"Diff"ering opinions on whether there are new lockers for the Xterra....

The thread about it on XOC (http://www.xterraownersclub.com/cgi-local/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=2&t=000216)

Calmini's site (http://www.purenissan.com/traction_devices.htm)

The Detroit Locker (http://www.purenissan.com/detroit_locker.htm)

The PowerTrax Lock Right (http://www.purenissan.com/lockright.htm)

The Tochigi LSD unit (available now for the front) (http://www.purenissan.com/tochigi-fuji_lsd.htm)

3 choices, all under $500. Not a bad week. Now, skepticism is to whether these actually fit the Xterra.

Let the debate begin..... :uhoh:

IIRC the H233B in the Xterra has a 33 spline axle. Calmini lists these lockers for use with the 31 spline axle.

Either I am wrong and we have a 31 spline axle. Or, Calmini has either listed the spline count for the lockers wrong or Calmini forgot we have a 33 spline axle when they listed these three lockers under the Xterra section of their site.

I just want to know for sure. Does Calmini have lockers for our Xterras or not.

You forgot

- I might buy one in the future but I have not wheeled enough to know yet :angel:

- I might buy one in the future but I have not wheeled enough to know yet

1 vote for me too, please.

I'm going to keep holding out for the E-Locker.

When I first heard about them comming out I was excited.
When I found out that they would include the Xterra early on in the production schedule I was amazed.

Eaton is well know for traction aiding devices, I'm glad they happened to direct their attention to the Xterra before some of the more mainstream offroading vehicles.

that I can probably hold out for the e-locker if it comes out in about a year. It really depends on what price they put it out for. If it is considerably more money than I will go with the ARB air locker as I don't want a full mechanical locker due to the amount of highway / city driving I do.

Well, since all but the ARB is vaporware at this moment...

I still vote for Ox.

I voted for the E-Locker because my Audi had an electronic locker and it kicked ass. If the price is the same or less than the ARB, I will seriously consider it. If it's higher, then I will get the ARB. I don't like the negatives that come with the others.

I still wish we could have the Detroit Electrac (http://www.tractech.com/WhatsNew.htm)...
But it's a longshot.

Brent

Wish in one hand and poop in the other and see which fills up first. Those of you with 2000 Xs who are holding out for the Eaton locker, I hope you get your wish. As I understand it (and this hopefully has changed for your sake), the Eaton locker will first be a production line item. After the OEM market is established, the aftermarket will be evaluated. I have heard nothing regarding the front locker. As I understood it, it was strictly an experimental item. I do know that odds are overwhelmingly in favor of it NOT being offered from the factory for the front. BUT, considering the advancements of the new jeep Rubicon, there is a possibility things could change if manufacturers see there is actually a demand for vehicles of this type. IMHO, the Rubicon setup rocks. Air lockers that engage at 6 PSI. No worries about excessive pressure blowing out diff seals as there is in the ARBs. The problems I have with factory electricals is just what is seen in the 'yotas, setting it up so it can only be used in 4Lo. Hopefully Nissan does better than this, but I still wonder about the mentality of the 2000/2001 cruise switches, the 2002 enthusiast package that is nothing more than manual locking hubs with NO SC option, etc. Things that make you go hmmmm...

Originally posted by OffroadX
I still wish we could have the Detroit Electrac (http://www.tractech.com/WhatsNew.htm)...
But it's a longshot.

Brent

Originally posted by warmonger
Those of you with 2000 Xs who are holding out for the Eaton locker, I hope you get your wish. As I understand it (and this hopefully has changed for your sake), the Eaton locker will first be a production line item. After the OEM market is established, the aftermarket will be evaluated. I have heard nothing regarding the front locker. As I understood it, it was strictly an experimental item. I do know that odds are overwhelmingly in favor of it NOT being offered from the factory for the front.

At GOX the Eaton rep gave us tenative schedules and prices.
The price was about $1000-1500 dollars for:

"Rear only or Front and Rear ELockers
Complete set of Front & Rear Axle Shafts
Ready to install Wiring Harness
Two Eaton ELocker window decals
Detailed instructions"

It may have changed but it would be unlikely for a bunch of Enthusiasts to get a company to support them, then the company turn around and cut the people who requested the Locker, out of the picture.

Originally posted by warmonger
Wish in one hand and poop in the other and see which fills up first.

What do I do with this handful of poop now ???

Originally posted by Kerensky97


At GOX the Eaton rep gave us tenative schedules and prices.
The price was about $1000-1500 dollars for:

"Rear only or Front and Rear ELockers
Complete set of Front & Rear Axle Shafts
Ready to install Wiring Harness
Two Eaton ELocker window decals
Detailed instructions"

I'm still unclear on this. Is the Eaton going to replace the rear Diff, or is an open diff required?:confused:

Originally posted by warmonger
I still wonder about the mentality of the 2000/2001 cruise switches, the 2002 enthusiast package that is nothing more than manual locking hubs with NO SC option, etc. Things that make you go hmmmm...

I feel like I should know what you mean, but I can't tell if you're saying these are positive or negative decisions.

Brent

Brent,

I see these as negatives on Nissans part. The Enthusiast package really should be FAR more than what it is. Now Nissan is offering leather as an Xterra option. Next it will be heated seats and with each successive step in the wrong direction puts us true off-roaders one step further behind. Will Nissan truly offer an enthusiasts edition in a form like the Rubicon? It's hard to say. IMHO, an enthusiasts edition would include front and rear pull points, manual locking hubs, 31 or 32" 15" off-road tires, an SC option, an improved transfer case ratio (at least 2.75/1, preferably 3/1), etc. I can tell you what I have heard thus far from those involved in the Project X truck and that is what I told you. Power Trax told me point blank that they had no interest in building diffs for Nissans. That may have changed since then, but I haven't heard anything I would count as positive other than rumors. As for the Ox locker, you won't see it on a Nissan anytime soon. The Nissan H233B uses a third member setup and the Ox locker requires a diff cover replacement to make room for the engagement mechanism.

Don't give up hope though. I have found people and companies far more receptive if they know Nissan owners are spending money. For that reason I include a link to my website in any and all correspondence. You just have to twist the screws in the right places. In the meantime, don't hold up on plans for your project vehicle waiting on vapor ware. As long as there are others willing to produce products that others are not, they will continue to have the business the others do not. Sooner or later they will get tired of losing the money.

Originally posted by OffroadX


I feel like I should know what you mean, but I can't tell if you're saying these are positive or negative decisions.

Brent

Originally posted by Kerensky97


At GOX the Eaton rep gave us tenative schedules and prices.
The price was about $1000-1500 dollars for:

"...Complete set of Front & Rear Axle Shafts......."



I wonder if they are changing to 31 spline axle shafts. There is no other reason to change the axle shafts, right????? :confused:

I'm excited about the Eaton lockers, but if they were changing to a lower spline count to make them fit I would be inclined to stick with ARB. Somebody correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think installing lockers normally requires changing the axle shafts.

Just picking nits, but the leather package isn't an option, it's an accessory. Big difference in mindset. When it becomes an option, Nissan will have committed a sin.

Brent

I know what you mean. The only thing that bothers me is that the thought was there. They thought enough to give the cushy ride folks leather but not enough to give us off-roaders front and rear tow hooks, a FAR cheaper option. Kind of tells me what direction it is heading.

Originally posted by OffroadX
Just picking nits, but the leather package isn't an option, it's an accessory. Big difference in mindset. When it becomes an option, Nissan will have committed a sin.

Brent

Originally posted by Stormy
I'm still unclear on this. Is the Eaton going to replace the rear Diff, or is an open diff required?:confused:

It's a replacement so LSD's and open diffs can use it, but intallation will have more steps due to moving the ring gear from the old carrier to the locker.
Here's a pic: (click on it to go to Eaton's Site to see how it works)
http://www.rockcrawler.com/techreports/eaton_elocker_preview/DSCN1943.jpg (http://www.torquecontrol.eaton.com/prod1.htm)
Originally posted by Scott G
I wonder if they are changing to 31 spline axle shafts. There is no other reason to change the axle shafts, right?????

I'm excited about the Eaton lockers, but if they were changing to a lower spline count to make them fit I would be inclined to stick with ARB. Somebody correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think installing lockers normally requires changing the axle shafts.

All I remeber is that the reason the axle shafts were included is because the locker wouldn't work with the stock axles.
Unfortuneately that means you HAVE to buy the axles with the Locker. But on the plus side its good to upgrade to heavy-duty axles when going to a locker because of the extra demands placed on the axles.

Dustin,

Unless it changes the actual diameter or the tensile strength of the axle, it is merely a reduction. The factory axles are already heavy duty with 33 splines. It sounds to me like they are adapting the housing to fit as many vehicles as possible by forcing an axle change. At 31 splines it fits the majority of the older Nissan apps. The really old stuff (29 spline) and the really new stuff (33 spline) will have to be adapted so they don't have to make three different chunks. But depending on what happens with the OEM unit, that could very well change. I find it hard to believe the factory is going to reduce axle strength to fit one in. Usually the vendor makes the chunk to fit the product, not the other way around.

Originally posted by Kerensky97


All I remeber is that the reason the axle shafts were included is because the locker wouldn't work with the stock axles.
Unfortuneately that means you HAVE to buy the axles with the Locker. But on the plus side its good to upgrade to heavy-duty axles when going to a locker because of the extra demands placed on the axles.

Yep, I had to upgrade the axles on my AMC 20 Jeep axle when installing a Detroit locker because the 2 piece stock axles were to weak. (I broke one before I even got the locker).

However, I thought our 33 spline Xterra axles were pretty heavy duty from the factory and wouldn't need to be changed. I haven't heard any of the guys installing ARB lockers mention anything about changing the axles. If you still have contact with the Eaton rep, you might want to ask him about the spline count. I would like to know if they are upgrading to better axles, or just trying to make a locker that will fit more vehicles.

Thanks for all of the information you have already provided.

:) :)

Originally posted by pseacraft:
I asked ProwerTrax about the Lock-Right and made sure they knew I had a 2X open diff an dhere is their reply. I hope it's sooner than later.


"Eric,

We offer the Lock-Right for the H233B differentials, but only for the 31
spline which is in the V6 Hardbody. The Xterra has 33 spline axles. We are
designing a No-Slip Traction System for the Xterra, but it will not be
available until later this year hopefully.

Thanks,

Powertrax"


A little good news. The no-slip should have better on road characteristics than the lock-right.

Goliath,

Just so you know, the no-slip is the weaker of the two PowerTrax units. It probably won't be an issue in a stock Xterra since the engine is so weak to begin with, but in the SC or a modified X, it may have issues. No guarantees, but I know of several Jeepers who used them, broke them and replaced them with the LockRight set up because of it. But that is good news for the stock 170 crowd. Don't forget that it does require an open diff, which means you will be replacing the carrier to put it in. Finding an open carrier for an H233B won't be easy unless you buy it new. There aren't too many X's running around with V6s and open diffs, same with Frontiers. Most of those with open diffs are I-4s and they use the C200.

To add on the E-lockers, the rep at GOX was quite clear that there would be significant cost savings due to the ease of install of the E-locker vs. ARB locker. They plan to include a "self-install" kit that the "enthusiast" would be able to install without paying a transmission shop.

FYI, the ProwerTrax No-Slip being tested/developed for the H233B will work with LSD equipped X’s from what I have been told/seen.

I hope the Eaton E-locker for the X comes out this year but its still going to be more expensive/harder to install then the PowerTrax No-slip that will likely ship first this year IMO.

Has anyone actually talked to Calmini armed with the facts, or is most of this pure speculation?

Originally posted by warmonger
Goliath,

Just so you know, the no-slip is the weaker of the two PowerTrax units. It probably won't be an issue in a stock Xterra since the engine is so weak to begin with, but in the SC or a modified X, it may have issues. No guarantees, but I know of several Jeepers who used them, broke them and replaced them with the LockRight set up because of it. But that is good news for the stock 170 crowd. Don't forget that it does require an open diff, which means you will be replacing the carrier to put it in. Finding an open carrier for an H233B won't be easy unless you buy it new. There aren't too many X's running around with V6s and open diffs, same with Frontiers. Most of those with open diffs are I-4s and they use the C200.

Thanks for the info War. I'm not looking to pull more ponies out of the engine so I'm not too worried about nuking the no-slip. The powertrax lockers are easy on the pocket. I'm definetly more interested in the e-locker, especially if the e-locker and the no-slip hit the market around the same time. If XtoolBox is correct and the no-slip will work in the LSD atleast it is another option for us.

At this point it's all vaporware, so only time will tell.

I just got off of a long discussion with Steve at CalMini and here is the gist of what I currently know. The Eaton locker more than likely will not be released until the end of 2002. At this point I don't know whether it will be 31 spline or not. The 31 spline is for the older H233B as I had said. So that more or less verifies my original assertion for the possibility of replacing the axles. I would be disappointed if it goes that route since the extra cost that is being passed on to the user can be solved by a simple die change in the machining process.

As for the PowerTrax Lock Right, CalMini is working on the LSD issue and Steve agrees with me that in the case of the Xterra/Frontier it would be crazy to make one for open diffs when maybe 20% of the trucks at best have open diffs. He is experimenting with the fit of one of the units now, but how long the testing will take and whether it will pan out or not remains to be seen. From what Steve told me, the LockRight H233B uses a single pin setup as opposed to others dual pin setup. This could (and I stress could, not guarantees) a possible weakness. It may not be a low hp problem, but the concern is when 32" or taller tires are factored in with rocks.

Steve also indicated he is working on getting Detroit Locker to modifiy their dies as well to make the Detroit available in 33 spline. The question is will they do it and how long will it take. The Detroit Locker is one tough mother humper and will take all the abuse that can be dished out. You will brake and axle or other misc parts before you break it. Once again, time is the issue. He can't say how long this will take so it's anybodies guess.

In the end, the Nissan increase in axle strength has put us at an odd end. If you want the other diffs, you can get them by switching to a 31 spline axle. It's not too tough, but by the time you are done you might as well put in an ARB. There are people working to resolve the issue, but it is a matter of how long you are willing to wait.

Thanks for the update, has Steve verified that non-LSD trucks have 31 spline axles? If not how is he trying to make it fit? I TOTALLY agree that Tractech(Detroit Locker) and Powertrax are sitting on their hands right now regarding making a simple change so they can offer their diffs to us...must be more to it then you, Steve or I can see.

*Food for thought*

Just a possibility that the Eaton locker itself is wider, thus requiring less length to the axles.

It's Cheaper and easier to just send out new axles rather than having them ground down and resplined.

I seriously doubt that they would send out a weaker axle out than OEM specs.

Width as I understand it will be the same. Thus the strength won't be changed with the exception of a reduced number of splines. That CAN make it easier to spin off the splines, but anything thirty and above will be pretty tough to spin off. It has nothing to do with the width of the diff. If you know how diffs work you know that the bearing caps fit in the same location no matter what. You can't vary the length of the axle because the carrier will no longer fit in the housing. You already have to use a spreader for a proper fit, how much wider can they go? I think they really need to evaluate market share. As Steve and I discussed, the Xterra is where the money is as much as I hate to say it. Why build something for one single truck (and even worse than that, the truck that no one modifies) and require everyone else to adapt? Again, it is a matter of one die change. Hell, even Steve could make the necessary gears to make it work. It's not that big of a deal once you have the basics down pat! Steve is evaluating making his own gearset for the Detroit 31 spline. But again, that takes time. If you are adamant about using a Detroit, you will have to be patient. It ain't happenin' overnight folks. I am merely telling you what I currently know. It could change overnight, it's hard to say.

Originally posted by warmonger

the Xterra is where the money is as much as I hate to say it. Why build something for one single truck (and even worse than that, the truck that no one modifies) and require everyone else to adapt?

You lost me here, who are you reffering too? :confused:

I'm also confused as to why anybody even brought up using the 31 spline axles??? They are the same length as the 33. I'm just curious, maybe Eaton told you guys something at GOX.

The Detroit Locker uses a 31 spline setup from the older Pathfinders, Hard Bodies and Frontiers. Instead of remachining the gear set, they are looking at forcing us to adapt to the older gear set. It really doesn't decrease axle strength, but what it does do is cost us more money to install it. In order to put it in the newer Frontiers and Xs, it will require axle replacement. This started as a result of what the Eaton rep had said to one of our members here. I am willing to lay odds that isn't going to happen. If this actually does become a production line part, Nissan isn't going to step backwards to please Eaton. Eaton WILL step forward to please Nissan. That is how it works in the automobile manufacturing business if you want a piece of the action. Nissan lays down the specs and the vendor meets them or another vendor is found who can.

I have asked this on a couple of other forum's but not this one. I have not received a definitive answer yet, so here goes.

Are the 31 splined axles that Nissan's Project X with the Eaton E-locker a one-off (custom) job? Or are they Old Pathy or Hardbody Axles? Here's why I ask this. My thought is could we as Frontier and Xterra owners use the 31 splined Pathfinder axles (found at a junk yard) and replace the carrier with a 31 splined Detroit Locker now?

I have been under the impression that the Pathfinder Axles are shorter and would not work for this application, but Noone wants to go on record as verifying this. Although, a Hardbody Axle may work. I haven't been able to verify that either.

As to the older axles being weaker because of the fewer splines, that is correct. However with our low HP engines "I" do not feel this is a problem. "IF" we had 250-300hp, then yes, we could spin the splines off, but with 170hp at the Flywheel, No, that's not an issue in my book. How many older Pathy's or Hardbodies have you heard of breaking rear axles. Even with chevy conversion's I can't recall anyone haveing problems with the axles. :cool:

Cliff

Yes War, I know about the 31 spline count axles and the Detroits. Remember I own a Hardbody. All I was asking is why people thought that Eaton was going to use the 31 spline axles.

The only frontier that didn't use the H233b was the 98 Frontier. It uses a modified C200 found from earlier Hardbodies with the 4 banger and 720 trucks. In fact Desert Rat has this truck and in order to fit an ARB in his truck he had to have the axles ground down in order to make it fit. Also why I asked if the Axles needed to be shorter for the new Eaton locker which may have a longer spline housing, or the unit itself is more narrow, which would require longer axles. Yes it is possible crack open your diff and check again. Is there anybody with some hard facts on this????

Since the inception of the 99 with the V6 it has always used the 33 spline axles.

As far as anybody is concerned about breaking an axle, good luck, you will strip out your spider gears first. Both a rarity.

Wilbur: Which Pathy are you reffering too??? The WD-21(pre-96) or the R-50(96+)???

The wd-21 and d-21 axles are the same. However there are a few years(around 90) that some minor changes that have been made and I don't know for sure what the little changes were through the years. I know that some differences were the R&P. As far as the 96-99 (pathy)R-50 I don't know what differences there *might* be but as far as I know the 99.5 pathy(R-50) and the V6 Frontiers and X's (W)D-22 *should* be the same.

I would recommend giving Nissan Mike a call. He can confirm or correct anything I have posted. More than likely correct me :o He knows his axles ALOT better than myself.