Turbo rods into EV6 block.

[tonnerboy]

Hi. I'm from Australia and I own a 1991 VN Commodore. It has a buick V6 in it. It's a EV6 block if that means anything. I am planning a big build up for this motor and was wanting to know whether the buick turbo rods will mate up to the standard EV6 crank? Also I was wanting to use some aftermarket forged pistons, and I am wondering if any of you guys use any of these pistons from various manufacturers, and what part number they are, just so I know what part to order if I get them. I've been told that the turbo rods are about .400 inch shorted than the standard EV6 rods, so I would have to use some turbo piston's or the like if I used these rods. I'm only wanting about 450-500hp using Nitrous.

Thanks in advance.

[Hypsi87]

I don't think it could work the casting number on the buick turbo block. is LC109 not EV6

[tonnerboy]

Ok, what is the rod journal size on the big ends on the turbo rods?

I'm told that the EV6 block over here is almost the same as the N/A 3800 over there, except a few minor changes.

[Hypsi87]

What year 3.8 series one or II?? Ill get the measuments for you later.

[tonnerboy]

It's a series 2, 1991 engine. Over here the series 1 engines had the water inlet manifold housing at the rear, and also a 2 peice rear main seal. The series 2 (mine) has the water inlet at the front and has a single piece rear main seal. There's a few other minor changes, but they're the main ones. Hope that helps.

[buickshoprat]

One major change between the Series I & II engines is the case height, the Series II being the lower of the two.
For a while we were running both types down the assembly line together and we had to use what we called "deck plates," which went under the cases to raise the height as it sat in "the nest" and was transferred from station to station.
By using these deck plates, it raised the case up enough for our multiple spindle wrenchs to line up for fastening purposes, which is a critical factor when it comes to getting the sockets on the bolt heads.
After the engines reached the end of the line, the deck plates, which were heavy as all get out, had to be put on carts and taken back up to the head of the line to start another journey through our process.
We did this for a while even after we switched over totally to the Series II cases, that is until all the "nests" could be modified.

Jack

[buickshoprat]

After thinking about this a bit, I realized that you mentioned your engine was a 1991, which to us here at Flint V-6 would mean a Series I and did indeed carry the EV6 designation on the block.
I'm almost sure that the one piece rear lip seal and the rear seal carrier plate, which replaced the older style mentioned, came on line with the Series II, which we started to manufacture in 1994 and first showed up in GM vehicles during the '95 MY.
Both of these parts mentioned we install in the department I work in so I'm racking my brain trying to figure this one out and can only come with that maybe it's a Holden thing. I'll have to check into this one.

Jack

[tonnerboy]

Thanks man. Our series 2 is a Holden Modified version of our Series 1, which seems to be the same engine as your Series 1. Apparently the NVH (Noise, Vibration, Harshness) of our Series 1 wasn't very good, and they were a little rough. With the series 2 (ours) they changed a few things here and there, like the different rear main seal. Just thought that perhaps our Series 2 was already being made in the States before we got it, but doesn't seem so.

After doing a fair bit of research and talking to a few people it seems like the Turbo Rods will fit into our motors. We even compared a assembled set of turbo rods and pistons against a standard set. Same overall length, and the same ID big ends.

[tonnerboy]

Oh, and one other thing. From what you told me about your Series 2 engines, it appears that they are what we have over here called the ECOTEC V6. They have a deck height that is 1 inch lower than the older style engines. Plus we got them around 1995 or 96 too.

[buickshoprat]

Thanks tonnerboy, that one really had me going.
It's interesting that you were using the one piece rear lip seal before we were, which they must have had trouble installing from time to time.

The reason I say this, is that we were paid a visit by a team from Holden around 1996 or 1997 and they were especially interested in how we installed that type of seal in our process. I think we stood by our lip seal press for at least a half an hour while they asked question after question. I really enjoyed this as I got to ask questions of my own about their process. Nice group!

Jack

[tonnerboy]

Hmmm, interesting. Our Series 2 blocks had a different design rear main seal on them and therefore different cranks too, although most of the design is the same. So I'd guess it's, again, a Holden thing. Our Series 2 rear seals would be a special design by Holden and not related to the ECOTEC (your series 2) V6's. I haven't heard of anyone having problems with the seal in their ECOTEC, but then again I haven't had much to do with the ECOTEC.

So I guess the line up of our V6 goes something like this:

Series 1 (Same as your Series 1)
Series 2 (Holden modified V6 based on the Series 1.)
ECOTEC (Same as your Series 2)

[buickshoprat]

Our plant supplies Holden with a few of their major components, the cases being one of them and the cranks another.
My spin on this is that they were probably ramping up to run our Series II so they wanted to see how we did things. I know that looking at our rear lip seal press wasn't the only thing they looked at during their visit as they were there for a few days.
I also know that their line speed is no where near ours, especially at the time of their visit. At that time we were running 267 engines per hour, which seemed to amaze the heck out of them. That's one of the things we discussed.
I've noticed that on this web-site that the predesessor to our Series II is referred to as Series I, a term we've never used. To us, they are either an EV6, or a Series II. I've tried to use the term Series I here but just can't seem to get used to it.

Because the distance the parts we supply them have so far to travel we handle Holden parts in a special manner. Our process requires that we "set aside" Holden parts, known as Holden float, until we run some that were machined at the same time down through our process to see if we have any major issues to deal with. We do our best to prevent shy / defective taps or "bad mills" being sent down to them.
Because of this, we like to call ourselves on the line, "The big gauge," which, in essence, is exactly what we are.

It's better to find things "In house" before we ship them down your way than after they get on the ship.

Jack

[tonnerboy]

I had a chat to a few people about our early ECOTEC V6's (your series 2) and it does seem that Holden was having massive problems with the rear seals in them. One guy had his go with just 30,000 km's on the clock, then again at 47,000! Seems like Holden fixed this in the next incarnation of the engine though, thanks to you guys obviously!

I'm also thinking that your EV6 blocks may be the same as our Series 2 blocks, but not sure. If this was so then where did our Series 1 engines come from? I'll have to check for sure whether our Series 2's have a single rear main seal or not. I was sure they did, but not so sure now.

[comp]

hey guys! i posted a new info Question can ya' add info on 3800's

[buickshoprat]

Originally Posted by tonnerboy

I had a chat to a few people about our early ECOTEC V6's (your series 2) and it does seem that Holden was having massive problems with the rear seals in them.

Interesting tonnerboy, that may explain their more than casual interest in our rear lip seal process. They were all over our press looking at it from all angles and asking question after question.

I'll ask around in our case dept. today and see what I can come up with on just how many different cases that we've supplied Holden's over the years.

Jack