Attempts stall, Idle Pulses 600-800 rpms, horrible MPG

[wiswind]

I would not attempt to rebuild them myself.
The flow rate must be really close from injector to injector, or you will have more problems.
There are a couple of places that I have heard of that you can send your injectors in to have them cleaned and flow tested and matched so that all 6 are within very tight specifications of each other.
I would lean toward this instead of new fuel injectors.

On Rockauto, the Motorcraft injectors for the '95 3.8L Windstar are $57.79 each.
I would go this route with new ones rather then the cheap ones.....which is why I lean toward the method above.


There is a motor ballance test that one can do.
You connect a tachometer to get an accurate reading of the RPM (you need something better than the tach gauge in the dash....the Scangauge should be good enough)
You set your accellerator so that the motor is at a given RPM (near idle....not fast).
You unplug the electrical connection to the Idle Air Control (IAC) so that the PCM cannot adjust the RPM.
You record the RPM.
Then you unplug each fuel injector, record the RPM and plug it back in.
The RPM change for each fuel injector being unplugged should be really close for each of the 6 cylinders.

I have never done this test....but have been told about it.

[searcherrr]

Wiswind - Thats a very interesting test. I was working on coming up with a few of my own last night too. I'm gonna cap various vac lines as an alternate method of vac testing and see what happens.

FUEL filter - I'm going to replace the fuel filter again. Knowing my new fuel filter ran on the old gas tank for at least 2 fill ups and knowing how filthy it was I ran another fuel PSI test with Key flick. First turn comes up zero.... I dunno if this has anything to do with air in the tester at first or whatever.. but I always bleed the tester before turning the key so I dunno... 2nd key flick 10 psi.... 3rd key flick 20 psi.... 4th key flick 30 psi....

Operating PSI since I fixed the 2 PCV valves issue is now 29 psi, though the near stall is still there. But MPG should improve dramatically now I would think because the engine was starved of crankcase ventilation... it was in effect "negative crankcase ventilation".

Working here at the moment:
PCV valve and breather - http://www.automotiveforums.com/vbul....php?p=5910510

[searcherrr]

Never ceases to amaze me.

My Battery was testing GOOD, but was BAD. "Yeah, what huh... how's that again?" I just got this big ass battery a little over a year ago when I was up North with my lazy ex.

Wal-Mart Auto is where I got it and so I brought it back there and they had a 40 minute testing machine that would tell if it would hold a charge and the end of the test said it wouldn't. Though on their handheld tester it tested GOOD. At AUTOZONE the roll out tester tested GOOD, but low charge.... thats where it all started... I couldn't start the van at Autozone as I was picking up a new fuel filter (AGAIN).

FUEL INJECTORS - I know everyone besides the 95 crowd has the IMRC... but assuming that isn't in the way and you are just looking at the intake manifold, can you get down below it well enough to test injector resistance and voltages? I am thinking that somewhere somehow with a bad cell battery, and likely the old alternator that caused it, that some coils or circuits must be messed up at the injectors or elsewhere.

MPG - I've yet to verify MPG cause today was a long ass day, but now that I have a solid battery, alternator, and crankcase air flow I want to see what kind of mileage I get on the road. Maybe I'll find out tomorrow on my BIRTHDAY !!!! Would've been great if my van would've let me fix it for my birthday.... but no dice.

[searcherrr]

In a dark and lonely place on the internet I read someone posted that the PCM in a 95 Windstar was holding certain injectors wide open at irregular times. I think it was injector #2 and #5 if i am not mistaken. I'm wondering now about the PCM having been programmed right and if this non-Ford engine computer has anything to do with whats going on.

Engine PCM (ECM) Calibration
http://www.automotiveforums.com/vbul...51#post5911151

[searcherrr]

Bad battery recently.. blown PCM in past... blown MAS (element wire snapped in half though to be electrical...... New alternator now which revealed bad battery... now what?

I cannot believe this, but the freaks over at my TRUSTED SHOP (which is now becoming the GOON-SHOP to me) replaced the alternator, but did not replace the regulator on the back. ..... and guess what I've determined is bad... THE REGULATOR. I have learned not to count my chickens before they're hatched, but this could very well be the mainmost part of the array of problems I've ironed out.

This would explain the blown PCM and blown MAF element wire (literally severed itself) and perhaps even the blown IAC from a year or so ago. I am just in awe that they left the old regulator on there. I mean am I alone here in thinking that after replacing a 160k old alternator that you'd want to replace the whole thing as STANDARD procedure????

This just keeps getting better and better. I literally will have built a new Windstar by the time i'm done.

Still focusing on the injectors too. Also thinking of getting a new fuel cap and I got a new tool yesterday to install the fuel filter.... hoping it makes it a lot easier this time.

Fuel pressure leak down rate: acceptable or not
http://www.automotiveforums.com/vbul...d.php?t=941340

Interesting results came about yesterday as I was trying to get even more creative with testing. Before I found out about the voltage regulator being bad, I determined that I can get the van to repeat the "near stall" behavior by pumping the brake pedal 4+ times and then the near stall happens a few short seconds afterwards. If I push the window button up when the window is already up the cabin lights dim, if I have headlights and a/c on alt voltage drops to 13.8, when fans are going on/off with other stuff on I saw it go as low as 12.5 and back up to 14, its not going over 14 right now. When I saw the original voltage regulator on the new alt I was some pissed off.

I don't know what this means.... could just be that I gave the voltage regulator 1 less thing to regulate, but I unplugged the EVAP purge regulator valve harness connector and I swear I was in disbelief as the fans turned OFF and the engine didn't try to stall!!!! Though I think repeats of this test it may have tried to stall again. Until the new volt regulator is put in though, I cannot be sure of anything electrical that I test so if its still doing its crap I'll have to redo that test again after I install the new volt reg.

Having experienced this idle "change" issue on my other car....also when pumping the brake..... it made me think it had to be a leaky booster when in fact it was nothing to do with anything.... What I do know is it was caused by a vac leak at the Throttle Body pivoting plate.

Removed all vac lines at main junction as a "whole" and removed them all individually and tested each time only to be met with more frustration. No leaks, which is good... but at this point I'd settle for something easy.

More to come... I'm dead tired so I'm gonna go rest now.

[tripletdaddy]

Your "trusted" shop sounds not so trusted. Never heard of ANYONE installing a brand new alt that didn't come with a brand new volt reg and brushes already bolted on to it. I bet you'd be hard pressed to find ANYONE who makes or sells one like that. Are you sure they ain't part swapping on you? No manufacturer even on drugs would not have a new reg/brush unit on their alt. It would give them bad product returns/warranty claims till the cows come home. It just doesn't make any sense for ANYBODY to do that, even your "trusted" mechanics. Maybe that are deliberately sabotaging their own work to get rid of you, hoping you go elsewhere. Reusing the old volt reg is just idiotic!?! It just doesn't make sense. Seems they are just handing you reasons to come back to complain for their shoddy work and parts. The battery could have shortened the life of your alt too. You could ask the shop for proof of the alt being brand new, but what you obviously want and should have gotten in the first place is a brand new and complete alt. It goes without saying if the alt has an internal reg., the reg is part of the alt and would therefor come with it if you just asked for an alternator.

The fuel fill cap you have should be good since you haven't mentioned having any codes, specifically for the EVAP system. There's a code for there being too high or too low pressure in the system as it is supposed to be sealed at a steady pressure. If after running the van and you open the fill with the engine off, like when you buy gas, there should be a slight audible whoosh like air moving sound, though it will be louder when very hot outside. However, if very loud when not cold would suggest something is clogged, like the in-tank valve. But heck, why not buy a new fill cap, what's one more thing to shake that bad voodoo you have.

Lacking tightness of the system could lead to excessive fuel usage that would be noticeable by a strong gas odor. If the smell is stronger under the hood, you should test the VMV. Check for battery voltage at the vapor purge reg valve electrical connector (disconnected) with the key on, engine off. No bat+ means the pcm needs to be checked.

An OBDII SCAN tool should be able to check for excess pressure and other possible component problems in the EVAP to see if the EVAP is keeping the pressure down where it belongs.

Things that may cause too high pressure are:

The charcoal canister needs to be airtight. Remove the close-off line near the canister and install a hand pressure pump to 2.5 psi confirming only the pressure vents through the close-off line.
Then install the pump directly at the canister with 2.5psi. It should hold the pressure.

The in-tank evaporative emission valve may be plugged. It needs to be able to get to to outside air (pressure).

The hoses and lines in the EVAP system to the canister, tank, vapor management valve, etc., and the canister inlet port can't be plugged, kinked, pinched, etc.

I know I said the EVAP system would have codes if something is wrong with it, but thinking about the stall not occurring with the EVAP purge regulator valve harness disconnected suggests to me either the electrical signal isn't getting to the reg valve, or the valve is no good. Possibly the pressure sensor in the gas tank is not operating right, thereby confusing the PCM not to send the correct signal to the purge valve. Some more food for thought from my Haynes. "Poor idle, stalling and poor driveability can be caused by an inoperative vapor managment valve, a damaged vapor canister, split or cracked hoses or hoses connected to the wrong ports.

[wiswind]

Well....your engine is STILL a FORD engine......just remanufactured by someone else.
This should not have any effect on the PCM.

As far as the voltage regulator.....I don't know how a alternator could be replaced without a new one.....as it is part of the alternator assembly.
HOWEVER, I can certainly see how a defective battery can cause it to fail.
I installed a Motorcraft alternator on my Windstar......a month later it failed.....actually melted the alluminum case.
So.....it is possible to get a dud replacement part.

A defective battery can also impact fuel economy as it is a additional load on the motor.

[searcherrr]

I don't know about ya'lls alternators, but on mine the regulator is external on the back side of the alternator. Still, it does not make sense to me that they wouldn't have included it.

I'll be working on the van either later today or tomorrow.

[searcherrr]

Very confused now because this is the one they put in:
http://www.napaonline.com/MasterPage...mfd+-+Standard

Comes 100% new with new regulator and rectifier... but what is puzzling is that the regulator is clearly on the OUTSIDE. I'll have to check my CD-ROM and verify.

CONFIRMED: Regulator is on outside. That Napa link has to be a misprint.

[tripletdaddy]

Yes, just about all of the alts since I don't know when have an integral regulator bolted to it, typically on the back side for ease of access, as is on our Windstar. It's that way on my Taurii as they use the same alt unit with possible slight electrical/orientation modifications. Umm, the distinction I'm familiar with, and I'm pretty confident I'm right on this though I could be wrong, is an "externally" mounted voltage regulator is mounted external TO the alternator, ie. it is mounted somewhere else in the engine compartment, but not externally mounted ON the alternator. The old style alts were built without the voltage regulator, thus the distinction of internal vs. external. That's just how they were made years ago, and probably for a couple of reasons. First, they were with old tech electronics that were more failure prone so needed to be more easily and frequently replaced. Remote placement kept it cooler to extend its life. And, probably it was easier to make the alt without the volt reg as part of it. Now, they are able to work around those issues with new tech, etc., and one of the manufacturers came up with the nice setup as you see on the Ford alt. The style we have has the volt reg, rectifier and brushes all in one mounted IN (not on) the back of the alt. That's a whole new design that makes the highest failure part of the charging system very simple to repair. Rather than trying to figure out which subcomponent has failed, you replace the whole thing. The typical Delco Remy design also has an internal reg, but they weren't smart enough to make it so easily accessible by burying it inside the two halves of the alt case. I think only the brushes are externally accessible. If you pull it out of the back of the Ford alt, you'll also see why it qualifies as an internal regulator. It really is in the alt. Not to beat this to death too much, I think you'd not call it an external reg if there was a cover over it. Some have that, but Ford decided to skip it and make it cover, reg and all in one. You can also note that it is installed flush to the back of the alt. Needless to say, they have switched alt designs on the 1999 and up to our great expense of an entire alternator when something goes bad with it as the reg and even the friggn' brushes are SEALED inside it!?! RRRrrrrrrr!!!

[searcherrr]

Does what I wrote above constitute to ya'll as a bad voltage regulator?

To ME... there are dirty scrape marks on the regulator which is how I have evaluated it to be the OLD one cause I just don't think the new one would be dirty at all.... but what if I'm wrong... what if the tech just had dirty hands that dirtied up the edges of the new regulator? lol - Either way does this behavior constitute a regulator not working right?

"If I push the window button up when the window is already up, the cabin lights dim, if I have headlights and a/c on alt voltage drops to 13.8, when fans are going on/off with other stuff on I saw it go as low as 12.5 and back up to 14, its not going over 14 right now. When I saw the original voltage regulator on the new alt I was some pissed off."

And basically when accessories are on (headlights, a/c, etc..) and the fans cycle on/off and the a/c clutch cycles on/off the voltage slips to the lower 13's and as low as 12.5 at various times. Assuming all connections are good (which ya'll know I've thoroughly done over at this point) isn't this behavior of a bad voltage regulator?

[philkb]

A bad voltage regulator will usually cause the low-load voltage to be either too high or too low. If the low load voltage goes much higher than about 13.8-14 volts when revving the engine while under hood temperature is warm, the voltage regulator is most likely bad. This is assuming a good, fully charged battery. The normal voltage at low load is about 13.2 for a very hot underhood temperature, to a little over 14 volts for a cold temp. At bitterly cold temps the voltage may be near 15 volts but should drop as the temps go up. When putting a load on, such as the windows, which draw high amperage, it is normal to see lights dimming since there will be voltage drops along the wiring, even though the battery voltage will show less of a drop. Your alternator should maintain normal voltage range when running the heater and radiator fans, etc. If the voltage drops too low when "normal" high loads such as I just described are applied, and the engine is revved a little, then the alternator itself is likely bad, not the voltage regulator. Needless to say, proper checking can be tricky. Most alternators fail because of long term high heat in the rectifiers and subsequent failure of the rectifiers. Usually they go open, cutting out at least one of the three phases supplied from the alternator stator windings. Once that happens, the additional load on the remaining rectifiers will cause them to fail soon after. Often that will cause noises to come from the alternator. There are testers that can tell this by the amount of "ripple" in the current from the alternator. When even one of the six rectifiers goes bad, there will be a great increase in ripple and that is how the testers "know" that an alternator is bad, regardless of it's output current and voltage. I suppose that if someone connected a small speaker in series with a capacitor and connected this combo across the battery, the ripple squeal would be much more noticeable on a bad alternator than from a good one. I've never actually tried that but it seems as though it would work. Without the capacitor in the circuit the speaker would be destroyed in seconds after touching the battery terminals.

Phil

[searcherrr]

Well, ya'll are gonna love what happened today (yesterday now as I wrote this post yesterday). Turns out a long time ago in this thread when I said I didn't think my problem was electrical and instead fuel that I was probably right....... OR that it may be both. I am not sure by Phil's response if my regulator is bad, but I do know from looking at it its the original one on a new alternator and I'd feel better with a new one on the new alt.

Went to start the engine today to take my sister to get her first Learner's License and was going to pickup my voltage regulator and I've been letting the van sit for 4 or 5 days since I put in a can of B-12 chemtool to about 12.5 gallons.

I start it up and the engine is struggling to stay running and shaking the van all over. Stepped out of the vehicle, raised hood..... SMELL GAS... GAS GAS GAS....Gas spitting out of the engine where the exhaust manifold meets the exhaust downpipe... definitely 1 or more leaky injectors on the front bank as I have been suspecting. Now that I've taken a leak down time for the OLD injectors I can leak down time it when I put in the new ones and have a baseline to go from in the future.

The amount of gas coming out was quite a bit compared to supposed to having NONE... it was enough to make a 3-4 inch diameter puddle. This also makes me wonder.... or believe now that I also had an exhaust leak where the manifold meets the downpipe... otherwise I wouldn't have seen gas coming out right? And how could I see gas coming out if it wasn't pretty full in there from sitting 4 days? What ya'll think?

I imagine this problem finally revealed itself after everything else in the fuel system being new and putting "NEW PRODUCT - LOW USE" higher fuel pressure on the injectors......combined with putting some fuel additive in there and wa-la.... the leaky injector(s) got worse and revealed itself.

FUEL coming out of the exhaust manifold where it meets the exhaust pipe is a bit concerning. Makes me think my "used to be trusted shop" did not tighten the pipe enough.

"Trusted shop" downgraded to "GOONIE BIRD MONKEY Hybrids with wrenches".

I am ordering injectors tonight and of course for all this trouble I will replace them all.

I also plan to have quite a talk with my shop (who still has my 3000GT in their repair bay too) and ask them if they are trying to get rid of me. I really don't know what else to think unless they've really been this fucking stupid. Though I went to another shop too and they didn't catch it either.... nowadays it just seems like if the computer isn't telling them some code they turn off their brains. I really cannot stand it..... it infuriates me to no end..... and now I see what my Dad went through around this town when we were growing up.... literally NO ONE could fix anything that required a level of analysis at all... even after like 7 or more visits. The end result would be Dad would go out to buy a newer used car.

[searcherrr]

Think about it.... when i PULLED the EVAP harness connector the van didn't try to stall that 1 time its probably because there was higher fuel psi and stability to run the engine through the fans cycling off, but subsequent times it just didn't work out maybe cause the PCM learned from that 1 instance where the EVAP was out of the loop and then the same problem came back again.

Hopefully the injectors will be here tomorrow cause I got some really fudged up stuff going on at the home front right now.

[searcherrr]

Thinking I was sent the wrong injectors. Part#'s do not match, but I think they are the bigger ones for 96-97 and possibly... and UP.

Question becomes: Using bigger injectors on stock setup that requires less lbs/hr injector fuel flow rate will I have a negative performance or mpg effect?