Attempts stall, Idle Pulses 600-800 rpms, horrible MPG

[searcherrr]

Injector part number comparison: 95 3.8L vs all other Windstar Years 3.8L

1995 3.8L
DELPHI Part # FP10049
MOTORCRAFT Part # CM4760

1996 3.8L
DELPHI Part # FP10049
MOTORCRAFT Part # CM4766

Fuel injector flow rates
1995 Windstar 3.8L 15 lbs./hr - 155hp - 170cc per min
1996-98 Windstar 3.8L 21 lbs./hr - 200hp - 218-220cc per min

Old OEM Ford number: F1ZE-9F593-B4C - Short number on injector: F1ZE-B4C
New OEM Ford Number: F1ZZ 9F593 B - Probably new short number on injector: F1ZZ-B

Its interesting to me that Delphi got it wrong, but I'll trust Ford/Motorcraft before I will them. All other web sites (except the injector remanufacturers sites) confirm that these injectors from 95 and all other year Windstars of 3.8L variety are different. Try convincing an injector remanufacturer of that when their web site says otherwise. Thats when you just use the part number on the injector like I ultimately had to.

I confirmed too that later year 3.8L Windstars injector part numbers vary from the 95.

95 owners beware. If you buy new injectors from a remanufacturer you will likely not get the right ones. Ensure part number match before ordering. I was able to peak at my part number at the right front side of the intake plenum near the FPR to verify the right #.

So now the joy continues. I have friends coming in tomorrow for Mardi Gras and we were supposed to use the "PARTY BUS" for all of that and now I can't.

I know Wiswind advises against remanned injectors, but the ones I found come with a 2 year warranty like new ones do and if pressure holds as it should and MPG improves as it should I'll be a happy camper... and of course after this long saga full of Southern VooDoo I need to try to save some cash. Just re-ordered new remanned ones from a different site than before: injectorwhse.com - The ones I got before were from precisionautoinjectors.com and now the guy won't contact me to return them, but thats odd cause he was very accommodating by refunding my shipping without me even asking on the 1st order. He did that cause I ordered Express Mail and he didn't ship it till later.

Where am I getting the patience? I mean its just absolutely amazing.... all i wanted was 1 thing.. a set of injectors and its listed EVERYWHERE incorrectly by every injector remanufacturer. Sure i could go to Ford and/or Autozone or the likes and spend $60 or more for new injectors, but honestly I feel remanned ones are the same and I've saved about $100 .... assuming the 1st guy refunds my money.

Oh Joy.... Oh Joy.... Oh wonderful Joy joy joy.

[wiswind]

Remanufactured injectors should be fine.....I try to have everything matched up.....maybe different manufactures are consistant with the OEM.....but I like to have them all the same....just to be sure.
I do advise folks to make sure that the injector needs replacing....not just dirty like I have had happen a number of times on my windstar.

You can also look the injector up on www.motorcraft.com
I came up with CM4705 on there and on RockAuto for the 1995 3.8L

[searcherrr]

Yer a bad ass.

[tripletdaddy]

Wiswind, how do you know you have a dirty injector vs. one that isn't working right? I believe I have a bad one that is not injecting a mist but dribbling too much gas into the cylinder causing a flooding condition, a dead cylinder and gas out the exhaust manifold and the tailpipe. It's kind of too late to use fuel injector cleaner at this point for that one but I'll put some in to keep the others clean. Oh, BTW, the pintle cap on the injector was not dirty or anything that would block the spray, but the new one by GP Sorenson doesn't look anything like the original. A mechanic friend of mine says the new style is a much better design that doesn't have the problems of the old one like in the pintle area.

[searcherrr]

Status: Intake manifold all apart. Old Injectors loosened and ready for pulling later today after I sleep a bit. Its a serious bitch to get all that stuff out, and I left as much stuff connected as I could pulling the plenum attached to the throttle body attached to the air pipe all in one assembly. Was tricky getting it out like that, but my sister and I managed to do it. Promptly afterwards I taped up the intake so nothing would drop in there and since its been sitting I taped up everything else that shouldn't be exposed to elements either, including the connectors, vac lines, etc..

I will be changing the oil too, cause I'm told there is probably gas in it.

I will be replacing both upstream O2 sensors and while I've confirmed a long long time ago that these are not a or the problem my shop told me they were slow.

I will replace the voltage regulator that I believe to be old.

Finally, I'll replace the fuel filter if I can manage to get the damn thing off with a new tool I found at O'reilly's. I'm not sure about this yet as I would like to see the fuel pressure at first key flick after installing the new injectors. If it doesn't come up above 30psi then I'll replace the filter for sure cause it had a few runs in the old filthy gas tank before it was cleaned.

Finally received my USB to OBD/CAN connector today.... direct from Hong Kong. Took 3 weeks. I just hope I can actually use it with the free internet software.

I would've had all this done by now, but MARDI GRAS has been priority. hehe - Had a lot of fun. Too bad its over.

I think this is a very interesting indirect find that when there are issues with the rad fans cutting on or off and then engine sputtering, that our Windstars are likely to have an injector (and/or fuel delivery) problem.

The CCRM adjusts fuel flow rate (I'm sure of it) when the fans kick on or off. It must be in this minute fuel delivery change at idle that the bad injector is no longer able to handle subtle fuel delivery changes for either being stuck open or closed or just stuck not moving in either direction leaving "whatever" amount of orifice open at the spray end to cause problems.

I never in my life would've thought a fuel injector would be the fix for this problem, especially with NO CODE from the computer. I am 95% certain this is the fix for my problem in this big ole thread and I'll know for sure tomorrow when the new injectors get put in.

[searcherrr]

Working here now:
http://www.automotiveforums.com/vbul...59#post5923959

[searcherrr]

Got the laptop outside.

Status:
Injector 4: Cap broken off into intake; hopefully fell off in previous original or 2nd defective reman engine; This means the spray pattern was not right for this injector.

Injector 5: Faulty; stuck; leaking; gas was coming out of the tip of it. How could my van have passed the computer tests if this was the case, let alone for Injector 4 too. End cap severed at base yet still hanging on.

Injector 6: End cap severed at base yet still hanging on.

Injector 3: End cap severed at base yet still hanging on.

BIG BIG FIND: AUTOMOTIVE 101 - Don't cross the plug wires to the coils. Spark plug wires #5 and #6 were crossed. Therefore big MPG and other idle etc.. problems. This has been this way since the original engine.

Ghostbusters: "Crossing the streams is bad."

more later...

[searcherrr]

Well, all the lil bitty things that I've found add up to a nice cup of bullshit.

The injectors with the "End cap severed at base yet still hanging on." - I would imagine would have a modified improper spray pattern, especially the one missing the cap altogether. The leaky injector #5 was my obvious fuel pressure and gas leak problem.

The 2 PVC's instead of a breather and a pvc.

The backwards synchro.

The criss-crossed spark plug wires (5 & 6).

Plugged fuel filters.

Dirty gas tank. Filthy naughty dirty.

Bad battery (after buying new) due to bad voltage regulator.

UGGG....... WHAT ELSE AM I GOING TO FIND THAT THESE PEOPLE I'VE PAID THOUSANDS TO, HAVE MESSED UP.

Status: All injectors off. Waiting for mosquitoes to subside before I go back outside. Entire engine compartment taped off where anything thats usually not supposed to be exposed is. Fun fun.

[wiswind]

"Waiting for mosquitoes to subside".....I have to do a double take when I read that......not an issue on a February evening in Wisconsin.

I would think that your motor would run rough with wires 5&6 crossed.......
Now 5&1 or 6&2 crossed, would not matter as they are on the same coils......and fire together anyhow.

[searcherrr]

Originally Posted by wiswind

"Waiting for mosquitoes to subside".....I have to do a double take when I read that......not an issue on a February evening in Wisconsin.

I would think that your motor would run rough with wires 5&6 crossed.......
Now 5&1 or 6&2 crossed, would not matter as they are on the same coils......and fire together anyhow.

Try the absolute opposite side of the USA... hot humid sub-tropical masquerading as tropical, scum bucket South Eastern Louisiana.

Yes, mosquitoes here are a big problem. If you hear of West Nile Virus, more than likely its being circulated here. I could only pray for decent cool weather here.

5 & 6 - Yeah, this pretty much means the firing sequence has always been OFF beat. If I don't see MPG improvements and the IDLE thing gone after all this stuff I'm gonna sh!t a cow.

At first when I discovered this I thought my eyes were playing tricks on me. Then I thought - well I replaced the coils.... Did I hook it back right? - and after thinking about it I know I put the wires back exactly how they were before. I was very careful to make sure I did put them back on the same coil plugs, but what I didn't know was I was putting them back in the wrong sequence. I can see why the tech made this mistake cause the wires swap places in how they are run to the coils and you couldn't see well without pulling the wires up over the oil cap. I even had my sister trace it to make sure I wasn't going crazy. lol

[searcherrr]

Status:
Very pissed about what else I found today. I know this is the shops fault too. Who in their right mind would route the main PCM wiring harness between the hot egr intake/exhaust pipe (driver side) and the rear (right engine) valve cover? On my 95, there is about 1" .. maybe 1.5" of space between those. Both get very very hot as we all know and the egr pipe hotter than hell. I had been noticing before that the main harness plastic protector holder, that routes right behind the rear fuel rail, had the little flaps in the upward unsecured position.

I was never able to see what the deal was till the intake plenum was off, but the flaps of the harness protector atop the engine could never go down because it just wasn't put back together properly. ALL of the bottom side of the main PCM wiring harness for about 4 inches is cinged/melted very badly. Most of the wires in the PCM wiring harness have merged together as a chunk of melted plastic and wire sheaths. Fearing what would happen if I tried to pick it all apart, I stopped after picking 1 wire ever so slowly with a screwdriver end and the wire sheath just peeled off.

Since I have no odd electrical behavior (I think) and think that the injectors and swapped ignition wires are going to resolve my issue, I'm betting that the metal core of the wires are not touching each other, but merely their outer coatings are merged. I put some liquid rubber all over the cinged area and puddied it back good. Then I wrapped some serious layers of electrical tape several times around it all.

After having to unplug everything (some stuff really hard to reach) I spent probably about 4-5 hours on just repairing the harness, getting it out of the wrong position, repositioning it, and stretching ma big azz to plug everything back in. Now its routed correctly, past the egr pipe (to the right of it) and away from the valve cover.

All I wanted to do today (yesterday now) was test the injectors before reassembling and then reassemble... only to find 1 more thing that some knuckleheads did wrong.

The sad sad sad thing about this is that if my injectors and spark wires in the right positions don't resolve my problem I can only assume that 1 or more of the wires where the main harness melted have to be touching and arcing out.

[searcherrr]

Status:
Bad news. Did the pressure hold test before reassembling. Purged air out the fuel pressure tester relief valve. After that if I leave the key turned to ON to where the dash is lit we hear a constant stream of fuel being spraying into the head. Ironically its the rear bank (we think) and the leaky one was in front on cylinder 5. Time to wip out the multimeter and check the voltage and continuity of the wiring. Cowl will finally have to come off cause I gotta test at the PCM.

Not sure what to do. Repair the main PCM harness or get a new/used one. I imagine new they are quite expensive.

Am I correct to think that pressure should be "holding" and not "squirting constantly" before starting the engine right (KOEO)?

Would it matter (doing the test above in this post) if the IAC, TPS, EGR, are all unplugged and just the battery and injectors plugged?

[12Ounce]

I comment cautiously because I don't know much about fuel systems ... especially on your year model: And I have never "heard" fuel flow through the fuel rail ... (may have something to do with having very old ears.) There should be no fuel flow out of the fuel rail into the head unless an injector is opening (... or "firing"). Normally an injector only fires for a brief fraction of a second for each two crankshaft revolutions. Do you have any observations, other than hearing, that fuel is flowing into the head? ... flooded cyls perhaps ... wet plugs?

I think you are right to be concerned about the possible damaged harness. I have a test that has never failed me: The harness is unplugged on both ends and brought to a bench. With a ohmmeter, each pin-to-pin continuity is verified ... and keeping in mind that one pin, at on end, should only connect to one pin at the other ... not two.. not three... This simple procedure has helped often.

[wiswind]

I just read the alldatadiy description......and they don't mention any fuel squirting with the key sitting in the ON position with the motor not running.

I can understand a small squirt at the beginning.....don't know if that happens or not....but certainly not a constant flow.........and I think that they may have done this with throttle body fuel injection....1 fuel injector for the whole motor (my '81 Plymouth Horizon had that).....with throttle body fuel injection, there was a distance to travel between the throttle body.....and the individual cylinders.....so maybe a need to "prime" for easier starting.
Sounds primative....but that little thing pulled a easy 47mpg......
(Read that Smart Car......at 1/2 the size.)

If there would be a constant flow......you would notice a problem when you go to start the engine......
With the concerns about getting raw fuel into the catalytic converter......I would be surprised if there should be ANY flow without the engine turning over.
Added to this is the fact that the fuel injector is spraying right at the intake valve....so there is little delay in drawing fuel into the cylinder when cranking the engine.

There is a check valve in the fuel pump assembly that maintains fuel pressure when the fuel pump is not running.

When you turn the key to the RUN position.....but don't start the engine....you will hear the fuel pump come on and run for a second or so....then turn OFF.

The fuel pressure regulator will maintain the fuel pressure so that the pressure across the fuel injector is constant........from input to output......the output being in the vaccum of the intake manifold.
As the manifold pressure increases (low load), the fuel pressure regulator will reduce the fuel pressure in the fuel rail.....to compensate for the increased vaccum in the intake manifold.....maintaining a near constant pressure drop through the fuel injector.

In the 2 hose system (our older windstars have this).....the fuel pressure regulator opens at the desired pressure, and lets the excess fuel flow back to the tank.
So the pressure regulator provides just enough back pressure to maintain the desired fuel pressure.

A new fuel injector wiring harness for 1995 3.8L lists for $52.43 and sells for $36.18 at Y2KFORD in Seattle.
The 3.0L version is not so cheap.....list of $1048.57....their price $723.51
For the price...for your 3.8L version...plus shipping....from how you describe your harness.....I would just replace it.

When measuring voltages......when you turn the key ON.....you will have + battery voltage supplied to the injectors, the RED wire......through fuse 'S' 30amp in the power distribution box......then through the contacts of the PCM power relay.
The PCM relay coil is energized through fuse '20' 25amp in the I/P fuse panel.....and grounded through the CCRM.

The PCM provides a momentary ground to the injector to energize it.
So....sitting in the driveway with the key ON, motor NOT running, you should measure the +12V at both electrical connections on the injector relative to GROUND....as the PCM should be not providing a ground at that time.

Y2KFORD also lists the injectors for the '95 at suggested list of $86.23 with their price at $49.61

[searcherrr]

Thanks ya'll!

47 mpg would be great Wiswind. What an early performer that car was huh? lol

The harness that melted together isn't just the injector wiring harness (EDIT: misspoke here; its not the injector wiring harness at all; its the main PCM wiring harness on the MALE end connector side over from the main fuel injector harness connection where the PCM harness and injectors harness meet). It is the main PCM harness that goes off the right side of the valve cover with a huge square-ish connector with a bolt in the middle of it that looks like it routes to the driver instrument panel. If i follow it to the left it goes atop-center of the engine over left of the pulleys to the PCM. I'm talking about like I dunno.... maybe 20-30 wires to various things (including the injectors) that melted/merged together. Basically I figure this is just the main wiring harness. I would probably need to repair it or order a new one cause I have no idea what wires to what devices may be arcing.

The spray of fuel we hear with KOEO is definitely constant. Thank ya'll for confirming for me thats not right.

Startup problems - perhaps running as long as I have with 1 leaky and 3 other broken spray end cap injectors actually for some odd reason kept me from having startup problems. I bet if I put it all back together as is now that I'd have startup problems for sure. Maybe its since I moved the wiring harness and disturbed something that its acting up like this and wasn't before, but I find that hard to believe.

Spark plug 5 was pretty black due to the leaky injector there (cleaned it since its still so new). I haven't pulled the other ones to check because the other injectors didn't seem to be leaking.

Pressure can't be maintained if there is an opening in the fuel system regardless of the fuel pump check valve. There is no question that at least one of the injectors in the rear bank is squirting constantly with KOEO.

From what I read elsewhere and what you guys say I shouldn't see ANY voltage at all at the fuel injector harness connector with KOEO and pressure should just hold and if it doesn't then 1 or more of the injectors must be getting voltage when it shouldn't be or that new injector may be bad..... which I seriously doubt, but hey I can't rule it out till I confirm whats going on.

This kinda makes sense to me because on my original engine I had a misfire on cylinder 2 i think (it was rear bank for sure) and the rear cat glowed red after I got home from being stuck in MS when the original engine overheated. Now a burned through spark wire was found in that case, but this problem could've been contributing to it too. Not to mention another thing... maybe I wasn't (prior to this injector project) having starting problems cause everything else is so new in the engine bay. lol

I spent some time tonight looking up injector data and basically it doesn't appear that you test them for voltage, but that their resistance lowers the battery 12v voltage when its applied. I did some fiddling around with online calculators and it looks like the amount of voltage passing through my injectors at hot idle would be around .0057v to .0060v.

Therefore.... someone remind me again of what the injector resistance should be. lol - I've been researching for hours. I know I had to have obtained that information somewhere on here already.