front wheel drive is bad for high performance automobiles

[tuske427]

Just looking to ruffle some feathers with this one. don't take it personally, let's have some fun debating...

Front wheel drive is bad for high performance. 1- It fights the laws of physics. when accelerating, there is a known factor of "weight transfer". This places weight over the rear wheels for additional traction. Great if you have a rear wheel drive car, bad for front wheel drive. It is also a fact when cars drag race and are pulling a wheelie- this is a point of maximum traction because 100% of the car's weight is on the drive wheels. This is an impossible scenerio for a front wheel drive car. (not to mention "torque steer" or having to add complicated limited slip devices to "fix" this inherant problem) 2- you have less overall control of your car with a front wheel drive than you do a rear wheel drive. with a front wheel drive- it's like placing all your eggs in one basket. you have acceleration, steering and major braking all with your front wheels. If they lose traction, you're SOL. with a rear wheel drive- you can push your car with the rear wheels and steer/ stop with the front. 3- All real "performance" cars are rear wheel drive. (not counting awd here) but how many front wheel drive Shelby Cobras, ferraris, corvettes, porsches, mclarens, etc.. do you see in front wheel drive? How many F1 cars, NASCARs, Top Fuel dragsters, etc do you see in front wheel drive? There is a reason all the world's top companies, teams, etc use rear wheel drive over front. With all the technology and resources available, if front wheel drive was better, they'd be using it. Even the us auto industry is returning to rwd.

The only "purpose" front wheel drive can serve is for bare bones economy cars too cheap to use awd for consumers who can't drive well enough anyhow without the crutch of engine weight over the drive wheels and are not interested in high performance.

[Speedsteve]

Originally Posted by tuske427

Just looking to ruffle some feathers with this one. don't take it personally, let's have some fun debating...

Front wheel drive is bad for high performance. 1- It fights the laws of physics. when accelerating, there is a known factor of "weight transfer". This places weight over the rear wheels for additional traction. Great if you have a rear wheel drive car, bad for front wheel drive. It is also a fact when cars drag race and are pulling a wheelie- this is a point of maximum traction because 100% of the car's weight is on the drive wheels. This is an impossible scenerio for a front wheel drive car. (not to mention "torque steer" or having to add complicated limited slip devices to "fix" this inherant problem) 2- you have less overall control of your car with a front wheel drive than you do a rear wheel drive. with a front wheel drive- it's like placing all your eggs in one basket. you have acceleration, steering and major braking all with your front wheels. If they lose traction, you're SOL. with a rear wheel drive- you can push your car with the rear wheels and steer/ stop with the front. 3- All real "performance" cars are rear wheel drive. (not counting awd here) but how many front wheel drive Shelby Cobras, ferraris, corvettes, porsches, mclarens, etc.. do you see in front wheel drive? How many F1 cars, NASCARs, Top Fuel dragsters, etc do you see in front wheel drive? There is a reason all the world's top companies, teams, etc use rear wheel drive over front. With all the technology and resources available, if front wheel drive was better, they'd be using it. Even the us auto industry is returning to rwd.

The only "purpose" front wheel drive can serve is for bare bones economy cars too cheap to use awd for consumers who can't drive well enough anyhow without the crutch of engine weight over the drive wheels and are not interested in high performance.

Greetings from Germany - Germany the FWD Country!
In the meantime are approximately 240 FWD hp possible ( with modern technology! ). But the most cars in Germany have less power! And in this "low Power" Cars has the FWD many advantages.

http://www.autobild.de/aktuell/neuhe...rtikel_id=8041

look - approximately 240hp

http://www.autobild.de/aktuell/neuhe...rtikel_id=8168

look - approximately 200hp

.

[2strokebloke]

This is why front wheel drive cars have been beating RWD cars in rallies ever since FWD car have been competing...
Take a look at the famous monte carlo race - FWD SAABs, then Minis dominated the event until Porsches with more than twice as much horsepower started winning...
In any race taking place in less than ideal conditions (as in not a Nascar oval or on clean dry tarmac) front wheel drive cars hold the advantage, even over cars with much more power - because they go where you point them, and don't suffer from sideslip in wet or icy conditions.
RWD only makes sense when the engine is mounted in the rear mounting the engine up front and then driving the rear wheels is the most illogical setup ever devised - it's the most difficult to produce, as well as the most expensive, it uses the most parts, and weighs the most. It's handling is barely better than comparative FWD cars in many cases.
Mounting the engine in the rear, provides the best traction, and braking of any of the other layouts, it's also the cheapest to produce, and the lightest.
It also allows for a lower hoodline, and therefore better aerodynamics, and efficiency. With the proper suspension the disadvantages to handling caused by the rear weight bias can easily be overcome.
Why aren't there more rear engined cars? Because the car buying public is very conservative. It's surprising then that some of the longest produced cars have been rear engined - the VW beetle was produced until 2004, and even Fiat's 600 lived on until the 1980's in upgraded forms. Porsche still makes rear engined cars.

[drunken monkey]

there is also a little truth in that bmw has forced the idea of ultimate driving machine and rear wheel drive being the same thing into the heads of the public.

a long time ago, saab (i think) said that during test they performed, rwd only really becomes an option when you go over 250 bhp; anything less and you are better off with fwd, although at the limit you'd need some kind of diff to give you a little hand.
(all depending on engine location of course....)

fwd cars that will run rings around similar rwd cars.
integra type r, new civic type-r, accord type-r (spot a pattern?), fiat coupe, new mini cooper s, clio 182, ford puma and a couple more but i'm too lazy to think right now.

[tuske427]

Thank you all for replying. I've enjoyed reading each of your answers. I'll try to reply on them, hopefully I don't miss anything...

I disagree with rwd being the most illogical, expensive, heaviest, etc.. Anything with 4wd or awd will be heavier, more expensive, more complicated, etc.. (more parts, more technology, etc..)

The Current corvette (both C5 and C6 platforms) have made great strides in a front engine/ rear wheel drive layout. They have a very good weight bias, and a low front end for aerodynamics. Maybe we'll see more of this style layout in future vehicles??

I think in the US, at least, the Corvair has had a very negative effect on the consumer public regarding rear engine/ rear wheel drive cars. At least domestic models. While VW and Porsche has proven that this layout is fine, people here still remember the corvair. GM tried again with the pontiac Fiero (rear engine/ rwd car) and it was only around for a few years. Granted, it suffered from other problems, but people (consumers) may associate unsuccessful cars with this layout. At least they didn't use a swing arm supension on the Fiero!

I would guess cost is the real reason they aren't making more of them..

As for racing, why aren't more front wheel drive cars used? Even in NASCAR- they convert the front wheel drive cars (vehicles they are based on) into rear wheel drive.

They have FWD cars in drag racing, but the rwd are the fastest..

I know very little about rally cars, but I thought they use AWD...

Drifting- they use RWD... F1- rwd, CART, Indy, etc...

I'm still not a fan of front wheel drive, and it's nothing more than my opinion. It's my personal experiences that have lead me to this, not the marketing from BMW or anyone else.

Thanks!

[Speedsteve]

Originally Posted by tuske427

As for racing, why aren't more front wheel drive cars used? Even in NASCAR- they convert the front wheel drive cars (vehicles they are based on) into rear wheel drive.

They have FWD cars in drag racing, but the rwd are the fastest..

I know very little about rally cars, but I thought they use AWD...

Drifting- they use RWD... F1- rwd, CART, Indy, etc...
Thanks!

Sorry I comes from Germany and does not understand so much.
How often you drive with your Car Rally, Drag Race, NASCAR, CART, Indy and so on???
I drive with my both 70hp Cars, on dry road or on ice and snow, to my work place, to the Shopping Mall, in the Vacation. I drive with 1, 2, 3, or 4 Peoble with / without Luggage. I drive Day per Day of the Highway with a little over 100mph and so on. For this kind of driving is FWD absolute O.K.!
The only RWD Thing which I have is a little Harley Davidson!

.

[YukiHime]

Originally Posted by tuske427

I disagree with rwd being the most illogical, expensive, heaviest, etc.. Anything with 4wd or awd will be heavier, more expensive, more complicated, etc.. (more parts, more technology, etc..)

First of all, he/she is only talking about FR(And FMR), not all RWD(MR, RR).

Originally Posted by tuske427

I think in the US, at least, the Corvair has had a very negative effect on the consumer public regarding rear engine/ rear wheel drive cars. At least domestic models. While VW and Porsche has proven that this layout is fine, people here still remember the corvair. GM tried again with the pontiac Fiero (rear engine/ rwd car) and it was only around for a few years. Granted, it suffered from other problems, but people (consumers) may associate unsuccessful cars with this layout. At least they didn't use a swing arm supension on the Fiero!

I have no idea what is Corvair, but I do know that a Fiero is a MR, not a RR(MR and RR are different)...And at the same time, there was a car made by toyota called MR2, which was highly sucessful. So it's basically GM's own problem made it sucks...

Originally Posted by tuske427

As for racing, why aren't more front wheel drive cars used? Even in NASCAR- they convert the front wheel drive cars (vehicles they are based on) into rear wheel drive.

You got this right, some NASCAR are based on FWD cars. But the fact is only the outlook is based on them, the chassis, engine, almost EVERYTHING are different.

Originally Posted by tuske427

I know very little about rally cars, but I thought they use AWD...

Shoot, I thought the Ford Escort WRC version was a FWD...

Originally Posted by tuske427

Drifting- they use RWD... F1- rwd, CART, Indy, etc...

Ever seen an EVO drifts? It's a FWD based AWD car.(From 100:0 to 50:50). I can show you how to drift with my RSX.

Originally Posted by tuske427

I'm still not a fan of front wheel drive, and it's nothing more than my opinion. It's my personal experiences that have lead me to this, not the marketing from BMW or anyone else.

Thanks!

The true reason that FWD has such a large market now is that they cost less to produce. They have more interior room compare with same dimension FR. They have less chance get stuck in icy roads than FR does.
That's why I don't drive my RX in winter.

[drunken monkey]

in certain cars, front engine/rear drive is a bit illogical.
the bmw 1 series is a good example.
sure they've made a good driving car (according to the press) but considering the car is supposed to be a useful family hatchback, something isn't quite right.... then there's the price of the thing caused in part to the drivetrain.
factor in the handling abilities of things like the new golf gti and the mini cooper s and you'll see why a lot of people question the logic of the bmw 1 series.

admittedly, the cost factor is one thing that the front engine/front drive set up affects. it is cheaper to produce but then again, if you look at the handling gods in terms of fwd cars, you'll see that a lot of them have a rather tasty and expensive diff in there.
it works out about the same.....

as people have already said, front engine/rear drive only begins to make sense when you are around 240+ bhp.
below that, there's no point beyond a snobbery of some sort. in general, suspension set up plays a bigger part than the drivetrain.
if you're after straight line figures then not many 230bhp cars can do a 0-60 faster than a focus RS.

by the way, wht escort are you talking about?
the ford escort wrc i know about is a 4wd car.

[Speedsteve]

Originally Posted by YukiHime

I have no idea what is Corvair,

Racing with FWD Cars:

http://www.btccpages.com/2004/teams.php

Rallye EM

http://www.rallye1.de/web/em/artikel..._eingeloggt___

VW Motorsport

http://www.volkswagen-motorsport.de/...lo-cup/?type=1

Suzuki

http://www.suzuki-swt.com/e/rallynews/050213/index.html

Junior Cup

http://www.rallye-magazin.de/index.p...ew=news_detail

http://www.adac-motorsport.de/index....&kategorieid=1

SEAT Leon Supercopa

http://www.seat.de/su/de/Motorsport/supercopa/main.html

Toyota Yaris

http://www.toyota.de/motorsport/yariscup/index.html

Renault Clio

http://www.cliocup.com/

Honda Civic

http://motorsport.honda.de/show.phtm...iverses&id=875

http://motorsport.honda.de/show.phtm...=slalom&id=860

Ford Fiesta ST

http://www.ford.de/ns7/fordracing/-/urac01/

Ford Puma Cup

http://www.1999.motorracetime.de/top...e/dieserie.htm

Alfa 147 Cup

http://www.alfa147cup.de/hintergrund/

and so on, and so on, and so on,


Translate? - http://www.google.com/language_tools


.

[drunken monkey]

...pretty much meaningless.
the cup races are races with everyone in the same car.
the only one there that has cars with different set ups is the btcc which had one (i think) bmw running last year. it used to have the 4wd audi but that was banned becuse despite the weight disadvantage, it still beat everyone consistantly,
which goes back to the point the discussion is about:
when all things are equal, fwd drive cars can't compete (assuming we're talking 250+ bhp).

by the way.
posting a picture of a car that someone doesn't know, especially a 30 odd year old one isn't much use.
the corvair is/was a rear engined car that gm produced way back when....
it suffered a lot of accidents, lots of lawsuits and since then, gm seems to have stayed away from trying anything truely innovative ever again.

[Speedsteve]

VW Lupo B&B ( Street Legal FWD Tuning Car )

300hp / 5900rpm
302lbf ft / 2600rpm
156mph
0 to 60 in 5.8sec.
2347lbs

Less than 250hp however nevertheless interesting

"Road Test: Dodge SRT-4, Ford Mustang GT, Mitsubishi Lancer Evolution RS, Nissan 350Z Enthusiast, and Volkswagen R32"

http://motortrend.com/roadtests/coup...ng/index3.html

posting a picture of a car that someone doesn't know, especially a 30 odd year old one isn't much use.

???

.

[drunken monkey]

that's quite a good example of what i mean.
that lupo has 300 hp and does a 0-60 in 5.8.
the standard focus rs does 0-60 in about 5.9 BUT it is a heavier car and it has 70 hp less than the lupo, less torque.
that extra 70 hp doesn't do much except give the front tyres more work to do.

look at the FQ-300.
its 4wd lets it do the 0-60 sprint a second faster and without doubt would beat the lupo on any track.

[Speedsteve]

The statement was - front wheel drive is bad for high performance automobiles!
My answer - up to a certain limit - No!

[drunken monkey]

but then there's also something to consider.
frd cars don't generally need extra gubbins to help keeps its wheels from turning into expensive road markings (tvrs have lived happily enough without anything AND 300+bhp)

going back to the Integra type-r and the fiat coupe.
without the split diff, would they still handle the way they do?

[tuske427]

Originally Posted by Speedsteve

Sorry I comes from Germany and does not understand so much.
How often you drive with your Car Rally, Drag Race, NASCAR, CART, Indy and so on???
I drive with my both 70hp Cars, on dry road or on ice and snow, to my work place, to the Shopping Mall, in the Vacation. I drive with 1, 2, 3, or 4 Peoble with / without Luggage. I drive Day per Day of the Highway with a little over 100mph and so on. For this kind of driving is FWD absolute O.K.!
The only RWD Thing which I have is a little Harley Davidson!

.

HI:

No problem. You're doing much better than I. I know only one launguage, so I will not fault your English one bit. I was not able to read the previous links (in German) you sent before.

I don't race currently, but I used to take 2 of my Pontiac Trans Ams drag racing to several tracks here in the US (mostly English town, NJ). I've done a lot of "back road" racing. (The type most of us do) One of my first cars was a 1974 saab model 99. This was the worst vehicle I have ever owned/ driven in the winter (lived in upstate NY at the time) This car could not go straight on a snow covered road unless you were going 40 mph or less. any faster and it would try to pull to the side. Either side. It was never consistent. It was a terrible performing car. It also handled very poorly. It must not have had any anti sway bars. My other car at the time was a 1978 chevy camaro. this car was much more predictable on the roads. I could slide this around turns, curves, etc with confidence. I could go as fast as I was brave enough to go on a snow covered road. I will admit that car had trouble starting out from an intersection due to the weight bias (front engine/ rwd) but my original arguement was never about this- it is for "high performance" applications. Not family cars and mundane daily driving situations which is where some people are pushing this debate towards. (I got the Saab as a "winter car". Apparantly I got the wrong one.)

I am currently building a vintage hot rod (1957 Plymouth Belvedere with a corvette LS1) and I have a motorcycle (Yamaha R6) that I love to take through the canyons/ mountain roads here in southern CA. After the Belvedere I will be restoring my wife's 1967 Mustang and then rebuilding/ Hot Rodding my 1984 Trans Am. Plus any other unexpected projects that may come my way. They always do...