Rossi in faith - M1 2005 Sepang

[racer93]

Originally Posted by joeyko2000

So, here is comes after a couple of nights of decal works (I can now only sit on my bench for 1 or at most 2 hours every night on weekdays...)
the fender is a glossy surface(base?) and the airbox is a matt surface(base) for the CF decals.


As the pic shows, the difference is minimal to what the finish looks like. But I can tell the texture of the surface is a slightly different, just as the matt surface is rougher than that of a gloss surface. but after all, both things are to be coated with Clear coat and that will not be of any difference afterwards.

I have actually revisited the post before
http://www.automotiveforums.com/vbul...d.php?t=954716
and I should say, i will still stick on what i was thinking about the silvering and the decal sticking better on smoother surface. It is up to any situation where the object is desired to be in a rougher texture(just a little rough) and if it is to be coated with clear coat.
Hope this little test did not confuse anyone......XD

This is the way I see it. It needs to be glossy if it's fairly recent. Now, if you're looking at 80's, then it needs to be flat. (Just look at some pics of the Lotus 99T for evidence.) I have been using the Hi-def SMS decals, and they're pretty glossy to start with and also very dark so no darkening is necessary. There are no CF parts on these bikes that are not glossy. Thus, all should be glossy if you want to be accurate. Now, you need to be able to see the weave through the gloss. In other words, don't put the gloss on so thick that it's like the body panels. It just needs to be thick enough to gloss it up. (The actual CF on cars is glossy.)

No offense, but that CF decal is not good looking. No pattern to it. Yick. Try SMS or Studio 27. (I prefer SMS.)

Daniel

[joeyko2000]

Originally Posted by racer93

This is the way I see it. It needs to be glossy if it's fairly recent. Now, if you're looking at 80's, then it needs to be flat. (Just look at some pics of the Lotus 99T for evidence.) I have been using the Hi-def SMS decals, and they're pretty glossy to start with and also very dark so no darkening is necessary. There are no CF parts on these bikes that are not glossy. Thus, all should be glossy if you want to be accurate. Now, you need to be able to see the weave through the gloss. In other words, don't put the gloss on so thick that it's like the body panels. It just needs to be thick enough to gloss it up. (The actual CF on cars is glossy.)

No offense, but that CF decal is not good looking. No pattern to it. Yick. Try SMS or Studio 27. (I prefer SMS.)

Daniel

Morning Daniel, (it is 9:30am here is HK)

I perfectly agree that the Carbon parts on this M1 is polished for sure. But I was still wonder what the actual Carbon piece looks like. I had a chance to look at a carbon chassis and that is not polished at all in raw form. So I still hold back the opinion on whether a Carbon piece should always be glossy in recent auto.
The point in my mind for these MotoGP bike is that, they do polished the parts to brighten it up. On bikes, these pieces are already at the outside and are clearly visible. So polishing these CF parts just make the bike looks better.
That's why when we do the model kits, most of us will have it clear coated.

In F1, that is another issue. Those CF parts are lying under the cover. Thus not as visible as the bikes. Even if they are polished, it will not help a great deal to make the F1 better. So why worthe the work?!
On a scale model, I have seen a couple of works that the 99T is full of carbon decals coated with matt clear. For sure it add a great deal of realism as we can found those reference. But the first and foremost, the model itself is just replicating the real stuffs.
I am also building a FW24 a month ago. Just I am bored enough to get rid of all the CF decals around the chassis that I have jump out and start other kits. I am still wondering around if I am going do a gloss surface on them or just a semi gloss to replicate their true texture.

Back to the pattern itself, I am using S27 CF on these two blocks actually. It is in M size so probably the "lines" would not turn out to be as thin as that on the SMS decals. but I do like this pattern well as I did on my 04 M1 Test bike. So I just go ahead to have it here for 05.

(It's been long for a great technical discussion! In this way we all learn something from it! Please let me know what you think~~ )

[racer93]

Originally Posted by joeyko2000

Morning Daniel, (it is 9:30am here is HK)

I perfectly agree that the Carbon parts on this M1 is polished for sure. But I was still wonder what the actual Carbon piece looks like. I had a chance to look at a carbon chassis and that is not polished at all in raw form. So I still hold back the opinion on whether a Carbon piece should always be glossy in recent auto.
The point in my mind for these MotoGP bike is that, they do polished the parts to brighten it up. On bikes, these pieces are already at the outside and are clearly visible. So polishing these CF parts just make the bike looks better.
That's why when we do the model kits, most of us will have it clear coated.

In F1, that is another issue. Those CF parts are lying under the cover. Thus not as visible as the bikes. Even if they are polished, it will not help a great deal to make the F1 better. So why worthe the work?!
On a scale model, I have seen a couple of works that the 99T is full of carbon decals coated with matt clear. For sure it add a great deal of realism as we can found those reference. But the first and foremost, the model itself is just replicating the real stuffs.
I am also building a FW24 a month ago. Just I am bored enough to get rid of all the CF decals around the chassis that I have jump out and start other kits. I am still wondering around if I am going do a gloss surface on them or just a semi gloss to replicate their true texture.

Back to the pattern itself, I am using S27 CF on these two blocks actually. It is in M size so probably the "lines" would not turn out to be as thin as that on the SMS decals. but I do like this pattern well as I did on my 04 M1 Test bike. So I just go ahead to have it here for 05.

(It's been long for a great technical discussion! In this way we all learn something from it! Please let me know what you think~~ )

Then I guess now I should say good evening! (It's 7AM here...)

When I say that the CF is "glossy," what I mean is that it is very reflective. However, you can still see, within the gloss, the texture. So, with a normal decal, you clear coat it, polish it and voila--it's perfectly smooth. However, the CF parts of the bike aren't that way at all.

One good way of testing my theory is to go to youtube and see if you can find a video or pic of a rear-facing onboard camera. Generally, they're mounted just above (or on) the rear mudguard which almost always is bare CF. When the sun angles low on it, you can see the pattern in the reflection. This says that the gloss isn't smooth, or else it would not show the texture in the reflection.

The Hi-Def CF from SMS has this texture in it. It's like the new 3D CF from S27. Pretty neat stuff. I'll try and post up some pics of my stuff later today (or for you tomorrow morning!). I'm building the '06 Konica Honda and I'm using the above SMS decals. They are really good to work with.

Take care!

Daniel

[Roca46]

Hi guys

There is an interesting conversation right here...

Well I don't know much about CF decals, I worked with some of them a long time ago, I used Studio27 Museum collection SMS and Modelers. I suppose that nowadays the decals are way better than the ones I used in the past although Modelers CF (and for what I heard now SMS) were and are great!

My opinion (about the shine and the matt) is that the rear fender from the Motogp era are glossy, here is an image I took back on 2006 from the 05 bike. It seems like the chain protections and other small parts aren't too much glossy



The carbon fiber parts used on the interior of the bike like the airbox etc.. are matt I suppose because there is no need to give them a shine if those parts will not been seen from the exterior.

But don't know about texture of the decals... never heard of 3D texture from Studio27.

That's an interesting point but you will get the best results by looking at the real bike and testing different decals from different brands on different conditions (flat base etc etc)

But now that I remember on seeing M1 live... the rear fender took my attention because it was shining a lot.. and for what I remember I didn't saw any texture on the surface... it was very smooth like a piece of plastic... but who knows maybe I remembered it wrong.

Roca.

[joeyko2000]

Originally Posted by racer93

Then I guess now I should say good evening! (It's 7AM here...)

When I say that the CF is "glossy," what I mean is that it is very reflective. However, you can still see, within the gloss, the texture. So, with a normal decal, you clear coat it, polish it and voila--it's perfectly smooth. However, the CF parts of the bike aren't that way at all.

One good way of testing my theory is to go to youtube and see if you can find a video or pic of a rear-facing onboard camera. Generally, they're mounted just above (or on) the rear mudguard which almost always is bare CF. When the sun angles low on it, you can see the pattern in the reflection. This says that the gloss isn't smooth, or else it would not show the texture in the reflection.

The Hi-Def CF from SMS has this texture in it. It's like the new 3D CF from S27. Pretty neat stuff. I'll try and post up some pics of my stuff later today (or for you tomorrow morning!). I'm building the '06 Konica Honda and I'm using the above SMS decals. They are really good to work with.

Take care!

Daniel

Ha~ We are actually at the opposite side on the world~! Brilliant AF bring us into this point!!
Yes I understand about the smoothless of those carbon pieces on these bikes. Like I said before, those parts are polished to reach this.
In the modeling world, however, the S27 3D-CF is just about to give such close result closest to real Carbon fibres. Before this, we can hard found any way to replicate such pattern. That is why it has been controversial in choosing CF DECALS. I myself has been working on a lot of CF decals in recent years. And in my opinion, S27 Cartograf is of the best quality and I love doing with it. My second choice will be SMS decals but it has been hard to get here in HK in past few years. So S27 will always be in my pocket and I use them quite a lot~ There are some other CF decal like Modeler's and Crazy modoler's that I found it very cost effective to use in certain parts of certain kit. These sheets that I have just named are all in what I will call "Static pattern" as the pattern will not change with light reflection. In my years of modeling experience, these "Static pattern" has been the major representation for carbon fiber.
Of cause, tech advancement let us reach the moon.(LOL) and now we have S27 3D CF and I am also eager to give them a try. As I get around the Internet looking for actual example of how the result looks like, it seems no one is posting about this 3D decal yet. I really look forward to the pic~ Let us all reach the moon~

[joeyko2000]

Originally Posted by Roca46

Hi guys

There is an interesting conversation right here...

Well I don't know much about CF decals, I worked with some of them a long time ago, I used Studio27 Museum collection SMS and Modelers. I suppose that nowadays the decals are way better than the ones I used in the past although Modelers CF (and for what I heard now SMS) were and are great!

My opinion (about the shine and the matt) is that the rear fender from the Motogp era are glossy, here is an image I took back on 2006 from the 05 bike. It seems like the chain protections and other small parts aren't too much glossy



The carbon fiber parts used on the interior of the bike like the airbox etc.. are matt I suppose because there is no need to give them a shine if those parts will not been seen from the exterior.

But don't know about texture of the decals... never heard of 3D texture from Studio27.

That's an interesting point but you will get the best results by looking at the real bike and testing different decals from different brands on different conditions (flat base etc etc)

But now that I remember on seeing M1 live... the rear fender took my attention because it was shining a lot.. and for what I remember I didn't saw any texture on the surface... it was very smooth like a piece of plastic... but who knows maybe I remembered it wrong.

Roca.

Hi Roca~ (What is your local time now?)
I can't imagine "WHAT" i will look like if I see a M1 live~!!!!!!!
i am now plannign to go to Sepang this Oct~~~ Hoping to get a live touch of my hero~

[Roca46]

Originally Posted by joeyko2000

Hi Roca~ (What is your local time now?)
I can't imagine "WHAT" i will look like if I see a M1 live~!!!!!!!
i am now plannign to go to Sepang this Oct~~~ Hoping to get a live touch of my hero~

Great!!!! Here in spain is 4:37 PM

Believe me, I never saw a race bike until 2006 where I went to the Catalunya race and all those motorcycle shows beautiful shape.. beautiful colours... awesome sound... Those bikes are indescribable...

Cheers!!!
Roca.

[racer93]

Originally Posted by Roca46

Hi guys

There is an interesting conversation right here...

Well I don't know much about CF decals, I worked with some of them a long time ago, I used Studio27 Museum collection SMS and Modelers. I suppose that nowadays the decals are way better than the ones I used in the past although Modelers CF (and for what I heard now SMS) were and are great!

My opinion (about the shine and the matt) is that the rear fender from the Motogp era are glossy, here is an image I took back on 2006 from the 05 bike. It seems like the chain protections and other small parts aren't too much glossy



The carbon fiber parts used on the interior of the bike like the airbox etc.. are matt I suppose because there is no need to give them a shine if those parts will not been seen from the exterior.

But don't know about texture of the decals... never heard of 3D texture from Studio27.

That's an interesting point but you will get the best results by looking at the real bike and testing different decals from different brands on different conditions (flat base etc etc)

But now that I remember on seeing M1 live... the rear fender took my attention because it was shining a lot.. and for what I remember I didn't saw any texture on the surface... it was very smooth like a piece of plastic... but who knows maybe I remembered it wrong.

Roca.

Nice work, Roca!

Check out any rear view camera and you'll see what I'm talking about. It is very textured, but is glossy. It's definitely not smooth. This is what the 3D S27 and Hi Def SMS decals are trying to achieve. The others are just 2 dimentional and the real thing isn't.

Daniel

[joeyko2000]

Well, just to side track a bit, I have further revised the entire exhaust pipe with different shades of clear color + some silvery revision.

[Roca46]

Great work on the exhaust! I just ordered some paints from Alclad 2 called "Hot metals" the colours are hot sepia, hot red and violet if I remember correctly... I will put a report on my website once I use them

Originally Posted by racer93

Nice work, Roca!

Check out any rear view camera and you'll see what I'm talking about. It is very textured, but is glossy. It's definitely not smooth. This is what the 3D S27 and Hi Def SMS decals are trying to achieve. The others are just 2 dimentional and the real thing isn't.

Daniel

Hep! Thank you Daniel!! I should take a look at those decals then... very impressive how they are improving the decal system.

Roca.

[racer93]

Originally Posted by Roca46

Great work on the exhaust! I just ordered some paints from Alclad 2 called "Hot metals" the colours are hot sepia, hot red and violet if I remember correctly... I will put a report on my website once I use them



Hep! Thank you Daniel!! I should take a look at those decals then... very impressive how they are improving the decal system.

Roca.

Yep, they are pretty impressive. They are fairly thick and take quite a bit of micro sol, but they look great straight out of the box.

Are the "hot metal" colors just the transparent reds, blues, etc? Why not just use the tamiya acrylics? They're easier to take off if you screw up (ammonia). Just a thought...

Joe--go more intense on the coloring. The real thing is very discolored. I've had problems being too timid myself. Good work so far, though!

Daniel

[joeyko2000]

Hi Roca, Daniel,

Thanks for the tips about the muffler. (In fact does the term Muffler and Exhaust be of any difference? I am not very good in English anyway...)

At the weathering of the muffler, i used differnet shades of enamal clear colors as fine-tuning. This is the first time I am doing it like this and I think I will be able to manage it better next time with a better control over thinner concentration against the paints. I do think Alcad's clear color will be too thinned for such usage. But I think the technique can be adjusted anyway when it gets to hands on.

For the S27 3D decal, please also note that S27 has stated that clear coating over it is NOT RECOMMANDED. And in my own opinion, the color is also too dark or I would like TOO BLACK. Although the pattern change with light reflections, it still has room for improvement anyway.

[racer93]

Originally Posted by joeyko2000

Hi Roca, Daniel,

Thanks for the tips about the muffler. (In fact does the term Muffler and Exhaust be of any difference? I am not very good in English anyway...)

Muffler is the "silencer" on the exhaust system. It's the big, box-like thing at the end of the exhaust. The term "exhaust" refers to the entire length of the pipe, from the engine to the muffler.

Originally Posted by joeyko2000

For the S27 3D decal, please also note that S27 has stated that clear coating over it is NOT RECOMMANDED. And in my own opinion, the color is also too dark or I would like TOO BLACK. Although the pattern change with light reflections, it still has room for improvement anyway.

I understand that S27 said not to clear coat over it--the reason is that it's very glossy as it is. The older CF decals weren't glossy right after putting them on. Both the SMS Hi Def and the S27 are. Also, they are very dark. That's the way real CF is. That's why (in most cases) SMS and other retailers have said to "darken" the CF decals for more realism.

Keep going on the bike! It's in my pile to do. As I've said, I'm currently working on an RC211V with a Top Studio detail kit. I think I may need a bit of a break (an easier, less intense build) after this one. We shall see...

Daniel

[builder77]

Very good detail and clean work.
Chris

[joeyko2000]

Originally Posted by racer93

Muffler is the "silencer" on the exhaust system. It's the big, box-like thing at the end of the exhaust. The term "exhaust" refers to the entire length of the pipe, from the engine to the muffler.

I understand that S27 said not to clear coat over it--the reason is that it's very glossy as it is. The older CF decals weren't glossy right after putting them on. Both the SMS Hi Def and the S27 are. Also, they are very dark. That's the way real CF is. That's why (in most cases) SMS and other retailers have said to "darken" the CF decals for more realism.

Keep going on the bike! It's in my pile to do. As I've said, I'm currently working on an RC211V with a Top Studio detail kit. I think I may need a bit of a break (an easier, less intense build) after this one. We shall see...

Daniel

Ha~ I shall improve some of my vocab from now on~

Let me try out the 3D CF later this weekend~ After our discussions, I am really eager to give it a try!

I had the exactly same idea as you too about the TS transkit!
I had a try on the 04 M1 last year. And after that, I really need a break from extentive detail building! That's why I have started this 05 M1! but half the way though, I got many more great stuffs and started to pull them together now~~
Add to that is the PIT WALK COLLECIONS that make me crazy!
I saw you lookinu for reference about recent MOTOGP. And I do recommend this reference books and all you will see in this reference books will allows you to build most of the stuffs you can in 1:12~

Below are the urls for my 04M1:
http://www.joeyko.com/diary/rossi_m1_sepang2004.htm
http://www.joeyko.com/gallery/rossi_m1_sepang2004.htm