95 3.8 coolant troubles

Hi, Its been a while since I have needed some help. Usually I am good at searching the web and fixing troubles with my vehicle but I am in dire need of help this time.

I noticed the van wasn's always putting out heat when the heater or defroster was on, it was hit or miss but worked most of the time. That had been going on for maybe a yr. I noticed a month or so ago when driving to work (only 3 miles) that half way there while running the defroster the temp guage got up to the R so I turned off the defrost and the guage dropped immediately. 2 weeks ago I came out from work and noticed I had a puddle under the van. It was coolant (dirty coolant). Hubby checked but wasnt sure where the leak was from. He kept an eye on the coolant level untill he could get to it this past weekend. He says it appeared to him that it was coming from possibly the thermostat gasket but he said it was hard to tell as the thermostat gasket and the upper manifold gasket meet right at that spot. Well, he replaced the thermostat gasket. The leak was still occuring but it was a smaller amount of coolant leaking onto the ground now. He put some Bars Leak into the radiator 2 nights ago as well as coolant. The van was still leaking a little yesterday.

Here's the bigger problem. I left work and like I said it is only 3 miles to drive home. I get almost home and I noticed the temp guage was almost on the N and immediately pulled of the road and shut the van down. I heard bubbling and gurrgling coming from under the hood. I opened the hood and the overflow bottle is almost completely full. After I few phones calls for help and a possible ride home, I talked to my brother and he said let it cool for a while and I should be ok to drive it the less than a mile home. Started the van and the temp guage was back down. I drove home withe the neighbor behind me following. When I reached the driveway the temp guage started rising again. I parked the van and call my brother to let him no I got home safely. He said something wasn't allowing the water to flow through the system and getting hung up.

Any further hints or help would be grately appreciated since this is my only vehicle.

Dott

Hello Dott,

The only thing that comes to my mind is a bad water pump. These have a small seal which causes the coolant to leak from behind the pump pulley when they go bad. The overheating might be caused by air coming into the engine through the broken seal OR maybe the propeller has just disintegrated with time and old coolant.

Maybe someone else can give another procedure to be sure the pump is the problem. Other than REMOVING the pump for inspection I can just suggest to start the engine and feel the UPPER radiator hose, some pressure should build up because of the thermostat being closed.

One more thing, since the van has overheated already it is a good idea to replace the thermostat, that might have also caused the second time overheating; these tend to fail when they are overheated and fail at the closed position, although some fail-safe t-stats get stuck in the open position.

Best regards,

Oscar.

I would also second a bad water pump, sounds like the impeller is gone. If his is the original water pump and thermostat on a 15 year old car then I would say you got your monies worth.

If hubby decides to replace water pump be sure to replace thermostat and use a water hose to flush out any water passages he can get to, this will flush out mud and crud. I always pull one of the heater hoses and flush out the heater core also.

Good luck with it.

The Gurgling and full overflow bottle are signs that air is getting into the cooling system.
This is common with a leak.
The coolant cycles hot and cold......going hot, coolant will leak out of the defective spot.
Going cold, air will be sucked in.
Once there is air in the system, strange things can happen.

The $$$$ question is, Where is the leak?
As you saw coolant leaking in the area of the thermostat, I am optomistic about the water pump......as they are on opposite ends of the motor.
The issue here is that the '95 3.8L windstar is unique, they made major changes starting in '96.
The '95 has a alluminum upper intake manifold and does NOT have the IMRC system.
The '95 also had head gasket issues........not to say that this is for certain the issue here.
They DID use the front wheel drive version of the 3.8L motor in other vehicles, like the Taurus up through '95.
Starting in '96, they used the front wheel drive version of the 3.8L motor in the Windstar ONLY.
There are differences between the rear wheel drive block and the front wheel drive block.

I do not know if the lower intake manifold gasket was a weak point with the '95 or not......it IS a issue starting in '96 with the 3.8L motor and I would be suggesting it on a '96 or newer, but they have different material for the upper vs lower intake manifolds......alluminum lower with a nylon upper.
Different materials have different expansion and contraction amounts and rates, which is what causes issues with gaskets.
Again, the '95 has alluminum for both the upper and lower intake manifolds.

I would check the heater hose connections and (if the '95 has it) the crossover, aka bypass pipe......Rockauto shows just a hose for '95.
There is a heater hose "quick connect" connector right by the thermostat.
RockAuto website shows that you have one on the '95 3.8L and I am guessing that is it.
Mine fell apart when I was removing it doing my lower intake manifold gaskets.....something you can pretty much count on after all these years.....and I did not have the correct size replacement......I ended up cutting the connector off the hose....bending a bracket a little bit and using a hose clamp to tighten the hose onto the connection.......I felt better about that connection than I did the quick connect......enough better that I did not change it.
It would be really nice to have it be a hose or loose hose clamp.

My advice would be to have a qualified mechanic check it out.
A head gasket job will include new lower intake manifold gaskets.
Of course, a head gasket job is expensive, and you have to look at the overall condition of the vehicle.
I don't want to jump to it being a head gasket, but on a '95, it is something that I would have checked out.
I am not experienced enough to be able to make that determination in person, much less over the internet.
It can be difficult telling if it is a head gasket or a less expensive lower intake manifold gasket....as both can show many of the same symptoms.

Needless to say, I would not trust the vehicle to drive at this point until repaired.

First Thank You for the quick replies. I don't think it's the water pump is leaking. The thermostat seems to be working. I was wondering if to much air could have gotten in last weekend while hubby was replacing the thermostat gasket.

There doesn't appear to be a quick connect. Looks like it was done with a clamp as you were talking about.

We purchased the vehicle in 03'. The dealer had to soon after replace to motor bearing. When I went to pick up the van, the dealer told me the motor had been replaced in 99 so I was hoping that the head gasket wouldn't be the issue. If this turns out to be the head leaking out then the van will have to sit since I am like most people right now, just surviving week to week.

Hubby will be flushing the raidiator tommorow and trying to burp the system to see what happens. We are hoping for a clog that can be worked out then finding the leak and going from there.

Wiswind you have helped me figure out most of the problems with the van and for that I very much thank you. The last problem we has was the CE light code P1407 and after searching all over the internet I found a post from you about the DPFE and sure enough that was a quick fix as well as one within my $ limits.

I will let you know what we find.

It can be tough "burping" the air pockets out of the coolant system.
Just a bit of air can make the temperature peg......and cause heat issues.
After changing the coolant....I would idle it in the driveway STAYING in the driver's seat watching the temperature gauge.
If it swings up near HOT, then simply shut the motor off....and let it cool down.
Then, after it is cooled down fully, you might remove the radiator cap and add a 50/50 coolant mix as needed to fill the radiator up to the cap....if needed.
Then put the cap back on.....verify proper amount of coolant in the overflow bottle....then start the motor and idle again, watching the temperature gauge.
You may need to add a bit of coolant to the overflow bottle the next day or so, but you should NOT see any coolant leaking....and should not need to continue to need to add coolant beyond the next day or so.

Ok, hubby flush out the radiator, cleaned out the overflow tank and took the hose off that goes into the water pump to clean it. The barsleak was clumpy in just about everything. He refilled and took it for a drive afterwards on sat. There was no heat. Sunday, he took it for 2 more rides to see what happens again and it never overheated. We still have a leak after shutting the van off. There were 2 other guys here helping that like working on vehicles and they can't figure where the leak is coming from either. There is no coolant in the oil and no oil in the coolant. I am supecting the head gasket has a leak but it is funny that it would only leak to the outside of the vehicle?

When I shut the vehicle off just a few minutes ago after getting home from work, I could hear some fluid flowing right behind the dash where I think the heater core is at.

Being tapped out at xmas with vehicle troubles sucks. I miss those days of working at the garage and having them fix the van and letting me make payments on the bill.

It is really hard seeing in to locate these things.
One thing you could try is keeping the radiator cap loose as a VERY temporary fix.
This would prevent the system from building pressure....and you could see if you are still needing to add coolant.

I wonder if you could try removing the heater hose from the driver side of the upper intake manifold and see (with the motor OFF and radiator cap OFF) if you can blow through it (using care not to ingest any coolant).
This would verify if there is/isn't a blockage in the heater circuit.
Coolant flows through the heater core all the time when the motor is running.
Temperature control inside the vehicle is done by a electric motor moving a "blend" door that determines how much air moves over the hot heater core.

With no heat, that makes defrosting the windshield a real challenge.

I don't know how active the Taurus forum is on here....but they used the 3.8L in that vehicle for a few years.
The windstar only had your version of the 3.8L for 1995.
They made casting changes and used a completly different intake manifold (upper and lower) starting in 1996.
You might try searching on the Taurus forum for your problem........1995 and older.
The water pump impeller issue that newer Taurus's had was NOT an issue on the Windstar......That was on a different motor (not the 3.8L).
The Windstar has a metal impeller in the water pump.

Thanks Wiswind.

After hubby looking and messing with the van all weekend and never finding the leak, I finally found the leak today and it doesn't look good.

I took a photo and tried using yellow to highligh the area. It appears to be a gasket leaking to the outside.

As I am not familiar with the '95 version of the 3.8L motor......I cannot be certain.
On the '96, I remember the thermostat mounting as being in the upper intake manifold.
From looking at your picture......and you will be able to tell better than I can by looking on your vehicle......it looks like what you have circled is between the same casting that the thermostat mounting is a part of......which would be the lower intake manifold.......connecting to another casting.....which would be the head.
From that.....I am thinking that it might be the lower intake manifold gasket that is leaking.

This is not be best picture.....but this is a picture that I took to try to show the detail of the quick connect (some folks have had problems with it.....popping off when the cooling system comes up to pressure).....
In this picture, you can see the thermostat housing........and I took this picture......which is the end of the lower intake manifold.....with the intake manifold off the vehicle and sitting on my driveway.....which makes me more confident that it is the lower intake manifold gasket leaking.
So......again.....while it is a involved job to do yourself........and maybe around $400 to have done for you.......it is not as involved as a head gasket job.....or as expensive.

http://inlinethumb10.webshots.com/47945/2306736350011220610S500x500Q85.jpg (http://rides.webshots.com/photo/2306736350011220610LKbEKH)

Thanks Wiswind.

After hubby looking and messing with the van all weekend and never finding the leak, I finally found the leak today and it doesn't look good.

I took a photo and tried using yellow to highligh the area. It appears to be a gasket leaking to the outside.

Well, I can offer you a little good news. I have a 95 Windstar 3.8L and I went through a very similiar problem. (without the overheating). I kept noticing a very small stain/puddle in my driveway. I knew it was antifreeze by looking at it. I, like you, had hell locating it and it was in exactly the same spot yours is. It took me crawling up under the vehicle, in the winter unfortunately, wiping away the antifreeze and following the trail up the motor. It took probably 1.5 hours under there before I finally witnessed what was happening. It was leaking at a painstakingly slow rate. A drip would form about every 4-6 minutes.

I pondered what to do about it. Honestly, the van has 185,000 miles and I use it as a spare vehicle. I decided it wasn't worth the cost/effort to rebuild as I had no other symptoms (no water in the oil, no smoking, etc.) I just top off the radiator every few months and it rolls down the road perfectly. Mine has been well over two years like this. I'm not sure how vigorous your leak is, but it might just be better to leave well enough alone. Just my thoughts.

Mark

I was thinking of this all day and what am I going to do. There is no way I can get the money for repair at them moment. Everything has been going through my head. I was coming back to post to see what might happen if I leave this go and just keep the coolant topped off for the next month or so. I was wondering if it would just blow out and leave me sitting inbetween work and picking my son up from school and then we will both be stranded. Should I fix it when I get the money or just start looking for another vehicle, not know what might have been the problem with it.

Honestly I bought the van almost 8 yrs ago for $4500. paid it off in 11 months and it has been our everything vehicle. Other than the $3000 I put out for a new tranny there has only been standard things fixed. The van had 60,000 miles on the odometer when purchased but had the motor replaced in 99. I now have 149,000 on it.


Mark, you made me feel a little better. I only drove 3 miles to work this morning and there was a quarter sized spot under the van when I came out for break. I put a rubbermaid container box lid under the van when I get home to keep an eye on what is coming out as well. There might have been an 8th of a cup on the lid and hr after parking. I now pop the hood so I can check it out as well when getting home. The only way I found the leak is I spotted it bubbling at that spot. I think my leak may be worst than yours but I am keeping a close eye on it. The only time hubby would check the coolant is if I said something about the van running hot or the heater not working and it was always because it was a little low on coolant.

I think the bubbleing over into the overflow was related to something I read yesterday that you had posted somewhere else Wiswind. Hubby didn't properly add the barsleak. The overflow was full of barsleak that day. I always say"there are instructions for a purpose".

I haven't been anywhere other than home and work since the bubbling into the overflow. Luckily I had someone willing to pick my son up from school. I will be taking the van out for a drive to my sons school over the long weekend to see if there are any problems for it making the trip (9 miles each way). My fingers are crossed.

You guys have been the best help.

I am suprised that the Bar's did not help.
My lower intake manifold leak was greatly slowed down by Bar's.......but not solved.
As you can tell in my pictures, the lower intake manifold gaskets got replaced and all was well.
The replacement gaskets have been improved to correct the issues that caused them to fail.
If you are driving short distances, you could loosen the radiator cap and keep an eye on the coolant level in the RADIATOR by removing the cap (when cool) and making sure that you see coolant in the radiator.
Make SURE that you have the correct mix of coolant and distilled water (a 50/50 mix) and you will be fine.
Having the radiator cap loose will prevent the cooling system from building up pressure......and pushing coolant out the hole.

The Bar's stop leak is BEST added to the radiator NOT into the overflow bottle.
I would use the "original" pelleted version........If you loosen the cap on the Bar's bottle and put it into a pan of boiling HOT water on the stove (bring water to a boil, remove from burner, place Bar's bottle in pan of water and let it sit for 5 minutes) you will disolve the pellets.......use gloves to handle the bottle and dump it into the radiator at the radiator cap location.
I would even drain a small amount of coolant out of the radiator.......add the hot Bar's stop leak.....then add a 50/50 mix of coolant (use the same coolant that you drained out if it is relatively new coolant in there).

Sorry for not getting back sooner. I cleaned the overflow on christmas as well as filled with new coolant to the cold line. We left the cap off the overflow and ran the vehicle for quite a while with the heat on high to see if any bubbles would come up in the overflow. Well, a few bubbles came out but I don't know if that is normal or not.

Today after work I went and picked up some of the pellet Bar's Leak and did as directed with heating them up ahead of time. We did completely as you directed as well as the bottle. I let the van run for 30 mins. At first the temp guage kept climbing and went up to the "R". Once the thermostate opened it went down to the "M". Each time the thermostat opened the temp guage would slowly work its was down till it made it to the "L" and didn't move much up or down from that spot. During this time I kept close watch on the overflow and it slowly built up to almost the hot line.

Hubby then took the van up the road a mile and came back. The temp guage went to the "M" then back down to the "L". I let the van sit for 30 mins then checked the overflow and the level went back down to the cold line where it should be. I then ran the van for another 15 mins to check again and it seems to be fine. Also there hasn't been anything leaking since we added the Bar's Leak and let it run. I am keeping my fingers crossed.

I should mention too that we didn't add the full bottle of "Bar's Leak" completely because I was afraid of clogging it since it hasn't been properly taken car of.

Side Note, I believe when hubby added the first "Bar's Leak" (Alumium) he only ran the van for 10 or so mins and that is nowhere enough time to let the thermostat open.

We'll keep our fingers crossed that this will solve the problem.
I had you heat the bar's pellets up because, at least on my '96, the transmission cooler is right below the radiator cap (it is in that side tank....running from the bottom to the top of the radiator).......and the pellets don't get past that very well.
Heating them up gets then down into the radiator.
The BEST place to put them would be in the bottom radiator hose....but that is a real pain to work with, and you have to drain all the coolant out.......getting air into the system which takes time to bleed out.

I wanted to get the stop-leak to circulate throughout the system.....not just get pushed up into the overflow bottle where it would stay.

It will be very nice it this plugs up that leak.
As it is a leak to the outside, you have a good chance.
The other option is replacement of the lower intake manifold gaskets, which is a lot more work and $$$ than the stop-leak, so this is certainly worth a try.

Just thought I would give an update.

It didn't go as smooth as I thought it had. The next day I had the same issues with overheating and overflow filling. It took me over an hour to get the 3 miles home from work but she got me here. The overflow ended up cracking under the stress and blew fluid everywhere.

I just went shopping instead for another vehicle. I think since my youngest is 18 it was time to give up the van and go to a car anyways. In the end she gave me a long time for the money and she altimately ended up back where I purchased her at since I used her as my trade in. *I didn't even ask if the dealer was going to fix it to resell.

Thanks for all the help even if I didn't get it right I have learned a ton along the way.

Dott