Car will not start

[Rick Armstrong]

My daughter's 1998 Saturn S-series will not start. It will turn over fine but will not fire until I shoot some starter fluid down the intake. Then it fires up and runs fine. It consistently will not crank unless I shoot the starter fluid to it. I can hear the fuel pump prime up when I turn the switch on. The Saturn dealer says it may be the ECM but I have my doubts. The ECM will cost my $800 from Saturn.

[cbeck]

have you tried giving it any throttle when starting?

[mysatilac]

through sierrap, I hear that your motor may become dependent on starting fluid after being used, you may want to wait and see what he posts.
Other than that, check everything you can... at least you can get it started....
If it is your ECU you can probably check that by checking your reference voltages to your injection components. (i.e. TPS, IAT, ECT, etc.) pick up a Haynes manual or just go write down the resistances listed at the beggining of the chapter that talks about those sensors.

Dealerships will give you back a broken car just as often as someone else! (trust me, the honda I'm working on has come back from the dealer 3 times with huge charges, still isn't starting)

[peppermrj]

My daughters 96 SC2 had a bad ECTS. Saturn updated the coolant sensors to an all brass one in 2000/2001. Got mine from saturnparts.com for $10.00. Shipping was a bit steep at $8.25 but I ordered a fuel filter and trans filter too so it wasn't too bad.
Easy to replace. about the same as a sparg plug. Just dont over tighten it.

[mysatilac]

peppermrj - were you suggesting that this is why his car won't start without starting fluid?

Normally a car with a bad ECTS will exhibit other syptoms, not just a no start type condition

Was the idle irradic, with the RPMs bouncing all over the place while the car was started?

You can check the condition of the ECTS by taking the wiring harness off of it and using a multimeter set to OHMs and probe it to see if you get the proper resistances... (see below)
or simulate conditions by taking it out and placing it in cold water then slowly heating the water to make sure it gives proper resistance throughout the temperture range

while you have the connector off probe the harness side with a multimeter set to 20DCV and see if you are getting ~5DCV as a referece voltage with the ignition in the on (not started) position

Or try starting with this sensor unplugged - Your car doesn't see the sensor and reverts to a preset condition say about 4K OHMs (~70`F)

Here are the resistances for the ECTS in various tempertures
-20 degrees F________39K-53K OHMs
0 degrees F__________21K-27K OHMs
60 degrees F_________3.9K-4.5K OHMs
120 degrees F________1.0K-1.1K OHMs
160 degrees F________430-480 OHMs
200 degrees F________215-235 OHMs

A resistor with these values is also what someone on e-bay will send you as a "cheap" intake chip higher resistance richer your car will run...
By the way tour IAT and ECT sensor use the same values in thier thermistors (temperture controled resistor)

But thanks for the suggestion...

HEY RICK, check your battery voltage with a multimeter- if its ok then take a spark plug wire off the plug hold it pretty close to the engine block or a convienient ground... Have someone crank the engine over for just 1-2 seconds (so you dont flood the engine) and see if you're getting a proper spark. It should jump nearly a half inch.
Starting fluid can make it start if it is getting a weak spark when normally it wouldn't, Also could be a problem with bad gas (little water in it or something)
I suppose you have tried starting at partial throttle, as cbeck suggested... Not enough gas would also allow starting fluid to get it started, but you would have to open the throttle some for the starting fluid to get in there too, so that suggestion is probably out...

[peppermrj]

ECTS are known problems on saturns prior to 2002. Saturn replaced them with an all brass sensor somewhere between 2000 and 2001.
I have seen them spec out and still be bad without a multitude of other symptoms. I even replaced one that did not have a tell tale crack that was bad. I have the specs and test procedure in the chilton manual also. I totaly agree with staying away from that e-bay crap.
When the PCM recieves a bad signal from the ects telling it the engine is warm even tho it is cold the result is less fuel.
You can unplug it and it will go to a preset mode but I doubt if it would tell you much.
Replacing the ECTS may not solve this particular issue but it is not a matter of if it will fail only when.

If you are using starting fluid Rick you are obviously opening the throttle plate a bit to start the engine. It is possible that the IAC valve is clogged/not functioning as this is what supplies air before the throttle vavle is opened. Try tapping the connection with a screw driver handle while starting the engine. If it makes a diiference replace the valve. If it doesn't try cleaning the pintle and the port it fits into(easier with the throttle body off).
An easier check for spark is to simply pull the wires of of 1 coil and crank it over. You'll see right away. If the engine runs fine the rest of the time especially in high gear I would doubt if this is the problem.

Good luck and let us know how you make out.

[peppermrj]

Rick, Forgot to mention if you do end up needing an"ECM" do a google for used saturn parts. Much cheaper used and a good yard will give at least a 30 day gaurantee. I've used 6thplanet auto parts and am quite pleased with their parts and service.

[sierrap615]

a PCM is commonly a "i don't know whats wrong repair" i have heard as many as 9 out of 10 PCMs returned for warrenty test good. not to say its not possible, but its skeptical to me.

although i am not sure of the exact problem, here are a few things that can give a hard/no start but the car will run(basicly in order of possiblety):

1. bad ECT( the ECM uses the ECT as the primary input to determine the A/F ratio for cranking)
2. sticking IAC
3. sticking EGR
4. carbon build-up in intake(2,3, and 4 all go together, all affect amount of air entering the engine, all are affected by carbon build-up)
5. clogged injectors/low fuel pressure
6. weak battery/ other electrical problem (cables, starter)
7. bad KAM(the PCM's memory if you will, its part of the engine becoming dependent of starter fluid i beleave)
8. spark plugs/wires
9. engine mechanical problem(low compression, internal resistance, ect...)

so that said, here is what i would do: start by replacing the ECT if it has not been done before, buy a can of carb and choke cleaner and clean the throttle body, IAC, and EGR(with removing the EGR, you will also need a new EGR gasket), pull the PCM B fuse for about 15 seconds (this will reset the PCM's KAM). then try to crank at partcial throttle(not WOT, not closed throttle). total investment at this point is about $30. if that doesn't help testing of the fuel, starting, and ignition system will be needed.

[mysatilac]

Originally Posted by peppermrj

An easier check for spark is to simply pull the wires of of 1 coil and crank it over. You'll see right away.

There is only 1 coil... pull one wire off of the distributor cap and crank it over... you'll see what right away? A spark. which jumps to where? I was told take off 2 or all of the wires from the distributor cap and you will see the spark jump between the towers for this test...

But how is this easier? Both of us suggest removing one side of a spark plug wire and watching for a spark while cranking...

Same thing I suggested but mine also tests the Spark Plug Wire for a break...And is exactly what they sell calibrated ignition testers (Fake Spark Plug Type ~$7) to do, but without having to hold it.

You can also take out the Spark plug set the electrode on a ground and see if you get a good spark at the spark plug it self,

I agree that this is not necessarily the problem, but it is a possibility when given a hard start condition.
And if the battery is low or bad, then once started the alternator takes over and it would run fine, which is why I suggested checking the battery voltage as well. Although it is #6 on sierrap's list it is in my opinion the easiest to check

Rick- If I were in your position I would follow Sierrap615's suggestions... He has given you very good suggestions and you can repost if you need help with any step,

As always good luck, and keep us posted or we're just talkin to our selves

[Rick Armstrong]

Originally Posted by cbeck

have you tried giving it any throttle when starting?

=Yes, I have patted the pedal and also all the way down and none at all. It will not crank without a shot of starter fluid.

[Rick Armstrong]

Originally Posted by sierrap615

a PCM is commonly a "i don't know whats wrong repair" i have heard as many as 9 out of 10 PCMs returned for warrenty test good. not to say its not possible, but its skeptical to me.

although i am not sure of the exact problem, here are a few things that can give a hard/no start but the car will run(basicly in order of possiblety):

1. bad ECT( the ECM uses the ECT as the primary input to determine the A/F ratio for cranking)
2. sticking IAC
3. sticking EGR
4. carbon build-up in intake(2,3, and 4 all go together, all affect amount of air entering the engine, all are affected by carbon build-up)
5. clogged injectors/low fuel pressure
6. weak battery/ other electrical problem (cables, starter)
7. bad KAM(the PCM's memory if you will, its part of the engine becoming dependent of starter fluid i beleave)
8. spark plugs/wires
9. engine mechanical problem(low compression, internal resistance, ect...)

so that said, here is what i would do: start by replacing the ECT if it has not been done before, buy a can of carb and choke cleaner and clean the throttle body, IAC, and EGR(with removing the EGR, you will also need a new EGR gasket), pull the PCM B fuse for about 15 seconds (this will reset the PCM's KAM). then try to crank at partcial throttle(not WOT, not closed throttle). total investment at this point is about $30. if that doesn't help testing of the fuel, starting, and ignition system will be needed.

= Thanks for your input. I will let you know the outcome.

[Rick Armstrong]

Originally Posted by mysatilac

There is only 1 coil... pull one wire off of the distributor cap and crank it over... you'll see what right away? A spark. which jumps to where? I was told take off 2 or all of the wires from the distributor cap and you will see the spark jump between the towers for this test...

But how is this easier? Both of us suggest removing one side of a spark plug wire and watching for a spark while cranking...

Same thing I suggested but mine also tests the Spark Plug Wire for a break...And is exactly what they sell calibrated ignition testers (Fake Spark Plug Type ~$7) to do, but without having to hold it.

You can also take out the Spark plug set the electrode on a ground and see if you get a good spark at the spark plug it self,

I agree that this is not necessarily the problem, but it is a possibility when given a hard start condition.
And if the battery is low or bad, then once started the alternator takes over and it would run fine, which is why I suggested checking the battery voltage as well. Although it is #6 on sierrap's list it is in my opinion the easiest to check

Rick- If I were in your position I would follow Sierrap615's suggestions... He has given you very good suggestions and you can repost if you need help with any step,

As always good luck, and keep us posted or we're just talkin to our selves

I will update you once I have time to try our your suggestions.

[peppermrj]

There is only 1 coil... pull one wire off of the distributor cap and crank it over... you'll see what right away? A spark. which jumps to where? I was told take off 2 or all of the wires from the distributor cap and you will see the spark jump between the towers for this test...

Saturns use distibutorless ignition system (DIS)on there Dohc 4 cylinder engines. There is no distributor cap. There are 2 coils. Each coil has 2 plug wires coming from them. Both plugs fire at the same time on each coil. One cylinder on the compression stroke one on the exhaust stroke. Pulling the 2 wires from either one of the two coils is a very quick way to check spark. I doubt that spark is an issue since the engine requires fuel to start and runs fine afterwards.

mysatilac do you have the Sohc engine in your satty and does it have a distributor? Now that I think of it I have never worked on a sohc.

[mysatilac]

Yes Im in a '97 SL1 (SOHC) (see sig.)

But no distributor, Same 2 coil system...I appologize for the correction - Spent way too much time working on a Honda Accord recently (with a spark problem), and not enough time on my own car, in my book others come first

Also I was misled by another post in the forum which mentions, as I said before, taking the wires off the distributor...
I knew that and should have given it more thought and a second look before posting...Though we both meant the same thing. Again I was misinformed and I appologize.

~MySatilac~

[sierrap615]

Originally Posted by Rick Armstrong

=Yes, I have patted the pedal and also all the way down and none at all. It will not crank without a shot of starter fluid.

the reason i said to not crank at WOT is because the saturn PCM and many other GMs are programed to enter a 'clear flood' mode which cuts injectiors and spark if the engine is cranked at full throttle and the RPMs stay below a certian point(i think 400 RPMs)