Attempts stall, Idle Pulses 600-800 rpms, horrible MPG

[12Ounce]

Remember that the ac is engaged during any anti-misting mode. But, "no" ... the clutch would have to be energized to cause a problem ... disconnecting is just an easy to-do check.

[Selectron]

Originally Posted by searcherrr

Guess I have to go reread your explanation, but I'm confused how unplugging the fans and then NOT seeing the stumble/attempt stall ruled out the fans themselves.

I was responding to this:

Originally Posted by searcherrr

I unplugged the fans when the engine was fully hot and let it get up to the mid-range R before plugging them in again. 1st did so with A/C off and then A/C on and then off. There was no "attempt" stall during the fans being unplugged in either of thes tests.

The way I'm reading that, the fans were unplugged while the engine was running. If that's the case and if the spike suppression component(s) in one or both of the fans had failed, thus enabling one or both to generate a spike, then I'd be expecting that spike to jump the air gap to the connector at the instant that it was unplugged. From the connector, it would then have a route via fuse W and into pin 4 of the PCM.

Provided that there's no stumbling at fan switch-off (i.e. A/C switch-off) when the engine is cold, then that in itself is enough to rule out spikes from the fans so I'd completely forget about them and turn your attention elsewhere.

With the appalling fuel consumption and with an engine which is so readily pushed into nearly stalling, I'd have been expecting a code or two - am I right in thinking you're not getting any error codes?

[searcherrr]

No codes. I wish there was. Been hedging on whether or not to get OBDII connectivity to see how often the O2's are reporting (good ones supposed to be 5-7 times a second), but bad O2's are supposed to report a code..... which again isn't there.

New CCRM arrived today. Van still at exhaust shop. Guy fiddle faddled for the entire week cause I guess I didn't act like it was a big priority. They are open tomorrow (Saturday) and I'm gonna get the van one way or another. Provided it doesn't rain I'll be putting in the new CCRM and see what happens.

I'm hoping its the CCRM and that I've latched onto something here with the idea of the cooling fan dropping resistor being bad possibly causing the CCRM to degrade faster than normal.

12Ounce - I guess if the new CCRM doesn't fix it I can try unplugging the coil if I can reach it, but the near-stall problem definitely happens when the A/C isn't even on.

[searcherrr]

Got the van back finally. Exhaust work was not done right. Had to stay there and guide the guy through it. In the end I have a monster unnecessary tailpipe sticking out from the Borla cat-back kit. All of the work I wanted done was done from the flex-pipe back though the 1st muffler/resonator nearly touches the bottom of the van. I'm going to have to experiment with it with someone shifting the gears to make sure it is or isn't.

The worst part of this though is that it appears that the Ypipe is leaking at both manifold junctions which I guess is my fault for thinking they'd seal metal-on-metal due to the way they are designed. Until these seals are fixed I can't really tell if metal is hitting metal with the rest of the exhaust setup. Guy at shop told me to use some exhaust puddy stuff to seal up the Ypipe/manifold ends. They didn't charge me anything cause of how long it was there for something so simple, but I gave the guy a 10 spot anyway. The leaks show themselves pretty violently by shaking the van at a certain low RPM range. Its not nearly as pleasant to drive as it was before. If this sealant crap doesn't fix it I'm done and I will be putting the OEM pipe back on.

CCRM will go in later today when its cooler and when I'm less furious that this debacle is not yet near finished. I think this time just for variety I'm gonna get drunk before I start working on it.

[searcherrr]

ECT hot around 209-211F resistance was 2.315 - Is that right?

During low speed fan operation alternator voltage was 13.99 - 14.03 and it jumped back up above 14.1 after the fans cut off. If there was a voltage spike as I was watching continously on the multimeter it did not show as the fans cut off and the engine tried to stall again.

YEAP thats right..... after replacing the CCRM with the new one the van still tries to stall after the cooling fans cut off. There's $100 wasted now as the old one was working fine. Eventually I'll get the conformal coating and spray it down and keep it for a spare.

I am about the bring the van back to the shop. At this point I have no clue what it could be, but I am thinking along the lines of fuel problems or the fans themselves.

[Selectron]

That's not good news eh, but with the original CCRM connector contacts eroded down to the base metal, its reliability was always going to be questionable and sooner or later - probably sooner - I think you'd have ended up having to replace it.

Assuming that be a resistance value in kilohms then that's just about where it should be at that temperature, so I'd say the ECT sensor is now completely eliminated.

Voltage at around 14.0 rising to 14.1 at fan switch-off seems perfectly reasonable too. You'd see a similar slight rise if you ran the blower motor and then switched it off, or the rear window heater element, headlights, etc. - that's quite normal.

You can eliminate the fans completely by briefly running the A/C with the fans disconnected, as suggested a couple of pages back. Just in case it wasn't clear exactly what was required, I'd suggest this sequence:

1. Unplug fans, directly at fan connectors, while engine is off.
2. Start engine and allow it to settle to a steady idle.
3. Switch A/C on and allow it run briefly - say up to a minute, so it also has time enough to settle down.
4. Switch A/C off.

If it still stumbles then the fans can't possibly be implicated, because they aren't even in-circuit.

Have you tried running some other fairly heavy electrical loads, such as those I just mentioned - headlamps etc., to see if it also stumbles when they are switched off?

[searcherrr]

Van at "trusted" shop with printed instructions.

Fix almost stall issue.
Fix bad mpg.
Fix exhaust.
Fix leaking freon at compressor.

I hope they go the distance this time as last time right after the engine install they just said to drive it a while and see what it does. It probably wasn't good for employee morale either that the same vehicle was there for as long as it was. lol

EDIT: I did do your suggested test in that order and the engine DID NOT stall. I thought I said that in the last page, but maybe I was confusing. The only difference in how I did the test was in #1 I started the engine and unplugged the fans carefully while it was running before the fans kicked on. Since it DIDN'T stall with the fans unplugged thats why I was confused how I'd ruled them out as it would seem unplugging the fans and then NOT having a stall would mean the fans are the culprit.

I haven't tried running with electrical loads.

[tripletdaddy]

My votes' for the fan "system" but with all the "bad voodoo" your van has, I can't commit to just the fan motors. It sounds like the anti-spike gizmo Selectron spoke of is not doing it.

Good luck and my condolences.

[Selectron]

Originally Posted by searcherrr

EDIT: I did do your suggested test in that order and the engine DID NOT stall. I thought I said that in the last page, but maybe I was confusing. The only difference in how I did the test was in #1 I started the engine and unplugged the fans carefully while it was running before the fans kicked on. Since it DIDN'T stall with the fans unplugged thats why I was confused how I'd ruled them out as it would seem unplugging the fans and then NOT having a stall would mean the fans are the culprit.

That wasn't clear to me when I read the other post. As I understand it now, this was the sequence of events:

1. Start engine
2. Unplug fans while engine still cold
3. Switch on A/C and allow it to run briefly
4. Switch A/C off

If that was the sequence and if there was no stumble at A/C switch-off then it's telling you that there's a problem with the fans, and I'd say it's most likely a back-emf problem. Since there are two fans, the next step would be to repeat the test but leave only one of the fans in-circuit, then repeat it again with only the other fan in-circuit. That would tell you which of the two was causing the problem.

If it's for sure that there was no stumble at A/C switch-off when the fans were out-of-circuit then you might want to make the repair shop aware of that, to save them some time.

[searcherrr]

Originally Posted by tripletdaddy

My votes' for the fan "system" but with all the "bad voodoo" your van has, I can't commit to just the fan motors. It sounds like the anti-spike gizmo Selectron spoke of is not doing it.

Good luck and my condolences.

CONDOLENCES ! LOLLLLLLLL

[searcherrr]

Originally Posted by Selectron

That wasn't clear to me when I read the other post. As I understand it now, this was the sequence of events:

1. Start engine
2. Unplug fans while engine still cold
3. Switch on A/C and allow it to run briefly
4. Switch A/C off

If that was the sequence and if there was no stumble at A/C switch-off then it's telling you that there's a problem with the fans, and I'd say it's most likely a back-emf problem. Since there are two fans, the next step would be to repeat the test but leave only one of the fans in-circuit, then repeat it again with only the other fan in-circuit. That would tell you which of the two was causing the problem.

If it's for sure that there was no stumble at A/C switch-off when the fans were out-of-circuit then you might want to make the repair shop aware of that, to save them some time.

FOR sure there's no stumble when the fans are unplugged and I let the temp get up to the "R" on the temp gauge before cutting the van off and having OFFed/ONed the A/C a few times.

I just called the shop to tell them about the fans being unplugged deal. Kinda feel stupid now as I could've easily resolved this myself by replacing the fans which I do believe is fairly simple. I was one step away from diagnosing which fan too, but I didn't do the vice versa unplug test cause I forgot when I went out there.

[searcherrr]

Crickets.

As suspected I haven't heard a peep from my shop. Gonna call'em tomorrow morning. At least I saw they moved the van from its original parking spot.

[searcherrr]

They didn't touch it for 4 days cause of backed up work allegedly though I wouldn't doubt it either because in this padoo ass town there's very little in the way of a shop that knows what tha hell they're doing which is why they are my "trusted" shop.

I talked to the head owner there though and he said from what I described that it is likely the fans pulling to many amps, but in any case the focus is the fans and a new set of fans costs a minimum roundabout $160 cause the assembly is all you can get now.

Compressor - Told him I saw drops of freon at the mid-base of the compressor and he said thats probably the front seal. Big poop sports fans. More big $.

[wiswind]

I read the FORD TSB about the cooling fans to be replaced as an assembly........It is because the assembly needs to be ballanced.....and if it is not....then it will wobble and ruin the bearings in the motor.
So the whole assembly is the way to go......sadly...more money...but it will be done right (will last).
This will be a first for the fan motors to cause this.....but the symptoms are pointing that way.....since the CCRM did not solve the problem.
Although....I STILL feel better with you having a new CCRM in there.

It is a sad break about the A/C compressor leaking.
Maybe you can get lucky and have it be a seal that they can replace.
If one ends up replacing the compressor......they come with or without the clutch assembly.
I would go for the one with a new clutch assembly.

[Ruby&Ray]

hello