98 w/3.0 engine cranks but won't start?

[suburbanstevie]

Friends,
Need a little help with my 98 Windstar. Engine cranks fine, lots of gas, but will not start. seems like either no fuel is getting to the engine (fuel filter changed last year), or no juice getting to the spark plugs. Also, I hooked my code reader up to the OBD-II receptacle, and there was no stored codes.

I've got the official shop manuals and a Chilton's manual. But before I crack them open to start the research, was wondering if anybody has already had this problem.

thanks,

[olopezm]

You can start by checking the fuel pressure at the injectors rail and also make sure you have spark at the wires, you might have a bad coil pack. I know the windstar tends to have problems with it but I'm not sure if your model is affected with this condition.

Best regards,

Oscar.

[wiswind]

A common problem is the fuel pump or power to the fuel pump.
It can be intermittent or solid.
I don't know if you have the separate fuel pump relay on your '98 or not, but they are problematic on the 1999 and newer.
You don't get any code for fuel pump not runing because the windstar has not sensors to monitor fuel pressure or fuel flow.
If you have a fuel pressure gauge, you could check for fuel pressure at the test point at the middle of the front fuel rail that connects to the fuel injectors.
You might be able to get a free loaner pressure tester at Autozone through their tool loaner program.
If no fuel pressure, the engine will not fire.

Another thing to check is the battery, a low battery voltage can cause the fuel pump to not run, yet still be able to deliver enough to turn the motor over.

[suburbanstevie]

Between checking the Fuel Pressure and the Ignition Coil, I checked the easy one first, the Ignition Coil. According to Chilton's it is a two-step check.

First check the Ohms between the #4 pin and the #'s 1, 2, and 3 pins on the receptacle. This seemed to check within spec (.3-1.0 Ohms), mine all checked .7 Ohms.

Second, check the Ohms between pins 1, 2, and 3 and respective plug wire terminals as described in Chiltons. The required reading was something in the kOhms range (I don't remember exactly, and I'm at the office now, but I seem to remember 10.0-12.0 kOhms). But all 6 of my readings for this second test still read 1.0 meaning an "Open Circuit".

My Question... Would conductivity to ALL SIX plug terminals go bad at the same time? I am using a good digital meter, that I have confidence in. And I did move the dial to the correct "range" to read the kOhms. And I even tried checking different terminals to be sure.

[olopezm]

You made a small mistake, there should be no continuity between the pins at the back and the big lugs at the front of the coil pack.

That's because the pins on the back are the 3 PRIMARY COILS which all tied together on one side (Pin #4) and the other side goes to the PCM (which applies either ground or voltage) for firing order.

The big lugs correspond to the 3 SECONDARY COILS this are physically separated from the primary coils, the magnetic field of the primary coils is induced into the secondary coils and that's what produces the voltage for each pair of cylinders (the engine fires 2 cylinders at a time)

What elevates the voltage from 12v to several thousands is the number of turns of the primary coil in relation with the number of turns of the secondary coil: if the primary has 10 turns and the secondary has 100 turns you'll have 10 times more voltage at the secondary than the primary.

After the theory let's go back to your problem. the readings for the second step should be taken from the big lugs at the top of the coil pack:

1 2 3
O O O --> COIL PACK LUGS
O O O --> COIL PACK LUGS
4 5 6

You should connect your multimeter between 1-4, 2-5, 3-6; each pair of lugs corresponds to the terminals of each secondary coil.

NOTE: the numbers have been used randomly, these do not correspond to the actual cylinder number.

Testing the fuel pressure does not takes much time, all you need is a fuel pressure tester which should be connected to the fuel test port at the injector rail on top of the engine.

Best regards,

Oscar.

[suburbanstevie]

Oscar,
thanks for reply. I understand your explanation of how the coil works, and I agree with you. But that is not how I interpretted the Chilton's manual, so will go home this evening and look at it again. I think I need to look into the fuel pressure before I do anything else.

sincerely,

[tempfixit]

If you don't have a fuel pressure gauge spray some starting fluid in the throttle body and seeif it runs on it. If it does its fuel related.

[mark_gober]

Originally Posted by suburbanstevie

Oscar,
thanks for reply. I understand your explanation of how the coil works, and I agree with you. But that is not how I interpretted the Chilton's manual, so will go home this evening and look at it again. I think I need to look into the fuel pressure before I do anything else.

sincerely,

Certainly squirting starter fluid in the intake will help you determine if you have a problem. Another method would be to remove the cap on the fuel pressure shrader valve thats located on the fuel rail. Press the shrader valve in and have someone engage the key. It should immediately begin spraying fuel out. If you'd rather not have the fire hazard, you could climb under the rear of the vehicle and listen when someone turns the key on. If you're fuel pump is working, you should hear an audible murmur for about 3 seconds.

Personally, I'm leaning toward your ignition system. (or a computer/sensor problem, because they control your ignition)

Mark

[suburbanstevie]

Mark, Tempfixit, Oscar, and Moerator "Wiswind",

OK, here is the latest in my saga. Went to Autozone and rented a fuel pressure tester. Rechecked the Ignition Coil per Oscars instructions (CHilton's manual definitely was wrong!), and coil tested OK. THANK YOU Oscar for saving me some serious cash!

Anyway, hooked up the pressure tester, got in the car and turned the key... and the car started! WHAT THE HEY?!... but the gauge registered pressure for only about 15-20 seconds they dropped fast causing the car to stall. So obviously the fuel pump stopped for some reason. I proceded to check the fuel pump fuse, relay, pressure regulator, and the inertia switch. all three seemed to have nice clean contacts and in good shape. I did test the Relay, but only in the de-energized state. Possibly the relay isn't making good contact in the energized state? I should have thought to swap that relay with another (like the wiper fluid pump relay). That will be a test for tonight. But I am thinking this is gonna be a job for a professional mechanic to drop the fuel tank.

Oh. I was able to get the car to start and stay on for quite some time (5 minutes or more). But then I'd turn it off and it would take possibly 6-10 attempts to get the car to start again. All the time I am trying, the fuel pressue is zero then would magically jjump to the required pressure.

So, before I try to drive it to the mechanic, is there any other obvious things I should check? Is there some other sensor that tells the computer to turn off the fuel pump?

thanks a bunch for your input. And Oscar, again thank you for keeping me from going down the wrong path with the Coil!

Sincerely,
Steve

[olopezm]

Originally Posted by mark_gober

Press the shrader valve in and have someone engage the key. It should immediately begin spraying fuel out. If you'd rather not have the fire hazard, you could climb under the rear of the vehicle and listen when someone turns the key on. If you're fuel pump is working, you should hear an audible murmur for about 3 seconds.

Personally, I'm leaning toward your ignition system. (or a computer/sensor problem, because they control your ignition)

Mark

I agree with you Mark, that's a good way to see if the pump is working, unfortunately that's not gonna give you any idea about the condition, the pump may be working but not providing enough pressure for the engine to work.

No problem Steve, you're welcome anytime! I'm glad you're able to save some money which otherwise would have been only a waste.

About the relay, you should definitely try swapping it with another one, the other obvious question is if the fuel pump is the factory installed one, if that's the case it is very likely that has worn out and you'll definitely need to replace it, it's not that hard to do it, all you need is time and patience.

When you turn the key to the ON position (engine not running) can you listen to the fuel pump being energized every time? If you do, then it's gonna be a bad fuel pump, if you don't it's likely that the relay it's bad. Also the fuel pressure is dropping to soon which leads to a high possibility of the pump being bad.

Finally if you can manage to get the engine running use the fuel pressure gauge to see if pressure goes up about 10 PSI when you disconnect the fuel pressure regulator vacuum hose (you mentioned you checked it already, but I don't know if this is the way you did).

Best regards,

Oscar.

[suburbanstevie]

Oscar,

I tried real hard to listen to the fuel pump energizing each time the key was turned to "ON". But never really heard anything. I didn't try pulling the vacuum line, although the instruction manual with the tester did mention doing that.

I will swap the relay tonight, but I am more thinking it is the fuel pump. Because it is the original pump, and the car has about 140k miles. Easy to change? The tank is about 3/4 full, do I have to siphon it into buckets? I am a little uneasy doing that. can the pump be changed by just tipping the tank a little? Or is there a secret hatch under the spare tire that gives you acces to the fuel pump without dropping the tank?

Sincerely,
Steve

[olopezm]

Originally Posted by suburbanstevie

Oscar,

I tried real hard to listen to the fuel pump energizing each time the key was turned to "ON". But never really heard anything. I didn't try pulling the vacuum line, although the instruction manual with the tester did mention doing that.

I will swap the relay tonight, but I am more thinking it is the fuel pump. Because it is the original pump, and the car has about 140k miles. Easy to change? The tank is about 3/4 full, do I have to siphon it into buckets? I am a little uneasy doing that. can the pump be changed by just tipping the tank a little? Or is there a secret hatch under the spare tire that gives you acces to the fuel pump without dropping the tank?

Sincerely,
Steve

Steve,

At this point we could almost say the problem is the pump, you'll only be sure of that until you change the relay.

About the replacement, well it's not that hard nor that easy, the only problem is the weight of the tank, specially if you have lots of fuel in it (like you do) you can try to siphon it, it will definitely make things easier, if you don't you can use a piece of wood and an hydraulic jack to help you lowering the tank after you have taken the 2 or 3 belts that support the tank (my 2000 windstar has 3 belts).

That's what I did when I replaced mine, the other problems that could arise are the filler hoses which can be hard to take apart but that's nothing a good twist with a set of adjustable pliers and some patience can't take care of. If you do replace by yourself also make sure you get a lock ring removal tool to remove the big ring at the top of the pump.

Best regards,

Oscar.

[suburbanstevie]

Hey Oscar,
It's Saturday, and here is what I did. I've got a little battery meter that plugs into the cigarette lighter. it basically tells you the status of the battery and the alternator. Well I had it plugged in when I was testing the starting ability of the car. And one time I got the car started, but the pump began to stall, and just as this was happening the meter went to zero!!!! Something in the cars electrical system caused the power to possibly short. So I looked further at the alternator, and it was only putting out about 13.25 volts. and both the battery and alternator have been in the car for over 7 years.

So I changed the alternator and went to Sears and they confirmed that the battery needed replacing. ...So... maybe it is fixed (it seems to be running OK at the moment, as the wife is actually going shopping with it). But it possibly could still be the pump.

later,
Steve

[olopezm]

It's good to know that Steve,

Originally Posted by wiswind

Another thing to check is the battery, a low battery voltage can cause the fuel pump to not run, yet still be able to deliver enough to turn the motor over.

As you can see the "great lord of windstars" wiswind said it could be a battery problem so hopefully your problem has been solved for once and for all; a battery with 7 years is too much I've seen only a couple of those, I don't have much experience thou, but most of the times they last 5-6 years...

Keep an eye on the fuel pump, if you start having any other problems (I hope you don't) then the pump will be the next thing to check, these could be from starving problems to lean condition codes (P0171 or P0174).

Once again it's good to know it seems to be fixed...

Best regards,

Oscar.

[suburbanstevie]

Oscar and Wiswind,

Guess what... it's a couple of months since last post about this issue. Still had intermittant problems with Fuel pump not priming in the "ON" position. Got to the point monday night that I needed a tow straight to a mechanic. I knew ahead of time that I really didn't want to tackle this issue at this time (currently have family visiting). The mechanic called Tuesday with the prognosis, the Fuel Pump needs replacing. You both were correct to keep an eye on the pump, and that it can still operate intermittantly until WHAM-O, when it quits all together.

The damage... keeping in mind that the mechanic knows I had the car towed to him in a totally dead condition. And he knows I have zero alternatives..... $980.00. Just call me a loser. But I am still glad to be spending the time with relatives instead of under the car on a cold concrete slab against my back!

Again, I truly appreciate this forum. thanks for your help!!

BTW... today is my Birthday!