What are ALL the symptoms of a worn out Manual Transmission ?

[DOCTORBILL]

Main seal, huh ?

Do you have or know of a link that has pictures of the Flywheel being taken off of
a Metro ?

Also any pics of the Rear Main Seal (RMS) being replaced....?
I could add them to the INDEXUS !

Can I get the RMS at Schucks ?

I might as well go for broke !

If you go back to my 1-17 post in the Pull & Save yard, can you tell me if that
Metro that I pulled the Transmission from was an XFI....or from the Vin No. I showed
a photo of ?

I'm still confused by all the posts whether my car is the same as that car.

Is it safe to give my Vin No. out on an open public forum ?

That is to say - would the trans I got from the Pull & Save match mine identically ?

I don't race around like a madman, so whatever Flywheel I have is just fine with me...
I'd just like to know if I need to get it turned.

If I can lay a flat edge of a ruler over it and see no curve - will it be OK ?

I suppose, if the Transmission I pulled recently is the same as mine, I will
rebuild that and then exchange it for mine, do the clutch and RMS on the engine.

Is it difficult to get the clutch on straight?

The Clutch box has Loud and Specific warnings on it about screwing up the
alignment of engine and transmission - voids any warranty. Has me worried.

DoctorBill

[Crvett69]

once you take off old pressure plate and clutch you will see the bolts in the center holding flywheel in place, this is where a air or electric impact would be handy to break them loose. once you have bolts out it will fall or come off with a light tug. inspect it closely for heat discolored areas or small cracks in surface, if it has those it should be turned. it has a recessed surface so it would be real hard to get accurate reading with a straight edge. you can get a exchange one from shucks fairly cheap that has a new ring gear and has been surfaced. behind it you will see a aluminum plate with the rear main seal in the center of it around the crank, you can gently pry it out with a screwdriver. don't mess with the aluminum plate if you can help it, leave it bolted on. to install i lube up the seal lip and install it with the flat side of seal facing away from motor, you will see how it came out. as i am starting the seal i will put the top of the seal on part way and then gently pull down as i push it in, this helps to keep seal lip from rolling over as you install it. once its on then you can use a extension or something flat to tap it in the rest of the way. don't use a screwdriver as its to pointed and will dent it. once you have ot in put it in as far as the bevel on the inside of the aluminum plate, if you look close you will see it. it goes in about .015 or so. something i like to do to make sure it stays in place is using a chisel i put a couple stakes in the aluminum housing so that they intrude inward slightly and keep seal from coming back out. as far as tranny goes from what i have been able to find out the tag on it is more or less a serial number and i have no way to desipher it. if you look at the car bumper it will give you a clue as to what car is, if bumper is all black its a base model or possibly a xfi though they usually mark that on the side of doors, if the top part of bumber has been painted its a normal metro, if the entire bumper has been painted its a lsi. the normal and lsi use the same tranny, the xfi uses a higher freeway gear ratio but will still work just fine. your still welcome to head over this way and take a afternoon putting it and seal in in comfort on a hoist, beats laying on your back. if you want to see what any of the parts look like i have a rebuilt short block on a stand i could take pics of and send to you

[DOCTORBILL]

Well Crevett69, I really appreciate your offer to help out !

The likelyhood of my getting over to the coast approaches nil, however.

Between my teaching and my wife's job, I NEVER go anywhere ! It is pitiful !

If you have a rebuilt engine with the flywheel off or even on, photos would be
nice for all of us.

I suppose Way will have some photos of that part of the job once he gets
all his parts in house, too.

The more, the merrier !

My spare Transmission is washed off, I have the Clutch set but am waiting for
several things...

1. To get over the miserable cold I now have.
2. The Transmission Rebuild Kit to arrive.
3. Figuring out where in my cluttered work area that I will do this job !
4. The desire to get off my butt to somehow magically appear.....

It has been hovering near 20° F almost constantly here in Spokane, so I will
have to work in my "basement" computer room. This Transmission stinks !

It is eminating a smell that hurts your throat after a while ! What is THAT all about ?!

I cleaned it....must be that GUNK got into the Aluminum pores !

DoctorBill

PS - Is this the Rear Main Seal I need to get?
http://www.partsamerica.com/ProductL...pe=105&PTSet=A

[Crvett69]

smell is probably the 90w that was in the tranny, it really stinks. the part you want is fel-pro BS 40522

[DOCTORBILL]

The OIL stinks !

Now that I never would have guessed.

Maybe I should pour some paint thinner (mineral spirits) into the unit and shake it - huh?

Funny story....

When I went ot the Spray Car Wash place, I couldn't push the Half Shafts back
into the transmission !

Must be some trick to that endeavor....(?)

So I stuffed paper towels into the hole as hard as I could - to keep the water out.

If I were to "rinse" the transmission out with solvent, how can I plug the
differential holes tightly.

Any suggestions on what to use ?

I am on my way to Schucks to get the Fel Pro seal. Thanks again !

Then I'm going home to rest and hack up big goobers until this damned cold
goes away ! At almost 66, colds feel much worse than they used to.

During lecture this morning, I sounded like Darth Vader underwater with molasses in my mouth....

DoctorBill

[Rooy]

Originally Posted by DOCTORBILL

The OIL stinks !

Now that I never would have guessed.

Maybe I should pour some paint thinner (mineral spirits) into the unit and shake it - huh?

If I were to "rinse" the transmission out with solvent, how can I plug the
differential holes tightly.

Yep, gear oil stinks. I believe it's the EP additives that gives it that nasty sulfur-ish smell.

I wouldn't put any solvents in there unless you're planning on replacing all the seals (input, outputs, shift selector).

[Woodie83]

Synchromesh, besides being the best oil for our gearboxes, doesn't stink like that.

[DOCTORBILL]

Bought the Rear Main seal from PartsAmerica (Schucks). Looked huge !

Got home and next day checked the Part Number again on PA's web site....

They gave me the wrong part number ! Going back Monday for the right one...

Looked in Chilton's "Manual" page 3-18 and it says, "Note: when the flywheel is removed,
it is a good idea to replace the rear main oil seal and the pilot bushing."

What is the pilot bushing ?

DoctorBill

[Crvett69]

pilot bearing/bushing is whats pressed into the flywheel. what part number did they give you, sometimes they carry more than 1 part number for same aplication. any of these will work, SKF 26749 or fel-pro BS 40522 or beck/arnley 052-3390

[DOCTORBILL]

So the Pilot Bushing is also the Spigot bearing that came with my Clutch Kit ?

It is a small Ball Bearing Race - it is 3 cm OD and the Hole for the Shaft is 1 cm.

The Rear Main Seal they gave me is for a 3 Liter Engine (various makes) with the
part number 40562. Should have been 40522. They'll exchange in on Monday.

Random screw up....happens every day. No worries.

Hey guys! PM me with some GOOD links from here for the INDEX !

I would like to put that link to the Shop Manual into the INDEX, but for the life of me,
I cannot find it !

I want to put INDEX links to the shop manual for each different part of the car,
plus a link to the entire shop manual (if there is one) at the beginning of the INDEX.

Been doing SEARCHES - No wonder no one wants to use the "SEARCH" function -
you get mountains of crap!

Do you all know why !? The titles of the threads don't use good "Keywords" to
help searchers find your Threads...and I've done exactly that myself.

One doesn't realize that these Threads are being saved for posterior...

Is there an exploded view of the 3 cyl engine ?

DoctorBill

[DOCTORBILL]

I was just at a local Clutch Repair shop I've used twice now for other vehicles.

"Clutchland" - Spokane, WA 509-487-0161 KEITH

Talked to the guy (a fountain of information!) about the noises coming from
my transmission when I start it up COLD.

He said to dump the 90 weight "Transmission Fluid" crap and put 10W-40 Motor Oil
into the manual transmission.

That is what he refills them with.

Makes them last longer and is lubricating in COLD WEATHER - whereas the 90W stuff
the manual says to use is way the Hell too thick when the weather gets cold.

He says all those noises will stop happening !

Sounds right to me.

He insists that 10W-40 is the best to use and this is his business....

So...being the wise off that I am - I just bought 2 quarts of "Formula Shell" 20W-50 which
I will use in this Transmission when I am done. (Slightly heavier oil)

Please - you synchromesh advocates - don't start yelling at me !

DoctorBill

[DOCTORBILL]

Decided to add some light weight oil to my transmission as per the local "Clutchland" shop owner told me to...

So I bought a Battery Filler "Turkey Baster" bulb and fitted it with a small plastic tube and added
about ½ Quart of 5W - 30 motor oil to the transmission thru the second bolt hole for the Clutch Lever (see previous posts).

I had filled it with ~2 quarts of 80W - 90 Valvoline "Durablend" last Fall after draining it.

The noises have gone away ! Shifting has not changed after several days.

Since I rebuilt a 5 speed for a '94 3 cyl Metro:

94 Metro 5 Speed Manual Transmission Rebuild

94 Metro 5 Speed Manual Transmission Rebuild - PART 2 - Assembly

I am familiar with where the gears and shafts are in relation to the Drain and fill plugs, so I took this Photo



to help understand where the Oil must be.

As you can see, the Gears and Ball Bearings are probably not immersed in oil after setting all night
and don't get well lubricated when you start the engine cold (like 15° F)...

I would imagine that adding a half of a quart more oil shouldn't hurt at all.

Once you start driving, the oil would be thrown to the case sides and be even lower as regards the Gears.

By adding ½ Quart of 5W - 30 (one pint), I probably now have 20% lower oil weight.
Two Quarts normally - 4 pints plus my 1 pint = 5 pints of oil.
4 parts 80W - 90 (80%) --- 1 part 5W - 30 (20%) Probably about 65W now.

BTW - the oil cannot get higher than the Speedometer Cable Port on the left side near the Oil Fill Plug
or it would overflow and come out, since this Port is open to the outside.

Page 1-47 of the Chilton Manual gives the 5 speed transmission "capacity" as 2.5 quarts.
Anyone trying to fill this bugger knows it only takes 2 quarts - if that, before it dribbles out of the fill port hole !

So my adding another ½ Quart should be OK....besides - it worked - no noise.

DoctorBill

[Woodie83]

80W-90 is too thick, by adding motor oil (which is not formulated for the different needs of a transmission) you have thinned it down nearer to what you should have put in in the first place.

I have drained and refilled MANY a Metro transmission, and they've always taken 2.5 quarts. You're either not on level ground, or the thick oil you're putting in takes longer to drain out.

This transmission takes 2.5 quarts of Synchromesh. Period. That's what works best AND gives better mileage.

[DOCTORBILL]

I quote from the Chilton Manual....page 1-39

"Manual Transaxle:
When adding fluid or refilling the manual transaxle always use GL-5, 80W or 80W - 90 weight gear oil."

Woodie83, you advocate Synchromesh gear oil in reply...

If I should follow your advice, why would I not follow the advice of a clutch and transmission shop owner,
where both of you advocate NOT FOLLOWING the manual's recommendation ?

As a reader of these threads here, folks would throw up their hands in wonder.

Besides - what is the weight of "Synchromesh" gear oil and why use it ?
Does it come in various weights ?

It would seem that every person writing on this forum has his own favorite gear oil and really has no argument
for or against other than they "like it."

I'm not trying to be a butt - however...who is right ?

Is there a "right" or "wrong" ?

The Clutch Shop owner recommended 20W - 50 motor oil and he routinely rebuilds Geo (and other) transmissions.
He's been there since sedimentary rock formed - longer than dirt.

I think part of the problem is - depends on the climate where one lives.

Here it gets down to the low 10's or below in winter and these Gear Oils are like Tar at that temp.

If you live in Arizona, Nevada or Texas or Louisiana - the oil is probably thin right out the driveway.

Also - the Transmission does not get anywhere near as hot as the engine and the pressures on the oil are
not very great. Slipperiness is probably paramount.

As to filling with 2.5 Quarts - I drained mine right after driving home for about a hour - no drops were coming
out, so I sealed it up and filled it - took about 1.8 Quarts before coming out the fill hole.

The extra ½ Quart of motor oil I added has quieted down my transmission when I start up
in the morning - more than likely because the oil now covers the Large Ball Bearings on the
Input Shaft End - right from the get go.

Really, I am of the mind to just add oil to the transmission thru the Bolt Hole on top until it starts
coming out the Speedometer Cable Connector.

I am going to try running a thin wood dowel down that Bolt Hole to see where the oil is in the transmission.

Sort of a "dip Stick" if you will.

DoctorBill over the Hill

[brivers]

I don't want to get in the middle of this discussion about gear oil, (personally I use 80 weight, but I live in a mid Atlantic state) and if someone wants to put gasoline in the tranny, go right ahead.
Dr. Bill made a comment about the speedo gear.

Really, I am of the mind to just add oil to the transmission thru the Bolt Hole on top until it starts
coming out the Speedometer Cable Connector.

You don't want to do this.
I recently had a problem Where I started smelling gear oil inside my 89 Metro.
Finally figured it out when I found a few drops of gear oil on the mat under the clutch pedal. Turns out the seal on the speedo gear ( not the o ring on the housing) went bad. The speedo cable had augered the gear oil all the way up to the speedometer. I didn't even know there was a seal in there. I got one at the junk yard and replaced it. Anyway by the time I realized it, the gear oil was on the back of the speedometer and the wiring below it. I sprayed ether and carbuerator cleaner under there but its still up in there. So don't fill it up too much.
I'm sure that anyone that has taken a transmission apart realizes that it takes quite a lot of engineering, and I tend to take the advise of the engineers and builders of the transmission as to what and how much to put in it.