1995 Buick Park Avenue Just Dies - No Warning

[LadySmith]

I have a 1995 Buick Park Avenue. It just randomly will go dead. You never know when it's gonna do it. It could be while you're at a red light or stop sign or while you're slowing down to come to a red light or whatever. But, it can also happen when you're going 65 mph down the road. There's no pattern at all; when it decides to do it, it just does it.

When it does go dead, sometimes you can put it in neutral and it will crank right up..no problems. Other times, it will not crank. Then, after it sits a little while, it will finally crank up.

This can happen at any time. You could drive a 45 min. drive and it not go dead at all. Other times, you could only make a 15 min. trip to the store and it will go dead 3 times. Just whenever it decides to.

The problem seems to have gotten worse over time. It used to be maybe once a month or so, it would go dead only when coasting up to a red light or something or into the driveway and it would crank right up. Now, it will happen when it sees fit (most of the time a few times a day) and sometimes won't crank right back up.

A few weeks ago, I ended up being stranded and had to be towed. That ended up being the upper intake manifold, which my husband replaced, along with an oil/filter and spark plug change. That evidently had nothing to do with this pre-existing problem of the car going dead.

The check engine light is NOT on. There are no codes.

My husband replaced the fuel pump and fuel filter and it is still having the same problem.

We're not sure what it could be. We're going to check all the grounds that we can find and clean them and make sure they're tight.

Things that have been suggested to us are:
- check grounds
- ICM
- crank shaft position sensor
- fuel pump relay
- ECM/PCM
- fuel pressure regulator (FPR)


I've read many threads on a few forums, but in particular, I read this entire thread:

http://www.automotiveforums.com/vbul...or+replacement

which has a lot of similarities that my car is experiencing...only I have no codes and I don't have check engine light on or anything like that.

We know how it is when you just start replacing things how it can easily turn into $$$$ (which we don't have much of...LOL) and then it still isn't fixed and you have to go to the next suggestion.

Today the car went dead while idling. It would not start. Hubby checked the line going to the FPR -- no fuel. He got me to turn the switch on a few times and he didn't hear the fuel pump, therefore no fuel pressure. Then, I turned the switch on again and he heard the fuel pump and it would have started (according to him) only the battery was dead. We've got to get a new battery now too I do think because right now my car has been sitting at my mother-in-law's and the other day it wouldn't crank at all...dead battery. As soon as I jumped it off, it cranked. That was just a couple days ago. Today it wouldn't crank, jumped it off, it cranked but idled just a few minutes and went dead (because of this current problem). Then, this issue with the fuel pump not kicking on and at a time that I would have cranked, it wouldn't because of a dead battery.

Anyway, besides a dead battery...this issue of going dead...since at times the fuel pump (which is new) is not kicking in sometimes, what could it be? Or is the new fuel pump we got bad?

[Scrapper]

get fuel pump put on it see what pressure running? but i say maf sensor is your problem. and when it dies it starts right bak up don't it?

[Scrapper]

Originally Posted by scrapper1

get fuel pump put on it see what pressure running? but i say maf sensor is your problem. and when it dies it starts right bak up don't it?

when it dies you have to be ready to hold on steering will because you losse power sterring and your vaccum to brakes it will be a hard pedal so be ready.

good luck..

scrapper1

[LadySmith]

Hubby put on a new fuel pump and filter and he said it shows the correct pressure, but sometimes it doesn't when it stalls.

It will not always crank right back up. Sometimes it has to sit awhile.

Oh, and I know about the no power steering issue when it stalls....already happened and I have to try to get off the road if it won't crank. Sometimes if I put it in neutral, it will crank right back up, but sometimes it won't and I have to try to coast over to the side of the road (with no power steering).

Someone did mention MAF to hubby, but then he was told that this was something about only when accelerating. My car will die whether accelerating or not. It will die while idling, coasting to a stop sign or red light, or going 65 mph whether the accelerator is pressed or not.

Is there any truth to that about the MAF?

[Scrapper]

ok have you had the coil pack tested and the module that sets under coil packs? anyway i thought module diid you have that checked? thats the way like i said maf put one on ran fine. but you want to remove coil pack or sometime there three piece remove them and look see if module a a burn on top of it..

[LadySmith]

Originally Posted by scrapper1

ok have you had the coil pack tested and the module that sets under coil packs? anyway i thought module diid you have that checked? thats the way like i said maf put one on ran fine. but you want to remove coil pack or sometime there three piece remove them and look see if module a a burn on top of it..

We haven't had the coil packs tested. We were told that if it was that, the car would probably run real rough. It runs smooth as silk until it dies.

Tonight we had the ignition control module that sets under the coil packs. They ran it through 7 or 8 times and it passed, but when he handed it to me, it was not hardly warm at all..nothing like the engine heat. Should we have it tested again elsewhere?

Also, we've checked some of the grounds...and all seem fine. We even checked the ground busses that run in the driver and passenger door sills and those along the fender. We have not yet checked any of the wiring between the ICM, PCM and crank shaft position sensor.

The dilemma we're dealing with right now about this is...since the ignition control module tested fine, we're thinking it's either the CKPS or the PCM or any of the wiring going to those, which we'll check tomorrow.

Well, the PCM cost way more than the CKPS, BUT the CKPS is a real pain to change out or so I've heard. The guy at the auto parts told us that if we get a PCM and it doesn't correct the problem that we can bring it back. So, even though it cost more, we're thinking about maybe going ahead and trying it instead of trying to tackle the CKPS right now. But first, we're going to check the wiring between those.

A guy tonight tried to tell us it could be the fuel pressure regulator (FPR), but I've read that if it's bad, there would be fuel coming from the vac line to it, and there's not.

Also, somewhere I've read that a test for an oil pressure switch is that while the car is running, you could remove the fuel pump relay and if the engine dies that it's the oil pressure switch. Well, we did this and the engine did die. But, we also did the same thing on my mother-in-law's car (same 3800 engine -- Oldsmobile 88) and her engine died as well. So, I'm not sure about that test.

Ugh! This is driving me nuts!

[HotZ28]

Originally Posted by LadySmith

Anyway, besides a dead battery...this issue of going dead...since at times the fuel pump (which is new) is not kicking in sometimes, what could it be? Or is the new fuel pump we got bad?

Obviously, if the fuel pump does not run when you turn the ignition switch ON, you will not have fuel pressure. The fuel pump electrical circuit is quite simple (see schematic below). The PCM provides a ground on the (DG/W) wire for the relay and the ignition switch provides battery voltage. When the relay energizes, (assuming it does) battery power is passed on from the ignition switch (pink wire) through the relay and then on to the fuel pump via the grey wire. Do you have 12v on the grey wire @ the fuel pump terminal (near tank) when the pump does not run?

[LadySmith]

OK, got a new battery for starters. LOL

Today, we went ahead and put in a Fuel Pump Relay just to rule it out since it's cheap. We looked at a lot of wiring, but boy it's confusing when you're trying to trace where something's going and can't see it anymore. It's almost as if you'd have to pull the whole engine out to find out where it is.

I still haven't been able to find the PCM. We did check the wiring on the ICM as far as we could trace it without removing everything. We checked the ground busses and the wires behind the passenger side glove box.

Hubby used cleaner specifically made for these electrical parts even though he said that they all appeared to be clean and tightly connected.

He cleaned the battery terminals very very well.

He cranked the car and it died after 15 minutes of just sitting there idling.

He heard the fuel pump kick on and said that it would crank and it did. It sit there idling about 45 min or so until we just turned it off to go eat.

When we came back out there, he went under the rear passenger side tire to look at that wiring that goes to the fuel pump. He said everything looks nice and clean, but he cleaned them anyway and reconnected them.

Then, he decided to take a closer look at the FPR. Fuel does not come out of it when you pull that vac line off of it. So, he took it out and examine it. The little filter thing inside that thing was badly corroded. He cleaned that out and replaced it.

Well, he went ahead and cranked the car since it was getting late and we really wanted to get our car out of mother-in-law's yard if possible. It sit there and idled about 30 minutes or so. Hubby drove it home and I followed him in his truck. We got home and the car never stalled any. I got in the car and we took it for several miles. It was running beautifully.

I decided to get him to pull in a gas station and get gas. I wanted to know if this stalling sometimes might have something to do with stop-and-go...like out and about running errands...turning the engine off and then back on, etc.

We went miles and miles and the thing never died once.

Could the corroded fuel pressure regulator have had something to do with it? I mean, could it fail sometimes like when it's stopped up it thinks it has enough fuel and therefore the fuel pump doesn't get the signal to send more fuel?

Hubby wants me to drive around tomorrow as much as I can to see if it stalls. Believe me, I've already put the cash in my wallet for a tow truck in case it's needed...LOL

I'm just wondering if something he did with the connections back there at the fuel pump or this issue with the FPR might have possibly fixed it.

If this didn't do anything, why is there so much improvement? This problem has slowly been progressing. It started out that maybe once every few months, the car would die while coasting into the driveway or at red lights/stop signs...and then crank right back up.

Then, it just got worse and worse that maybe a coupld of times a week it would go dead even while driving 65 mph. Sometimes it will start right back up and sometimes it takes turning the key off and on a few times and then the fuel pump will kick in and then it will crank.

Then, it just got worse...to the point that I couldn't make it 3 miles down the road without it at least going dead once if not more. I wasn't able to go anywhere on a daily basis with it without it dying on me.

I just wonder if whatever he did fixed it or if we're still going to back at square 1 of trying to figure out if it's the ICM or PCM (by the way, where is the PCM located on this car?).

Is there any way from what I described about it being dirty inside cause the intermittent stalling problem we've been having? Would anything to do with that cause there to be no fuel pressure there on the fuel rail and then turn the key on a couple of times, the fuel pump kicks on and then it will crank.?

Maybe tomorrow I can update if it stalled on me or not.

[Scrapper]

that sounds like maf. no warning it just dies. other than that coils and modules go bad. stop in the zone and let them check your maf,coil pack plus they can tell if coil pack are all hitting.

[LadySmith]

Originally Posted by scrapper1

that sounds like maf. no warning it just dies. other than that coils and modules go bad. stop in the zone and let them check your maf,coil pack plus they can tell if coil pack are all hitting.

Thanks for your reply. From what I've read, most of the time when it's MAF is when you're accelerating. Is that true? This thing dies no matter if you're coasting, idling, or going 65 mph down the road.

We've thought about the coil packs, but someone mentioned that it would probably run pretty rough if that was it...this thing runs smooth as silk until it just dies.

Well, it STILL isn't fixed. I don't know if the cooler weather last night (along with light misting rain) had anything to do with it not going dead.

But, today I just got back from driving the thing and thought I was going to have to end up getting towed home.

Whatever it is, seems to be progressively getting worse.

I made it about 13 minutes from the house going 65 mph (other cars zoom by at 75+) and the thing went dead. I had no power steering and trying to slow down enough to get off on the side of the road (which isn't paved...it's loose gravel). I put my flashers on and I turned the key on and off several times. I tried to crank several times and it wouldn't. I didn't have a fuel gauge on it, but from experience I know when it does that that the fuel pump isn't pumping. Turned the key on a few more times and then finally the fuel pump starts and the car will start.

Then, I started back home and got about 2 miles from my house and the thing quit again! Luckily this road wasn't as busy. I sat there turning the key off and on and finally after about 5 minutes the thing cranked up and I made it home.

I have to attempt it again after while when I go pick up my son from school. Ugh!!!

Of all these possible things it could be, what is the most likely culprit?

I'm literally going to be bald pretty soon!!

[Scrapper]

yes the maf it just dies at any speed. my moms did that and i took it to advanced they check it i thought it was module but no it came up maf.

[LadySmith]

Originally Posted by scrapper1

yes the maf it just dies at any speed. my moms did that and i took it to advanced they check it i thought it was module but no it came up maf.

I've called AutoZone, Advance, and O'Reillys that's here in my town and they say that they can't scan my car since the check engine light isn't on and plus since it's a 1995 (OBD I , I assume). I asked them do they do any kind of testing on mass air flow sensors and they said no.

Isn't the MAF one of the ones that's pretty pricey?

See, I just hate to guess and start putting $$$$ out there on random parts that may or may not fix it.


Update: Hubby talked to a mechanic at our local Buick dealer. He said the first and foremost problem that he would first correct and that it very well could be causing our problem is to change the fuel pump that we just bought (whatever brand Advance sells) to an AC Delco one.

I understand that it very well could be....and in time we might end up getting an AC Delco fuel pump for it, but I just feel that relying on that to solve this problem is a shot in the dark...the same as if we just blindly went and bought an ICM, or ECM, or whatever...in hopes of fixing it.

I'm going crazy here!

[LadySmith]

Oh, and another update:

I went and got my son at school earlier and it didn't go dead any there or back (only about 3.5 miles from my house).

When I got back, I turned the car off for maybe 30 minutes. Then, I went and cranked it up and let it sit there idling for about 30 minutes or so while I sat in the car and watched to see if I saw any lights come on for maybe a split second or any of the gauges go wacky in the event it went dead (because you know when you're driving down the road, you may not necessarily notice it if it's just for a second or something and then goes dead). Well, the thing wouldn't go dead!

I turned it off and let it sit about an hour or so, then cranked it again. It sat and idled a while. I did various things, hoping if I could see ANYTHING that may trigger it. I rolled window down a little, then back up. I turned the radio on, changed stations, turned the air on, up, down, back off a while, back on, gave it a little gas every once in a while, etc...just various things that someone might do while they're driving. The thing still wouldn't go dead!!

I almost guarantee, though, if I even attempted to go 2 miles up the road, it would go dead. Is there an icon for pulling hair out?! LOL

[Scrapper]

huh advanced did her 92 pa and the only thing that came up was maf i thought 0-2 would come up also but it never just maf then got a friend that gives us discount it was ray rudd buick. they can even take a key and put it to it. they done my 91 s10 i've heard of people say they couldn't get it done on modules but they can coil packs. i had a 87 pa and i couldn't figure it out and had it put on machine at good year ran fine on machine but there was a bad ground on it but they never figured it out where. so i done more research on it and i came up with module so i spent 80 bucks i'm thinking and it ran fine. if they want to do it they can but apears they didn't for you...sorry.....

[Scrapper]

Originally Posted by LadySmith

Oh, and another update:

I went and got my son at school earlier and it didn't go dead any there or back (only about 3.5 miles from my house).

When I got back, I turned the car off for maybe 30 minutes. Then, I went and cranked it up and let it sit there idling for about 30 minutes or so while I sat in the car and watched to see if I saw any lights come on for maybe a split second or any of the gauges go wacky in the event it went dead (because you know when you're driving down the road, you may not necessarily notice it if it's just for a second or something and then goes dead). Well, the thing wouldn't go dead!

I turned it off and let it sit about an hour or so, then cranked it again. It sat and idled a while. I did various things, hoping if I could see ANYTHING that may trigger it. I rolled window down a little, then back up. I turned the radio on, changed stations, turned the air on, up, down, back off a while, back on, gave it a little gas every once in a while, etc...just various things that someone might do while they're driving. The thing still wouldn't go dead!!

I almost guarantee, though, if I even attempted to go 2 miles up the road, it would go dead. Is there an icon for pulling hair out?! LOL

yes that's the 92 did no warning.then you can start it right back cant you?
and then you'll never no when it will die. i know this is second time i replyed back today.hey try to take maf apart and clean the screen then you'll no maf if it is maf sensor.