92 Park Avenue Popping sound and maybe misfire?

[1534dover]

I need some diagnostic help. I bought my 92 Park Avenue in 2000. The guy I bought it from said there would be popping sound at times when it first started up. He said he took it to the dealer who tested it and said, “This car just does that. Nothing to worry about.” It doesn’t happen every time. I’ve used the car on that basis for five and half years. At times, the popping sound would be there, at times not. It sort of goes pop, pop, pop, pop, pop. Then it runs smoothly.
This last month, I have had problems with the starter. The car would start cold, but after it got hot, the starter would turn but it wouldn’t turn the engine over. After it cooled off ten to twenty minutes the starter would turn the engine over and start the car. This was so predictable that I could use the car around town on that basis. I decided that the cure was to install a new starter. However, when coming home the last time before doing so, the car stalled. I coasted to a stop, waited ten minutes and the car started again. However, I then heard some louder bangs and the engine wouldn’t accelerate normally. It got me home, however. I figured I had to separate problems, starter and the misfire. I installed the new starter over the weekend. It works fine. However, I am hesitant to go anywhere because of the other problem.
Now, when I start the car, the popping sound is there again and predictively goes away. However, If I rev up the engine and then back off there can be enough loud knocks to discourage me from driving outside our neighborhood. I had the wife rev up the engine so I could open the hood and listen. These sounds appear to becoming from the area between the firewall and the engine, about where the oxygen sensor is located. What do I do about it?

[HotZ28]

I have the same knock sound when I rev engine and it backs down in my Ultra, and it is coming from the transmission. I have a friend who worked at GM for 30 yrs building the Buicks and transmissions. I let him here the noise, and (without hesitation), he described the noise as a reverse idler or hub assembly, very common problem on the 4T60E. I asked him what to expect if I choose to continue driving it like that and if it fails completely. He said that if it fails completely, “you will not have a reverse”. Well, I decided to take my chances with that diagnosis and postpone a rebuild until it failed. I have been driving it for two years & 36K and it is still making the same noise. It may fall apart tomorrow; however I got a lot of time and use out of it so far!!

[1534dover]

I believe you have nailed it completely! I checked around with transmission shops and estimates for rebuilding run from $2,000 to $2,500 depending on what they find. That of course, is too much to pay to repair a '92. Doing the work myself is beyond my knowledge and ability, so that's out. I doubt that anyone else would purchase it from me so that means I am left with driving it until it drops. If I have your luck I'll be happy. I would be interesting in heaing about anyone else's experience with the 4T60E transmission.

[HotZ28]

You might consider a salvage yard. A good low mileage trans should go for no more than $400.00. I had several firm price quotes in my area from $1000. to $1200 to rebuild the trans. I wonder why your shops are double that? Also, beware of the guys who say "it depends on what the problem is". That is the best way to take you to the cleaners. Just ask a firm price for a total rebuild, including everything.

[1534dover]

As you probably see from my other post, even though I replaced the starter, that problem hasn't gone away. Once again, it fails to start when hot and then it cools off again it starts. Are these two problems related?

[HotZ28]

No, the problems are not related. Do you have any codes? It could be you cam sensor, crank sensor, or ESC module. The link below might help, however it is long and windy. Just absorb the relevant and ignore the irrelevant.

http://www.automotiveforums.com/vbul...or+replacement
Crank position sensor - '95 LeSabre Dies Without Warning

[1534dover]

Well, so far I can see that he wasted a lot of time and money searching for a solution but I can't see that he actually found one. And the shops he took it to didn't find it either. So the solution isn't obvious. In my case, the problem doesn't usually stall the car. It did stall once yesterday for my wife. I drove it around for twenty minutes trying to get it to stall and it wouldn't. So this would eliminate the failure of parts which usually cause stalling.

[HotZ28]

Actually he did solve the problem, if you go to page five, post two, of the link. Here it is:

http://www.automotiveforums.com/vbul...or+replacement

[1534dover]

Thanks for sticking with me on this. Hard to believe I don't have a decent piece of jumper wire to bridge terminals A and B, so I can read the codes but I don't. I'll have to pick something up this afternoon. However, I did investigate the link once more. I see that he did solve the problem by having a shop do the work. Now, out here we have Schucks Auto Supply. They are called Checker, or Kragen in other parts of the country. The store manager said that replacing the sensor itself does not involve all the mechanical work discussed on the link. Just the rings do. He said it could be done in a about twenty minutes, he thought. The Buick dealer wants $183.00 to do it figuring the labor ats 1.3 hours at $84.87 an hour with $10 shop time. The mechanic I have gone to for years quoted me $74.80 for 1.5 hours labor. He's still looking up the cost of the part. What is your opinion on the amount of labor necessary to replace the crank position sensor?

[HotZ28]

(Quote)
The store manager said that replacing the sensor itself does not involve all the mechanical work discussed on the link. Just the rings do.

If the Schucks-Kragen-Checker guy can do it in twenty minutes, I would hire him on the side to do it for you! He must be Superman!

If you have all the right tools and part required, it should take about an hour to replace. The shops quote a standard labor rate for each job. They usually refer to the labor book for an estimate of time required to do the work. If they do it in half the time estimated in the book, they just make more money. Fair price would be, $150.00 to $175.00.



Here are two part numbers for you. Just pick up the part and hand it to your mechanic and say; please install this for me.

GP Sorensen CSS9
Crankshaft Position Sensor; 4 Pin
$27

Niehoff Ignition DR1427
Crankshaft Position Sensor: Sensor Only
$35

[1534dover]

haven't managed to get the diagnostic code reader to flash yet. It is safe to assume that it is the crankshaft sensor without checking the codes?

[HotZ28]

If you disconnected the battery during the starter install, you cleared your codes. Drive it until it gives another problem and hopefully you will have a code.

Diagnostic Trouble Codes - 1991 Buick

13 Open Oxygen Sensor Circuit
14 Coolant Temperature Sensor (High Temp Indicated)
15 Coolant Temperature Sensor (Low Temp Indicated)
16 System Voltage High
17 RPM Signal Problem
21 Throttle Position Sensor (Signal Voltage High)
22 Throttle Position Sensor (Signal Voltage Low)
23 Manifold Air Temperature (MAT) Circuit (Low Sig.)
24 Vehicle Speed Sensor (VSS) Circuit
25 Manifold Air Temperature (MAT) High Temp Indicated
26 Quad-Driver (QDM) Circuit
31 Park/Neutral Switch Circuit
34 Mass Air Flow Sensor (MAF) (GM/SEC Low)
36 Transaxle Shift Control Problem
38 Brake Input Circuit
39 Torque Converter Clutch (TCC) Circuit
42 Electronic Spark Timing (EST) Circuit
43 Electronic Spark Control (ESC) Circuit
44 Oxygen Sensor Circuit (Lean Exhaust Indicated)
45 Oxygen Sensor Circuit (Rich Exhaust Indicated)
46 Power Steering Pressure Switch (PSPS) Circuit
48 Misfire Diagnosis
51 Mem-Cal Error
58 Personal Automotive Security System Circuit.
61 Cruise Vent Solenoid Circuit.
62 Cruise Vacuum Solenoid Circuit.
65 Cruise Servo Position Circuit.
66 Low A/C Refrigerant Charge.
67 Cruise Switches Circuit.
68 Cruise System Problem.
69 A/C Head Pressure Switch Circuit.

Assembly Line Communication Link (ALDL) connector;

Ground terminals A and B with the ignition "ON" and engine not running. The system will enter the diagnostic mode. In this mode, the computer will display a 12, three consecutive times, by flashing the "CHECK ENGINE", "SERVICE ENGINE SOON" or "MALFUNCTION INDICATOR LAMP" or light. A 12 consists of one flash, a short pause, then two flashes in rapid succession.
After 12 is displayed, any stored trouble will be displayed by flashing the "CHECK ENGINE", "SERVICE ENGINE SOON" or "MALFUNCTION INDICATOR LAMP" light. All are displayed 3 times each then a 12 will repeat. In the diagnostic mode, the computer will also energize all computer controlled relays and solenoids.

[1534dover]

I was looking at the diagnostic block upside down and trying to connect G to H. H on this block is an empy space so I didn't cause any damage. As expected, there was one flash, a pause and two flashes. This sequence repeated two more times. Then it flashed once, paused and then flashed seven times. This should be error code 17. This is the only stored code which is accounted for by my disconnecting the battery to install the new starter. After the code 17, it returns to code 12. Two other things happened, however, the radiator fan (maybe both fans, I didn't check) ran. (80 degrees in my garage if that would effect it) and a green "cruise" word lit up on the same light up strip where the "check engine light" is located. Referring back to Post #5 on this thread, Sunday I drove the car around for twenty minutes but it would not stall. Upon parking it in the garage, I tried to restart it and the starting problem reappeared, so this code would be generated by that starting failure. (Upon cooling off, course it started.) According to your list code 17 is an rpm signal problem. What's next?

[HotZ28]

(quote)
I tried to restart it and the starting problem reappeared, so this code would be generated by that starting failure. (Upon cooling off, course it started.) According to your list code 17 is an rpm signal problem. What's next?

You will never generate a code starting the engine. It has to be running, and one of the inputs to the PCM fail to function within its parameters. I would have to say the RPM signal is generated by the crank sensor.

[1534dover]

Oh, I see. Engine not running, no codes.
Quote "In the diagnostic mode, the computer will also energize all computer controlled relays and solenoids." Is that why the fan(s) come on and the "cruise" light comes on?
Do you recommend more driving to see if other codes develop or am I ready for the crank sensor replacement? I plan to take it to the least expensive repair shop Friday.