the firewall. In order to remove, you'll probably need to remove the wiper cowling...it'll make it much easier.
Having said that. In all of my days of working on cars, I've only seen one truly bad computer. I'm an electronics technician, by trade, and one thing I learned to do early was to make sure that I didn't buy cards/parts unnecessarily. Computers for cars are very expensive and absolutely REQUIRE reflashing. They will not work if you just plug in a good one from the junkyard because your PATS antitheft won't be the same. Trust me, I just did this in an attempt to fix a problem on my car. The fact that you have multiple bad codes doesn't mean you have a bad computer. Don't look at the sum total of the codes. Take a look at each code. I'd take my car to Autozone or anywhere that'll scan your codes for free (or you could by a cheap scanner for around $40) and pull the codes. Find out what they are and we'll go from there. Between you and me, I'd buy a scanner. Autozone will NOT clear your codes. (I have no idea why not, but they won't.) If you have a scanner, you can clear them and see if they come back. Entry level scanner will do that...no need for $400 device.
I don't want you to spend money unnecessarily. Have your codes scanned, post the results and we'll see if we can get you running again.
farns
01-10-2011, 05:40 PM
Mark that sounds like good advice. Sorry it took me a while to respond, I didn't realize there was a page 2 on this thread already LOL. I kept refreshing the main page, and all I kept seeing was my last comment at the bottom. Yeah that makes me look all kinds of smart! hahaha
I'm not a huge fan of harbor freight, but I only have a harbor freight budget. Would this be sufficient?
OBDII is what I want, right? I see one at walmart.com for $45 and one at harborfreight.com for $60. Harbor freight one says it clears codes, but I don't see that mentioned on the walmart one (Equus 3030). But the walmart one can hook to your computer and has some online diagnostic features. Are you familiar with either one of these? I could get one ordered up right quick if you think either of these is the way to go.
Thank you for your input!
I'm not a huge fan of harbor freight, but I only have a harbor freight budget. Would this be sufficient?
OBDII is what I want, right? I see one at walmart.com for $45 and one at harborfreight.com for $60. Harbor freight one says it clears codes, but I don't see that mentioned on the walmart one (Equus 3030). But the walmart one can hook to your computer and has some online diagnostic features. Are you familiar with either one of these? I could get one ordered up right quick if you think either of these is the way to go.
Thank you for your input!
serge_saati
01-10-2011, 06:07 PM
It depands which Harbor freight model. But if it's a good Harbor freight model, it's better than Equus 3030.
Both clear code, but Equus 3030 doesn't read OEM Trans code nor ABS or airbags code.
Also it doesn't read O2 realtime data. So it's not that good for a Windstar.
Both clear code, but Equus 3030 doesn't read OEM Trans code nor ABS or airbags code.
Also it doesn't read O2 realtime data. So it's not that good for a Windstar.
mark_gober
01-10-2011, 08:43 PM
Mark that sounds like good advice. Sorry it took me a while to respond, I didn't realize there was a page 2 on this thread already LOL. I kept refreshing the main page, and all I kept seeing was my last comment at the bottom. Yeah that makes me look all kinds of smart! hahaha
I'm not a huge fan of harbor freight, but I only have a harbor freight budget. Would this be sufficient?
OBDII is what I want, right? I see one at walmart.com for $45 and one at harborfreight.com for $60. Harbor freight one says it clears codes, but I don't see that mentioned on the walmart one (Equus 3030). But the walmart one can hook to your computer and has some online diagnostic features. Are you familiar with either one of these? I could get one ordered up right quick if you think either of these is the way to go.
Thank you for your input!
Farns,
Yes, a OBDII scanner. As far as I know, EVERY scanner clears codes. Mine is the cheapest scanner Harbor Freight sells. Generally, I agree that Harbor Freight tools are crap, but the scanner I have works perfectly.
While they do have $200+ code scanners, I don't believe that they will pull tranny codes or ABS codes. (although admittedly, I've never used one, so I'm not speaking from experience) For ABS scanners, you'll need an ABS scanner. I do know that some of the higher end models offer data capture and review later from a PC.
My cheap $35 code scanner has always done what I needed it to do, which is retrieve and clear codes. Sure, I'd probably like to be able to view real time oxygen levels, but the computer will tell me whats wrong. I change a part, clear the code and pray it doesn't come back. :)
Mark
I'm not a huge fan of harbor freight, but I only have a harbor freight budget. Would this be sufficient?
OBDII is what I want, right? I see one at walmart.com for $45 and one at harborfreight.com for $60. Harbor freight one says it clears codes, but I don't see that mentioned on the walmart one (Equus 3030). But the walmart one can hook to your computer and has some online diagnostic features. Are you familiar with either one of these? I could get one ordered up right quick if you think either of these is the way to go.
Thank you for your input!
Farns,
Yes, a OBDII scanner. As far as I know, EVERY scanner clears codes. Mine is the cheapest scanner Harbor Freight sells. Generally, I agree that Harbor Freight tools are crap, but the scanner I have works perfectly.
While they do have $200+ code scanners, I don't believe that they will pull tranny codes or ABS codes. (although admittedly, I've never used one, so I'm not speaking from experience) For ABS scanners, you'll need an ABS scanner. I do know that some of the higher end models offer data capture and review later from a PC.
My cheap $35 code scanner has always done what I needed it to do, which is retrieve and clear codes. Sure, I'd probably like to be able to view real time oxygen levels, but the computer will tell me whats wrong. I change a part, clear the code and pray it doesn't come back. :)
Mark
farns
01-10-2011, 09:17 PM
sorry, this was the one I was looking at at HF:
http://www.harborfreight.com/can-obdii-code-reader-with-multilingual-menu-98568.html
Is this the one you have Mark?
So the more expensive you go, the more different components in the vehicle you can diagnose, correct? And unless I'm going to get a way expensive one (which I couldn't really do if I wanted to right now...) I can't get the tranny codes and all that anyway, right?
http://www.harborfreight.com/can-obdii-code-reader-with-multilingual-menu-98568.html
Is this the one you have Mark?
So the more expensive you go, the more different components in the vehicle you can diagnose, correct? And unless I'm going to get a way expensive one (which I couldn't really do if I wanted to right now...) I can't get the tranny codes and all that anyway, right?
serge_saati
01-10-2011, 09:36 PM
This code reader is VERY good. It shows data streams live, ABS, airbags, OE trans codes, advanced OBDII codes, freeze frames data, VIN... a lot of things. Read the manual pdf, it's very good.
The purpose of O2 data stream scanning is not to see if the O2 sensors are good or not, but to know if the mixture is too reach or too lean (which can indicate vacuum leak, MAF, fuel problem...). This scanner also monitor EGR, catalyst, EVAP... systems. Very useful on Windstar and Taurus.
The purpose of O2 data stream scanning is not to see if the O2 sensors are good or not, but to know if the mixture is too reach or too lean (which can indicate vacuum leak, MAF, fuel problem...). This scanner also monitor EGR, catalyst, EVAP... systems. Very useful on Windstar and Taurus.
mark_gober
01-10-2011, 11:44 PM
Farns,
That is similar to what I have. Although I purchased mine at harbor freight, it looks as though they don't have it any longer. I'll offer you a cheaper alternative to what you found. Go to amazon and search for the autel ms300. The currently have it for $19. That appears to be the exact model I have, but mine is branded centech. They are all Chinese knockoffs, but work great.
Serge, I'm not sure if you were referring to the scanner that he linked, but it does not scan ABS and other codes. I read the manual. The monitors are provided on all scanners that I've ever used. I've personally never used an obd scanner that also read ABS, but perhaps they do exist. The one thong that the linked scanner provided that mine didnt was the freeze frame data. That might be helpful, but if I were Farns, i'd buy the $20 scanner. (but I'm notoriously cheap)
Good luck, keep us posted.
That is similar to what I have. Although I purchased mine at harbor freight, it looks as though they don't have it any longer. I'll offer you a cheaper alternative to what you found. Go to amazon and search for the autel ms300. The currently have it for $19. That appears to be the exact model I have, but mine is branded centech. They are all Chinese knockoffs, but work great.
Serge, I'm not sure if you were referring to the scanner that he linked, but it does not scan ABS and other codes. I read the manual. The monitors are provided on all scanners that I've ever used. I've personally never used an obd scanner that also read ABS, but perhaps they do exist. The one thong that the linked scanner provided that mine didnt was the freeze frame data. That might be helpful, but if I were Farns, i'd buy the $20 scanner. (but I'm notoriously cheap)
Good luck, keep us posted.
mark_gober
01-10-2011, 11:47 PM
As a brief clarification, this scanner will pull any code that is stored in the PCM, which on windstars would include tranny codes, but not ABS codes. Hope that helps.
Mark
Mark
serge_saati
01-11-2011, 09:38 AM
Yes I was refering to the scanner that he linked (which is the same as Autel MaxiScan MS300).
If you read in manual the schematic above the section 2.3 at page 3, there's DTC for Systems B, C, P, U.
B is for body: airbags, safety belt, wiper, fuel sender, power mirror...
C is for Chassis: ABS, wheel sensor, traction control, air suspension...
P is for powertrain: engine, emission and trans.
U is for network: CANBUS, tire pressure module, fuel pump module, powertrain, audio system, compass... FOR 2005 and more car only. Doesn't work on Windstar (except few codes on 2002-2003).
At section 4.1 , page 15, it says that you can choose which detected module you want to see codes: Engine, trans, module XXX (which can be ABS module...).
If you read in manual the schematic above the section 2.3 at page 3, there's DTC for Systems B, C, P, U.
B is for body: airbags, safety belt, wiper, fuel sender, power mirror...
C is for Chassis: ABS, wheel sensor, traction control, air suspension...
P is for powertrain: engine, emission and trans.
U is for network: CANBUS, tire pressure module, fuel pump module, powertrain, audio system, compass... FOR 2005 and more car only. Doesn't work on Windstar (except few codes on 2002-2003).
At section 4.1 , page 15, it says that you can choose which detected module you want to see codes: Engine, trans, module XXX (which can be ABS module...).
farns
01-14-2011, 07:50 AM
Ok, had to wait for payday today, but I'm gonna go ahead and get the one from amazon, and I'm going to add an entry level voltmeter to the order, it will get me free shipping on the lot. So hopefully I'll have that sometime next week and can start troubleshooting! Thanks for your input on this guys, I'll check back in a few days with some codes to post! Thanks!
farns
01-19-2011, 06:17 AM
oh snap! My scanner arrived yesterday! I just ordered it over the weekend, and there was a Sunday and a postal holiday on monday! That's amazing I'm gonna take it to work this morning and read through instructions to get it figured out, and then tonight after work I'm gonna start seeing what's up!! Stay tuned for some exciting codes LOL!!
farns
01-19-2011, 06:52 PM
Well, that felt largely unproductive. It went through all the 5 different scans, and only came up with the two engine too lean codes that we've always had, 071/074 or whatever it is.... I cleared them, thinking that maybe you had to clear past one to get to the next section. Nothing about the tranny or the electrical. So I'm wondering what to do next. Is it possible to scan while it's on and driving? That's when we get all the errors... What should I do next guys? Thanks in advance!
serge_saati
01-19-2011, 07:20 PM
No, it's pointless to try to read code while driving, it'll not work.
When you clear codes with a code reader, it erases ALL "P" codes in the system and reset the monitors.
Some simple code readers require to turn off and turn on again your ignition to access next section of codes, but if you used the rescan data, you don't need to. But when you clear, it's over. You can't read code.
I just realized after you ordered the tool that your MS300 is not the same as Harbor Freight Cen-Tech 98568. The MS310 was the equivalent from Autel. I got the wrong info from a website also.
The MS300 doesn't scan the advanced manufacturer trans codes. It scan only generic and most of manufacturer engines codes and generic trans codes.
When you clear codes with a code reader, it erases ALL "P" codes in the system and reset the monitors.
Some simple code readers require to turn off and turn on again your ignition to access next section of codes, but if you used the rescan data, you don't need to. But when you clear, it's over. You can't read code.
I just realized after you ordered the tool that your MS300 is not the same as Harbor Freight Cen-Tech 98568. The MS310 was the equivalent from Autel. I got the wrong info from a website also.
The MS300 doesn't scan the advanced manufacturer trans codes. It scan only generic and most of manufacturer engines codes and generic trans codes.
farns
01-19-2011, 10:05 PM
CRAP.... so this thing is pretty much useless? I was hoping to start sifting through the "tons of codes coming out of the PCM" that Ford mentioned. Can't do a thing with this???
mark_gober
01-20-2011, 02:14 AM
CRAP.... so this thing is pretty much useless? I was hoping to start sifting through the "tons of codes coming out of the PCM" that Ford mentioned. Can't do a thing with this???
Farns,
Not to be too argumentative here, but you can pull codes while the engine is running. I've done it countless times. I've even pulled/cleared codes while I was driving down the road. The code scanner is a little slower, but it does do it. I'm not sure the advisability of it, but just from experience, it does work.
Having said that, if your car had thrown a code, it'd still be in the history. You can keep it with you and scan it when it starts acting up if you'd like. I hope you get some direction on this problem.
Mark
Farns,
Not to be too argumentative here, but you can pull codes while the engine is running. I've done it countless times. I've even pulled/cleared codes while I was driving down the road. The code scanner is a little slower, but it does do it. I'm not sure the advisability of it, but just from experience, it does work.
Having said that, if your car had thrown a code, it'd still be in the history. You can keep it with you and scan it when it starts acting up if you'd like. I hope you get some direction on this problem.
Mark
serge_saati
01-20-2011, 09:48 AM
Did you remember which types of codes were the string of codes that Ford mentions?
It it was for the powertrain "P codes" you can pull the other codes with a better scanner (like MS310) when they will come back. Along with your 2 OEM trans codes.
But if it was body or chassis codes (B or C codes) you need a very top professional scanner tool (like the MaxiDAS DS708) for that, although it mention in MS300 OM these types of codes, your tool couldn't read them.
Anyway, B or C codes don't affect engine and transmission and will not affect the performances or problems with them.
It it was for the powertrain "P codes" you can pull the other codes with a better scanner (like MS310) when they will come back. Along with your 2 OEM trans codes.
But if it was body or chassis codes (B or C codes) you need a very top professional scanner tool (like the MaxiDAS DS708) for that, although it mention in MS300 OM these types of codes, your tool couldn't read them.
Anyway, B or C codes don't affect engine and transmission and will not affect the performances or problems with them.
farns
01-20-2011, 06:38 PM
I don't know what the codes were, they were just a "string of codes for different modules". I was hoping this scanner would reveal that.
PCM codes are 1283, 0741, PCM reading speed sensors, values are out of range. Torque Convert is slipping due to hydraulic problem, could be stemming from solonoid, valve body, stator input shaft. Problem is hydraulic, not electrical. Also has string of codes for different modules that were not related to this issue.
The other approach I am wanting to take, and perhaps you guys can help me with this too... I went ahead and picked up a voltmeter as well. In trying to figure out the power fluxuations, the guy at Autozone said to check these several different combinations of points, to see if there was a drop in voltage. That was over a month ago, I don't remember where all he said. And I've never used a voltmeter, so any tips you guys can give me on that would be great. We get the check charging system error all the time, pretty much anytime the car is running, it can happen. Some days it's more than others.
On yet another side note, on Tuesday the tranny was slipping and seeking all over the place. We pulled over, turned it off, turned it back on, and it ran fine. UG! Does that help identify anything?
PCM codes are 1283, 0741, PCM reading speed sensors, values are out of range. Torque Convert is slipping due to hydraulic problem, could be stemming from solonoid, valve body, stator input shaft. Problem is hydraulic, not electrical. Also has string of codes for different modules that were not related to this issue.
The other approach I am wanting to take, and perhaps you guys can help me with this too... I went ahead and picked up a voltmeter as well. In trying to figure out the power fluxuations, the guy at Autozone said to check these several different combinations of points, to see if there was a drop in voltage. That was over a month ago, I don't remember where all he said. And I've never used a voltmeter, so any tips you guys can give me on that would be great. We get the check charging system error all the time, pretty much anytime the car is running, it can happen. Some days it's more than others.
On yet another side note, on Tuesday the tranny was slipping and seeking all over the place. We pulled over, turned it off, turned it back on, and it ran fine. UG! Does that help identify anything?
serge_saati
01-20-2011, 06:49 PM
Yes it does. Trans slipping is never caused by electrical or sensors problem. It's always mechanical. If fluid level is good, it's an internal problem with trans. Although you have a code for the speed sensor, it's not linked. VSS problems could cause late shifting or too much downshift, but not slipping.
If you want to check charging system, test voltage on battery or B+ of alternator (it's same thing), it should be a steady 14-14.7V. If it's regulation is ok, you can test voltage at wires that go to PCM in instrument cluster.
Test in 20VDC range of multimeter. If it's autorange, chose just DCV range.
If you want to check charging system, test voltage on battery or B+ of alternator (it's same thing), it should be a steady 14-14.7V. If it's regulation is ok, you can test voltage at wires that go to PCM in instrument cluster.
Test in 20VDC range of multimeter. If it's autorange, chose just DCV range.
farns
02-01-2011, 08:36 PM
Finally got a chance to spend a little time under the hood with the voltmeter. I re-read your post and realized I didn't really understand what you were saying. I followed the positive wire to the alternator. I touched the red probe to that bolt, and the black probe to the negative post on the battery, and read 14.something volts. At that point I realized I really need to learn more about what I'm looking at to know what I am even doing.
I've tried several times to identify the PCM under there, but I really don't know what I'm looking for. I've googled pictures to help me, but no luck. I really need to get a service repair manual, but they're quite expensive and we're just struggling to find two nickles to rub together these days.
The trans still slips, but only once every several drives. But when it does slip, it slips all over. And I guess to be clear, perhaps it's not the trans slipping, perhaps it's just losing power sporatically, I'm not sure I can really tell the difference.
4 different mechanics have looked into this and have come up with nothing, I don't know why I thought I'd be able to do any different... :(
I've tried several times to identify the PCM under there, but I really don't know what I'm looking for. I've googled pictures to help me, but no luck. I really need to get a service repair manual, but they're quite expensive and we're just struggling to find two nickles to rub together these days.
The trans still slips, but only once every several drives. But when it does slip, it slips all over. And I guess to be clear, perhaps it's not the trans slipping, perhaps it's just losing power sporatically, I'm not sure I can really tell the difference.
4 different mechanics have looked into this and have come up with nothing, I don't know why I thought I'd be able to do any different... :(
mark_gober
02-01-2011, 08:42 PM
Finally got a chance to spend a little time under the hood with the voltmeter. I re-read your post and realized I didn't really understand what you were saying. I followed the positive wire to the alternator. I touched the red probe to that bolt, and the black probe to the negative post on the battery, and read 14.something volts. At that point I realized I really need to learn more about what I'm looking at to know what I am even doing.
I've tried several times to identify the PCM under there, but I really don't know what I'm looking for. I've googled pictures to help me, but no luck. I really need to get a service repair manual, but they're quite expensive and we're just struggling to find two nickles to rub together these days.
The trans still slips, but only once every several drives. But when it does slip, it slips all over. And I guess to be clear, perhaps it's not the trans slipping, perhaps it's just losing power sporatically, I'm not sure I can really tell the difference.
4 different mechanics have looked into this and have come up with nothing, I don't know why I thought I'd be able to do any different... :(
I know its not the answer to all of your questions, but the PCM is pretty easy to find. Just go to the passenger side fender and open the hood. It sits under the black plastic windshield wiper cowl. There is a rather large connector going into it. That connector has probably 100+wires and is large and rectangular. 80-90% of the PCM resides behind the firewall. The only part you can see is the front of it and the connector.
Mark
I've tried several times to identify the PCM under there, but I really don't know what I'm looking for. I've googled pictures to help me, but no luck. I really need to get a service repair manual, but they're quite expensive and we're just struggling to find two nickles to rub together these days.
The trans still slips, but only once every several drives. But when it does slip, it slips all over. And I guess to be clear, perhaps it's not the trans slipping, perhaps it's just losing power sporatically, I'm not sure I can really tell the difference.
4 different mechanics have looked into this and have come up with nothing, I don't know why I thought I'd be able to do any different... :(
I know its not the answer to all of your questions, but the PCM is pretty easy to find. Just go to the passenger side fender and open the hood. It sits under the black plastic windshield wiper cowl. There is a rather large connector going into it. That connector has probably 100+wires and is large and rectangular. 80-90% of the PCM resides behind the firewall. The only part you can see is the front of it and the connector.
Mark
serge_saati
02-01-2011, 10:05 PM
You do it great. 14V, so your alternator is good. Charging problem light is not caused by alternator, but something related to wiring that go to PCM or PCM doesn't measuring voltage correctly or the instrument cluster grounds the bulb all the time, nothing very important.
To distinguish a sleeping transmission and lack of power is easy. Sleeping transmission is the same effect as when you drive a manual car w/o releasing the clutch completely. So engine rpm goes up but car moves very slowly.
In 1st gear, van goes at ~7.5mph for each 1000 rpm. At 3000 rpm it should go at 22.5 mph.
So if van goes less that ~22.5 mph at 3000 rpm in 1st gear, the trans is slipping.
When you lack of power, both rpm and speed increase slowly but at constant speed/rpm ratio.
To distinguish a sleeping transmission and lack of power is easy. Sleeping transmission is the same effect as when you drive a manual car w/o releasing the clutch completely. So engine rpm goes up but car moves very slowly.
In 1st gear, van goes at ~7.5mph for each 1000 rpm. At 3000 rpm it should go at 22.5 mph.
So if van goes less that ~22.5 mph at 3000 rpm in 1st gear, the trans is slipping.
When you lack of power, both rpm and speed increase slowly but at constant speed/rpm ratio.
farns
02-02-2011, 06:52 AM
ok, that makes sense. We will watch the tach and see what the RMPs do next time around. Thank you for the advice. I do believe there is a real problem, not just a bulb grounding out, because we've had so many issues that appear to be power related. When the "check charging system" message appears, often half the lights on the dash go out. Never the spedeomteter, never the radio - they never seem to lose power. But sometimes the AC / Heater fans will lose power, and the Error Message Screen will go out. We have seen the headlights flutter, but they've gone all the way out.
One time, I almost backed into a car, because the sonar wasn't working.
Yesterday, the airbag light came on, and stayed lit. The code read I bought told me absolutely nothing about it.
One time, I almost backed into a car, because the sonar wasn't working.
Yesterday, the airbag light came on, and stayed lit. The code read I bought told me absolutely nothing about it.
serge_saati
02-02-2011, 04:04 PM
For charging system, check ground wires that go to PCM and everywhere else. And the ground alternator bolts and case for good continuity with GND. And good continuity from alternator to power fuse box. There could be rust under the power fuse box terminals. If PCM doesn't get proper ground or B+ input, it will display the warning.
You MS300 can't scan ABS or airbags code. Only high end scanner model can do it.
You MS300 can't scan ABS or airbags code. Only high end scanner model can do it.
farns
02-03-2011, 07:31 PM
Yep, when the "slipping" occurs, the tach spikes about 2000 rpm. I just pops for a second, then returns to normal. My wife SWEARS it only happens after she's driven a few miles, puts it in park, then starts driving again. Like when she picks me up from work. 4 mile drive, puts it in park while I come out to the van, then as soon as we start driving, it has issues. Never on the drive to get to my shop.
In other news, she wants me to buy the correct scanner so we can work through all these codes like you guys suggested. So the golden question is, what do I buy? Did we come to the conclusion that the $60 one from Harbor Freight would read all the codes my Amazon.com one cannot? Anybody wanna buy an Amazon.com code reader? LOL.
Help me know for sure which one I should buy please, I don't want to make the same mistake twice.
Thanks!
farns
In other news, she wants me to buy the correct scanner so we can work through all these codes like you guys suggested. So the golden question is, what do I buy? Did we come to the conclusion that the $60 one from Harbor Freight would read all the codes my Amazon.com one cannot? Anybody wanna buy an Amazon.com code reader? LOL.
Help me know for sure which one I should buy please, I don't want to make the same mistake twice.
Thanks!
farns
serge_saati
02-03-2011, 08:54 PM
Trans slippage is NEVER caused by electric problems (no bad trans solenoids or bad sensors). It's always mechanical or hydraulic. I'm sure your new remanufactured transaxle is bad. Probably worn clutch bands or low hydraulic pressure in 1st gear piston clutch's line. Or bad 1st gear hydraulic accumulator (very rare).
So scanning codes will tell you nothing relevant about this problem. Trans need to be replaced again to fix that.
You had the transaxle warning messages before servicing and replaced the transmission. I think theses trans codes and message have something to do with your charging light. Maybe a bad ground contact somewhere, so PCM receives incorrect voltage signal and throw false codes, but it has nothing to do with trans slippage anyway. It's something else.
If you still want the good scanner, I suggest you the MS509. This one is very good.
You can find it at eBay: http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/MS509-code-reader-can-bus-MaxiScan-OBDII-EOBD-Scan-tool-/110644177595?pt=Motors_Automotive_Tools&hash=item19c2e82abb
It normally worth 85$ and more, but there's good deals on eBay.
Little Harbor Freight tool or MS310 are also good to scan trans codes, but don't have graph capability and advanced O2 testing... etc.
However, neither of them (MS509 include) will display body nor chassis codes, but only P and U codes. Only 1000$+ scan tools can scan B and C codes.
So scanning codes will tell you nothing relevant about this problem. Trans need to be replaced again to fix that.
You had the transaxle warning messages before servicing and replaced the transmission. I think theses trans codes and message have something to do with your charging light. Maybe a bad ground contact somewhere, so PCM receives incorrect voltage signal and throw false codes, but it has nothing to do with trans slippage anyway. It's something else.
If you still want the good scanner, I suggest you the MS509. This one is very good.
You can find it at eBay: http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/MS509-code-reader-can-bus-MaxiScan-OBDII-EOBD-Scan-tool-/110644177595?pt=Motors_Automotive_Tools&hash=item19c2e82abb
It normally worth 85$ and more, but there's good deals on eBay.
Little Harbor Freight tool or MS310 are also good to scan trans codes, but don't have graph capability and advanced O2 testing... etc.
However, neither of them (MS509 include) will display body nor chassis codes, but only P and U codes. Only 1000$+ scan tools can scan B and C codes.
farns
02-05-2011, 05:54 PM
ok, was fortunate enough today to catch the van throwing the "check charging system" error while I was working on it, and I was able to get my voltmeter on it in time before the error went away. Normally, I get the 14-14.5v range off my battery posts, and off the alternator (testing the place where the battery positive wire connects to the alternator). While I was testing these areas, watching the meter, suddenly it spiked to over 16 volts. I checked the dash, and sure enough the error was one. It cleared a moment later and the volts were back into the 14v range.
All this time I was thinking the voltage was dropping, but I guess it is spiking?
Is there something called a Voltage Regulator in my van? Is that something I should be looking at?
I also checked the connection going from the battery positive to the fusebox. Everything looks nice and clean, no corrosion, no visible issues.
All this time I was thinking the voltage was dropping, but I guess it is spiking?
Is there something called a Voltage Regulator in my van? Is that something I should be looking at?
I also checked the connection going from the battery positive to the fusebox. Everything looks nice and clean, no corrosion, no visible issues.
olopezm
02-05-2011, 07:02 PM
Hi there,
I'm sorry to hear you are having so many problems. Hopefully you will work it out soon, as you can see there are many great users in this forum.
Your alternator DOES have a voltage regulator and can cause the voltage to go up too much, If this condition exist for a long time you battery will get damaged or won't last long. If the alternator doesn't detects the expected load (like disconnecting you battery while the engine is running) it will work at maximum rate causing the voltage to go up.
Make sure both of the battery cables and terminals (positive and negative) are in good shape and making good contact, the corrosion does not necessarily is visible. The cables can rot from the inside out. So check with your voltmeter for resistance at each cable, the value you should be expecting MUST be the closest as possible to 0 ohms.
Best regards,
Oscar.
I'm sorry to hear you are having so many problems. Hopefully you will work it out soon, as you can see there are many great users in this forum.
Your alternator DOES have a voltage regulator and can cause the voltage to go up too much, If this condition exist for a long time you battery will get damaged or won't last long. If the alternator doesn't detects the expected load (like disconnecting you battery while the engine is running) it will work at maximum rate causing the voltage to go up.
Make sure both of the battery cables and terminals (positive and negative) are in good shape and making good contact, the corrosion does not necessarily is visible. The cables can rot from the inside out. So check with your voltmeter for resistance at each cable, the value you should be expecting MUST be the closest as possible to 0 ohms.
Best regards,
Oscar.
farns
02-07-2011, 04:23 PM
So the voltage regulator is part of the alternator itself? I'm on my 3rd alternator with this problem, so is it likely that it is the problem?
Can you walk me through how you test the cables as you mentioned? I'm really new with the voltmeter, and need it explained really well.
Can you walk me through how you test the cables as you mentioned? I'm really new with the voltmeter, and need it explained really well.
olopezm
02-07-2011, 05:36 PM
So the voltage regulator is part of the alternator itself? I'm on my 3rd alternator with this problem, so is it likely that it is the problem?
That's correct the regulator is inside the alternator. I can't be sure if that's the problem. You mention this is your third alternator, have you found the specific cause on why the others failed or you just kept replacing them?. If you are not sure on what happened with the others, other than normal wear, then this could be a clear indicator of another problem going on.
Can you walk me through how you test the cables as you mentioned? I'm really new with the voltmeter, and need it explained really well.
Sure!.
You need to set your voltmeter to measure resistance (Ω "omega symbol"), use the lowest possible scale (0-10,0-100 ohms) and put each probe of the voltmeter (also referred as DMM) at each end of the cable/wire.
In terms of resistance the lowest the value the better; and a bigger value can range from bad connections to a broken cable (called open circuit condition or infinite resistance). You can increase the scale on the DMM one at a time, if you've reached the highest scale and your DMM still shows '1' that's an indicator of an open circuit.
Here's a small diagram:
Red probe -> wire <- black probe
l------------DMM----------l
Best regards,
Oscar.
That's correct the regulator is inside the alternator. I can't be sure if that's the problem. You mention this is your third alternator, have you found the specific cause on why the others failed or you just kept replacing them?. If you are not sure on what happened with the others, other than normal wear, then this could be a clear indicator of another problem going on.
Can you walk me through how you test the cables as you mentioned? I'm really new with the voltmeter, and need it explained really well.
Sure!.
You need to set your voltmeter to measure resistance (Ω "omega symbol"), use the lowest possible scale (0-10,0-100 ohms) and put each probe of the voltmeter (also referred as DMM) at each end of the cable/wire.
In terms of resistance the lowest the value the better; and a bigger value can range from bad connections to a broken cable (called open circuit condition or infinite resistance). You can increase the scale on the DMM one at a time, if you've reached the highest scale and your DMM still shows '1' that's an indicator of an open circuit.
Here's a small diagram:
Red probe -> wire <- black probe
l------------DMM----------l
Best regards,
Oscar.
mark_gober
02-08-2011, 10:02 AM
Yep, when the "slipping" occurs, the tach spikes about 2000 rpm. I just pops for a second, then returns to normal. My wife SWEARS it only happens after she's driven a few miles, puts it in park, then starts driving again. Like when she picks me up from work. 4 mile drive, puts it in park while I come out to the van, then as soon as we start driving, it has issues. Never on the drive to get to my shop.
In other news, she wants me to buy the correct scanner so we can work through all these codes like you guys suggested. So the golden question is, what do I buy? Did we come to the conclusion that the $60 one from Harbor Freight would read all the codes my Amazon.com one cannot? Anybody wanna buy an Amazon.com code reader? LOL.
Help me know for sure which one I should buy please, I don't want to make the same mistake twice.
Thanks!
farns
Farns,
I'm just throwing it out there, but you should attempt to return your code scanner to Amazon. Just put in there that it doesn't read all the codes you need read. Even if you have to pay shipping back, I wouldn't eat the cost on that.
I hate that you had to spend money on the code scanner that didn't work. I'm not being petty here, but it's frustrating when people on these forums give bum advice and it costs you money. On the issue of what you want to buy. If you're looking for really top of the line model, you need one that does freeze frame data and live data views. It's been my history that such devices can run into the $150+ range. Once again, I'll reiterate what I said earlier. I have not seen an OBD scanner that can extract ABS codes. Perhaps they do exist and admittedly, I've only used about 7 different ones, but none of them have ever been able to extract ABS codes.
I just re-read some of the more recent posts. On your voltage spiking, that is almost certainly the voltage regulator. That is the only device responsible for keeping your voltage to the nominal 14-14.5 volt range. Without a voltage regulator, the the faster your alternator spins, the higher the voltage would go. The V.R. turns that additional power into more current, not more voltage. I do believe that the voltage regulator on the windstar is integral to the alternator. I'm not sure when the last time you had it swapped, but it may still be under warranty. Rockauto.com does sell a voltage regulator, but it's $56. It appears that you can remove the back casing off of the alternator and swap the voltage regulator. (its the device that the connector is attached to.) Having said that, I'd just swap the alternator because they come with new voltage regulators.
Hopefully you'll get this ironed out. I know how frustrating multiple codes can be (not to mention intermittent faults).
Mark
In other news, she wants me to buy the correct scanner so we can work through all these codes like you guys suggested. So the golden question is, what do I buy? Did we come to the conclusion that the $60 one from Harbor Freight would read all the codes my Amazon.com one cannot? Anybody wanna buy an Amazon.com code reader? LOL.
Help me know for sure which one I should buy please, I don't want to make the same mistake twice.
Thanks!
farns
Farns,
I'm just throwing it out there, but you should attempt to return your code scanner to Amazon. Just put in there that it doesn't read all the codes you need read. Even if you have to pay shipping back, I wouldn't eat the cost on that.
I hate that you had to spend money on the code scanner that didn't work. I'm not being petty here, but it's frustrating when people on these forums give bum advice and it costs you money. On the issue of what you want to buy. If you're looking for really top of the line model, you need one that does freeze frame data and live data views. It's been my history that such devices can run into the $150+ range. Once again, I'll reiterate what I said earlier. I have not seen an OBD scanner that can extract ABS codes. Perhaps they do exist and admittedly, I've only used about 7 different ones, but none of them have ever been able to extract ABS codes.
I just re-read some of the more recent posts. On your voltage spiking, that is almost certainly the voltage regulator. That is the only device responsible for keeping your voltage to the nominal 14-14.5 volt range. Without a voltage regulator, the the faster your alternator spins, the higher the voltage would go. The V.R. turns that additional power into more current, not more voltage. I do believe that the voltage regulator on the windstar is integral to the alternator. I'm not sure when the last time you had it swapped, but it may still be under warranty. Rockauto.com does sell a voltage regulator, but it's $56. It appears that you can remove the back casing off of the alternator and swap the voltage regulator. (its the device that the connector is attached to.) Having said that, I'd just swap the alternator because they come with new voltage regulators.
Hopefully you'll get this ironed out. I know how frustrating multiple codes can be (not to mention intermittent faults).
Mark
farns
02-08-2011, 04:41 PM
Thank you for that explanation. I will try that in the next evening or two as I have some time and daylight.
As to the alternator, the first one died (and I believe it truly was dead) several months ago. We had the "check charging system" error like three times over the course of two days, and bam. It was shot. Died on us in the middle of a busy road, and we had to tow it home. Autozone checked it out and said it was dead. Bought a new one from autozone, and continued to have "check charging system" errors, but never lost power, never have any actual problems, just the gremlin warnings here and there. In further checking into it, we discovered the batter was failing, and was about 8 years old. So we replaced that a couple months ago. Still get the "check charging system" error. And I mean, we get it a lot. Like 5-10 times in a 20 minute drive. On and off, on and off. So we went back to Autozone, and they tested the alternator, said it was bad. So they warranty swapped it for free. On the 2 mile ride home from autozone, "CCS". It's all the time. Only this past weekend did I discover that the voltage is going up, when all I long I figured it was dropping out.
I'd really love to get to the bottom of this. Taken it to two or three places for diagnostic, and they can't tell me anything. Striking out all over the place. :(
As to the alternator, the first one died (and I believe it truly was dead) several months ago. We had the "check charging system" error like three times over the course of two days, and bam. It was shot. Died on us in the middle of a busy road, and we had to tow it home. Autozone checked it out and said it was dead. Bought a new one from autozone, and continued to have "check charging system" errors, but never lost power, never have any actual problems, just the gremlin warnings here and there. In further checking into it, we discovered the batter was failing, and was about 8 years old. So we replaced that a couple months ago. Still get the "check charging system" error. And I mean, we get it a lot. Like 5-10 times in a 20 minute drive. On and off, on and off. So we went back to Autozone, and they tested the alternator, said it was bad. So they warranty swapped it for free. On the 2 mile ride home from autozone, "CCS". It's all the time. Only this past weekend did I discover that the voltage is going up, when all I long I figured it was dropping out.
I'd really love to get to the bottom of this. Taken it to two or three places for diagnostic, and they can't tell me anything. Striking out all over the place. :(
serge_saati
02-09-2011, 05:28 PM
I hate that you had to spend money on the code scanner that didn't work. I'm not being petty here, but it's frustrating when people on these forums give bum advice and it costs you money. On the issue of what you want to buy. If you're looking for really top of the line model, you need one that does freeze frame data and live data views. It's been my history that such devices can run into the $150+ range. Once again, I'll reiterate what I said earlier. I have not seen an OBD scanner that can extract ABS codes. Perhaps they do exist and admittedly, I've only used about 7 different ones, but none of them have ever been able to extract ABS codes.
I didn't say that he absolutely needs to buy the MS509 at 50$ from ebay to read the VSS and Torque converter slipping codes. A MS310 (or HB Cen-Tech 98568) - that roughly cost the same - can also do the trick. But the MS509 has in addition advanced diagnosis functions like data stream graph and advanced O2 testing that can be very benefit for further problems diagnosis and save many hundreds 100$ in future. As Windstar is a lemon, it's a must for it.
Here's more infos about MS509: http://www.auteltech.com/ms509.htm
As for ABS testing, the MS509 can't read it. I just misread the document last time. But MS609 can read ABS codes. Check here: http://www.auteltech.com/ms609.htm.
The problem is that it's an endangered device. It's very hard to find it and cost much more.
There's also tool that can read ABS + airbags codes: http://www.auteltech.com/aa101.htm but cost about 330$.
There's also tool that can read codes from all modules, including cruise control, REM and FEM. Like errors for safety belt, traction control, air suspension... like this one: http://www.auteltech.com/ds708.htm that cost about 1000$.
farns said that Ford pulled string of codes for many different modules. So a scanner under 1000$ will not pull theses string of codes, but the 2 trans codes.
Anyway, they probably are all caused by unstable supply voltage. So no scanners in the world will resolve this issue like I said in my last posts.
Neither the trans hydraulic problem. I just mention the MS509 as a good choice information, not to make the diagnosis.
About intermittent high voltage charging system problem, it could also be caused by bad battery connection, bad contacts in under hood or indoor fuse boxes' wires, or somewhere else. When resistance increases, alternator's regulator output voltage increases. Like Oscar suggested. Because it's a switching regulator system made with inductive coils.
I didn't say that he absolutely needs to buy the MS509 at 50$ from ebay to read the VSS and Torque converter slipping codes. A MS310 (or HB Cen-Tech 98568) - that roughly cost the same - can also do the trick. But the MS509 has in addition advanced diagnosis functions like data stream graph and advanced O2 testing that can be very benefit for further problems diagnosis and save many hundreds 100$ in future. As Windstar is a lemon, it's a must for it.
Here's more infos about MS509: http://www.auteltech.com/ms509.htm
As for ABS testing, the MS509 can't read it. I just misread the document last time. But MS609 can read ABS codes. Check here: http://www.auteltech.com/ms609.htm.
The problem is that it's an endangered device. It's very hard to find it and cost much more.
There's also tool that can read ABS + airbags codes: http://www.auteltech.com/aa101.htm but cost about 330$.
There's also tool that can read codes from all modules, including cruise control, REM and FEM. Like errors for safety belt, traction control, air suspension... like this one: http://www.auteltech.com/ds708.htm that cost about 1000$.
farns said that Ford pulled string of codes for many different modules. So a scanner under 1000$ will not pull theses string of codes, but the 2 trans codes.
Anyway, they probably are all caused by unstable supply voltage. So no scanners in the world will resolve this issue like I said in my last posts.
Neither the trans hydraulic problem. I just mention the MS509 as a good choice information, not to make the diagnosis.
About intermittent high voltage charging system problem, it could also be caused by bad battery connection, bad contacts in under hood or indoor fuse boxes' wires, or somewhere else. When resistance increases, alternator's regulator output voltage increases. Like Oscar suggested. Because it's a switching regulator system made with inductive coils.
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