Chevy vs Ford

[Moppie]

Originally Posted by knightjp

Which brand of cars (Chevy or Ford) is better???

I'm trying to draw you towards the realisation that they are both crap.
So it doesn't really matter.

[knightjp]

Crap wouldn't be the right word.

You can't deny that these companies have given the motoring world some truely legendary cars....

the Corvette, the Mustang, the Camaro,

Out of the new models.... the Focus & Mondeo are reasonably good cars,
the Cavalier was one of the best performing cars I know in terms of reliability..... (I live in the Middle East. You learn what can take the extreme heat here).... where BMWs and Mercedes cars have stalled and failed, American cars have done well.

[hotrod_chevyz]

Originally Posted by Moppie

I'm trying to draw you towards the realisation that they are both crap.
So it doesn't really matter.

If you could explain your reasoning besides just saying they are crap maybe your plan will work.

What car company is so much better that you can put down American cars and call them crap?

Originally Posted by knightjp

OK.... I apologise for any hard feelings here

Im certain nobody has any hard feelings over a simple forum discussion.

[knightjp]

Originally Posted by hotrod_chevyz

If you could explain your reasoning besides just saying they are crap maybe your plan will work.

What car company is so much better that you can put down American cars and call them crap?

I'm sensing that his username gives us a clue as to what he supports...

Moppie = Mopar

He's a Dodge fan.....

[sickcallawayc12]

My experience with Ford, ownership and work vehicle, they are crap, period. My reason is because through my experience with them, they are unreliable. They have simply let me down too many times. Sorry. IMO, they only know how to make a pickup last long and that's it.

As for Chevy, I am wrong, there is nothing wrong with them really. While i've never owned a Chevy car, with my experience with their cars and the year or so of ownership with my Blazer, Chevy is good, but have this "3rd place" feel to them. I dunno if its good or bad, but it doesn't make them crap or bad vehicles, they are all right overall. Again, i've never owned a Chevy car, but have owned a Saturn car (GM make) and my dad is on his 3rd Saturn and we are very happy with these cars even though the feelings are the same (good vehicle, but a 3rd place feel).

[Moppie]

Originally Posted by hotrod_chevyz

If you could explain your reasoning besides just saying they are crap maybe your plan will work.

What car company is so much better that you can put down American cars and call them crap?

Its not hard to find faults with them, the simple fact that both the Camaro and the Mustang both use a live axle doesn't say a lot about the regard for good engingering practice from either GM or Ford.
Its clearly there in order to reduce costs in design and manufacturing and really should not be tolerated by any pro-active, educated and intelligent car buying population.

And the fact that both companies can make such out dated cars, and yet still produce cars like the New Mondeo, or Astra shows a serious lack of consistency in their company philosophies.
Its extremely short sighted, and has to be costing them money by being unable to release models on a global scale.

Of course if happen to like the American V8s from the 60s and 70s then the Camaro and Mustang are the perfect cars. GM and Ford have simply added ABS and Fuel injection to make them easier to drive for you.
But which is better is going to be a matter of personal choice, you will simply have to drive both.
At the end of the day though there are more sophisticated, better engineered cars available.


GM and Ford are both the global giants of the car industry, yet they are totaly unable to release global car models that will appeal to the global car market.
Given that Ford invented the idea with the Model T, you would think they might have perfected the idea by now.
Instead its the Japanese and the Europeans who are showing them how it should be done, cars like the VW/Audi Golf/A3, Toyota Corolla and Honda Civic are sold all over the world in pretty much the same form with small differences to allow for local market variations.


And for the record I'm not a "mopar" fan.

[knightjp]

I know there are faults with Chevys and Fords.... but that doesn't mean that they are crap. These faults are just too minimal to be real hard issues.
If there is one thing that these companies produce is really good engines. So much so that they are used by many different manufacturer.

I'm not surprised that the Germans make such good cars... the car is originally a German invention (by Mercedes)....
All ford did was device a way to make cars easier and faster. The model T was the first modern produced car.

[Moppie]

Originally Posted by knightjp

I know there are faults with Chevys and Fords.... but that doesn't mean that they are crap. These faults are just too minimal to be real hard issues.
If there is one thing that these companies produce is really good engines. So much so that they are used by many different manufacturer.

I'm not surprised that the Germans make such good cars... the car is originally a German invention (by Mercedes)....
All ford did was device a way to make cars easier and faster. The model T was the first modern produced car.

The model T was the first mass produced car, I wouldn't call it modern

With the exception of very, very low volume manufacturers I can't think of anyone who uses GM and Ford engines.
Honda, Toyota, Mitsubishi, Peugeot and Mercedes are the only manufacturers I can think of who have had their engines used by other companies.

Of course the Small block V8s from both Ford and GM have their place in history, they have been made in mind boggling numbers, have proven their reliability, and their ability to make good power, and have done so using a very basic design.
Sadly there is more to a car than its engine.

[hotrod_chevyz]

Many GM cars can and have been pounded down the road for several hundred thousand miles before the engine is rebuilt. Then its pounded down the road for a couple hundred thousand more before the process is repeated once again... Countless cars here in america have half a million miles or more on the same body. GM engines, especially the older ones are long lasting and are known for this. Its not unusual at all to see over 300K on stock engines/trans owned by a complete moron who never gets the oil changed on time or keep it maintained in any other way.

Fact is most older GM cars are on 2nd or 3rd engines (or more), each lasting between 200k-300k on average. Most of these im speaking of are owned by people who couldnt even tell you how to change the oil... So as "obsolete" as they may seem, i dont see any of the other cars mentioned in this thread capable of this. They are what i call "throw away cars". They arent worth the cost of repair IMO. I mean who wants to drive a Civic or Corolla for that many miles even if it was possible? I WILL NOT put my family in a car like that, its simply not safe on a road with so many big trucks like Ford Excretions or cars like my 72 Catalina. If my Catalina was to hit a Civic nothing would be left of the civic to speak of. Hell my HOOD is as long as a civic. And the CAT gets 17MPG and has enough torque to pull down a MC Donalds.

Perhaps the dependability of our american cars are why the big three are in a sales slump. The cars dont die and when they do, they are so cheap to fix it would be a waste of money to go get another car when this one is doing just fine and has done so for 20+ years needing minor $ worth of repairs.

[knightjp]

Rightly said....

Perhaps the sales figures of Japanese and German cars are not on how many cars are sold, but how many times one has to replace the car...

Its true that American cars can pound on the miles and keep on going till they finally die.... but it must be said that here in the Middle East... Its a not very often to see an American car havin an engine changed, but you'll find that doing it is a tiny bit more expensive than for the Jap models...

[Moppie]

Originally Posted by hotrod_chevyz

Many GM cars can and have been pounded down the road for several hundred thousand miles before the engine is rebuilt..................

Anyone can tell stories of cars that have done very high milages.
There are plenty of none GM and Ford cars that have done hundreds and thousands, or even millions of ks on original engines.
A very simple, un-stressed engine design is not something that is somehow unique to GM and Ford.
Plenty of Toyota's and Honda's have traveled huge distances as well.
I personally know of a Honda Accord with over 750,000kms, while one of the reps at work had his brand new Ford Falcon blow up on his way home from the dealer.



The simple fact is GM and Ford both sell extremely outdated vehicles to the American public, and get away with it by hiding behind marketing and rhetoric.

There is a very good reason the Mustang and the Camaro are sold in such limited numbers out side of the US to a very small niche market of die hard fans. Here in NZ the cost of a new Mustang is twice what it costs in the US, thanks to conversion to RHD and the huge mark up the importer (Ford NZ) can get away with putting on them.

[knightjp]

I hear you....

Toyotas and Hondas are able to pile on the miles.... but only if used in a way that the engines are not overloaded all the time.....

If there is one thing that the GM and Ford engines have is huge amounts of Torque at low revs.... so you also get the ability of dragging heavy loads as you pile on miles with incredible ease....

if you argue that Toyota Land Cruisers and Hilux pickups do the same... I agree... but there is a limit and you can't cross it because of their engine sizes....

[Moppie]

Originally Posted by knightjp

I hear you.....

Almost.

Any car, with the exception of some very bad designs, and those with very highly tuned engines, can pile on huge distances.
99% of the cars on the road are using engines that are operating at less than 25% of the potential out put assuming enough fuel and air could be supplied.
So there is a huge margin for error and lots of inbuilt reliability.

What kills any motor is turning it on, once its up to temperature and running very, very little wear occurs.
If you rally wanted a measure of how worn an engine might be you would have a started counter, not a distance traveled counter.
Distance traveled only really gives you some idea of how worn out drive line components might be, things that are usually age dependent, rather than distance traveled dependent. Most rubber parts for example will expire from old age before over use.

[Moppie]

Originally Posted by knightjp

If there is one thing that the GM and Ford engines have is huge amounts of Torque at low revs.... so you also get the ability of dragging heavy loads as you pile on miles with incredible ease....

So are you saying that the 1L motor in a ford Fiesta makes huge amounts of torque and is suitable for dragging heavy loads?

Large capacity engines tend to make lots of torque at low rpm, and it just so happens that Ford and GM both make a variety of large capacity engines that are fitted to the larger vehicle range.
In fact they both have the market pretty well cornered when it comes to large capacity V8s sold globally, and now that Ford has dropped its old 351 motor for a new 4.2L, that leaves GM out on its loan some with a single cam 6L V8 to share with the world.
Not that there is anything wrong with the Chevy small block, its been an important engine for GM, is one of the best V8s ever built and is clearly still quite capable.
Its just that after 30 or 40 or however many years it's been around, you would think GM would have developed something better by now.
BMW, Mercedes, Toyota, Ford (yes ford) and VAG all make 8 Cylinder engines that are just as effective, last just as long, can make just as much hp, but are all much, much smaller in capacity.

[knightjp]

Well I've seen engines give way for a variety of reasons.... Chief among which is just nothing but pure neglect.

Over here in the Middle East, engines give out due to extreme heat and lack of proper cooling, overloading and running huge distances.. thus causing the engine to constantly be on high revs and strain & not replacing worn parts in time....

So far here people take care of GM n Ford motors because of their value and the simple fact that it costs more to replace one than with a Japanese motor.