Question re: lifters - need a quick answer

[91Caprice9c1]

The low oil pressure is not a good sign, and neither is the sound you are describing. The low oil pressure may or may not be the result of too much bearing clearance in the motor, and the sound you are describing seems like it could be the piston slap we were talking about which is the precursor to piston snap (broken piston).

Originally Posted by 91caprice9c1

I think it would be very worth your time to invest in accurately measureing your cylinder bore and comparing to spec.

-shrugs-

You need to either a) overhaul this motor (rebuild) or b) invest in a JDM swap. This motor sounds toast.

-MechanicMatt

[Syndrome Zed]

Originally Posted by 91Caprice9c1

The low oil pressure is not a good sign, and neither is the sound you are describing. The low oil pressure may or may not be the result of too much bearing clearance in the motor, and the sound you are describing seems like it could be the piston slap we were talking about which is the precursor to piston snap (broken piston).



-shrugs-

You need to either a) overhaul this motor (rebuild) or b) invest in a JDM swap. This motor sounds toast.

-MechanicMatt

Napoleon is dead.


I'm thinking B, or C, now - buy a "new" Metro. That noise was apparently a rod about to be thrown - which it finally was on my way home last night. The last time I threw a rod was waaaay back when I had a Ford Escort in the late 80's, but as soon as the loud death rattle started and the car nearly overheated, I knew what was going on. So I limped home and started trying to figure out my options.

I'd complain more about what a waste the last couple weeks were in time and money, but a) I learned a s***load about car engines, and b) I'm more disappointed b/c it seemed to have so much potential.

Anyhow...I'm checking into getting a JDM up in LA, so I won't have to have it shipped, and looking around to see if there are any other G10-based Metros in the area for sale. But the body's in good shape, and the tranny seems fine, so even if I have to have someone put the engine in for me it might still be worth it compared to just buying a replacement. I need a car that gets very high mpg, and don't have the $$$ for a hybrid, so the Metro variants and one or two of the Honda Civic variants are really my only options right now. Unless I suddenly get one of the jobs I've been applying for.



So here's something to ponder - Cali offers a thousand dollars to voluntarily retire a car if it fails a smog check....BUT the car has to be driven to an official wrecker and pass a visual and operational inspection. So here's my question - if I was to drop the oil pan, open the head, and pull the trashed piston completely out, do you think the engine would pass a quick check to see if it's "operational"? In other words, can I effect a very temporary repair that would let me get it to a smog station and then to a wrecker? There'd be so much fuel being sprayed into the dead piston's combustion chamber there's no way it could pass emissions, after all. I'm pretty sure I'd get more from the gubmint than I would from a regular wrecker, y'know?

[91Caprice9c1]

I do not recommend operating an engine minus a piston. In all likelihood the fuel would not go out the exhaust, but right into the oil pan - and unless you figured out some very tricky and foolproof way to disable the spark to that one cylinder while keeping the visual good you'd have an extreme explosion hazard on your hands after the crankcase fills up with a critical amount of fuel vapor and the spark plug ignites it.

Just rebuild the bottom end. Take the engine out, tear it down, have the block machined, get new pistons/rings, bearings, oil pump and gasket set, slap the old head on and get it done with. Just my opinion. Rebuilding the bottom end - it could cost less than a JDM motor easily without any head work. But that is only if you have the time to do it yourself, which few people do.

-MechanicMatt

[Syndrome Zed]

Originally Posted by 91Caprice9c1

I do not recommend operating an engine minus a piston. In all likelihood the fuel would not go out the exhaust, but right into the oil pan - and unless you figured out some very tricky and foolproof way to disable the spark to that one cylinder while keeping the visual good you'd have an extreme explosion hazard on your hands after the crankcase fills up with a critical amount of fuel vapor and the spark plug ignites it.

Just rebuild the bottom end. Take the engine out, tear it down, have the block machined, get new pistons/rings, bearings, oil pump and gasket set, slap the old head on and get it done with. Just my opinion. Rebuilding the bottom end - it could cost less than a JDM motor easily without any head work. But that is only if you have the time to do it yourself, which few people do.

-MechanicMatt

Heh, well, it was worth a thought anyway .

Any idea what kind of costs we're talking about here?
Option 1: Swap with a whole motor. I found a JDM for $550 but have seen one or two for a little less (450-475). But what kind of book time are we talking here, for labor purposes. I saw a mention of 14 hours, but is that really the case for such a small engine?
Option 2: Rebuild the block et al. Assume I don't need the head work. Any idea what machining the block would cost? The only catch there is I'm not sure if I can get the engine out on my own. So far everything I've done has been with the block installed - mostly just head work, except for the replacement piston. I have part prices for everything, but what kind of book time would I get hit with here (in addition to machining costs?)?

Thanks for the info. I may have time to post those pics, even if the engine ultimately failed at least you could see where I was going and what WAS accomplished in my delirium over the last couple weeks.

[91Caprice9c1]

I really do suggest pulling the motor yourself no matter which way you go if you have the time to do it. 14 hours isn't outlandish if it's your first go at it. A full weekend for your first time should be plenty of time to complete the removal and replacement. There are quite a few guys here (me included) who have done their own engine work and I'm sure wouldn't mind assisting you through the removal/rebuilding/reinstalling process. On these cars - it really is not so bad.

Call around and ask your local machine shop. Machine work with new pistons, bearings, gasket kit and everything you'll need to do the bottom end should be around $400 without headwork. Pretty close to a JDM +/- $100. The benefits being: you know how to do it, and it's all new stuff (no miles).

-MechanicMatt

[Syndrome Zed]

Originally Posted by 91Caprice9c1

I really do suggest pulling the motor yourself no matter which way you go if you have the time to do it. 14 hours isn't outlandish if it's your first go at it. A full weekend for your first time should be plenty of time to complete the removal and replacement. There are quite a few guys here (me included) who have done their own engine work and I'm sure wouldn't mind assisting you through the removal/rebuilding/reinstalling process. On these cars - it really is not so bad.

Call around and ask your local machine shop. Machine work with new pistons, bearings, gasket kit and everything you'll need to do the bottom end should be around $400 without headwork. Pretty close to a JDM +/- $100. The benefits being: you know how to do it, and it's all new stuff (no miles).

-MechanicMatt

Alright, MM, you've sold me on the rebuild. Well, you and some quick math that showed me getting a "replacement" car would just give me another engine with 100+ thousand miles on it, and the install costs for someone else to do it were way too pricey.

Now, an update: So far, so good, more or less. In about 5 hours I got the head off (again....), the A/C compressor out of the way (damned aftermarket brackets were a pain though, only thing on the car that uses 13 mm bolts), all but one bolt off the alternator bracket (there's always one that gets stuck), the exhaust manifold removed, and the intake/TB and all the tentacles of tubes and electric connectors and stuff out of the way. I didn't remove the intake mani completely, it's still connected to the throttle cable and sitting where the battery would normally sit. The #2 cylinder, the problem piston from before, was the one that blew apart. I started to remove the front motor mount from the engine, then remembered I hadn't drained the oil yet, and the ramp I'm using to support the engine from underneath blocks the drain plug. So I need to pull the ramp and get the oil out before I can start worrying about motor mounts and all that.

The plan: Get the engine disassembled and out of the car by Tuesday at the latest. By Wednesday, I want to get the block in to the machine shop, since I'm going out of town for the Labor Day weekend. Then when I get back I can pick up the block and reassemble the engine.

Next, the questions:
1. I've found a few machine shops with good reps around here and plan on calling tomorrow about quotes. But I'm wondering, what should I plan on taking over to them - the block and crankshaft, or the block, crankshaft, and pistons/rods? I'm also wondering what I'll get back - will they get and install new pistons/rings/seals/oil pump themselves, or will I need to supply the parts and gaskets (either give them the new parts or buy them for my own assembly when I get the block back)? If I have to get the parts myself, it kind of throws a kink into my plan and I'll need to re-figure things.

The Chilton's manual's version of removing the engine is "disassemble everything in the engine compartment, unhook the transaxle from the rest of the drivetrain, then remove the engine and transaxle". I'm starting to reach the steps I haven't done before, so here's a couple questions:

2. Do I need to remove the starter?
3. Is there any reason I can't unbolt the block from the transaxle while they're still in the engine compartment, so I don't have to remove the transaxle at all?
4. I know the flywheel will be bolted to the crankshaft. Will this cause me any problems getting the engine unhooked from the transaxle? It's a stickshift, so I'm guessing the clutch will have to be unhooked from either the flywheel or from the transaxle side.
5. Speaking of the clutch, assuming I have to disassemble it from the flywheel to take the engine in, do I need to get the special pilot tool and the positioning tool Chilton's recommends to put it back together?

I'd like to believe I can just pull the block, without pulling the transaxle, but I can't find any info on that.

Thanks in advance Matt, and everyone else who can help! I appreciate the support and encouragement - with your help Napoleon will be back from exile (or from the near-dead ) soon, and hopefully I'll somehow be able to return the favor.

[91Caprice9c1]

Originally Posted by Syndrome Zed

1. But I'm wondering, what should I plan on taking over to them - the block and crankshaft, or the block, crankshaft, and pistons/rods?

All you need to bring them is the block (with main caps and bolts), crankshaft, and the piston/rod assemblies (with rod caps and nuts). I've learned that machine shops appreciate it when you take everything out off the block down to the absolute bare.

Originally Posted by Syndrome Zed

I'm also wondering what I'll get back - will they get and install new pistons/rings/seals/oil pump themselves, or will I need to supply the parts and gaskets (either give them the new parts or buy them for my own assembly when I get the block back)?

They will install the new pistons on the rods for you. You will need to put everything else back together. This includes installing the rings (no big deal if you pay attention and follow the instructions they come with - and no need for any fancy tools, just spiral them into the ring grooves - more on this in future posts). What I have always had my machinist do for me is order all the parts needed to reassemble the motor. Gasket kits, main and rod bearings, new oil pump, new freeze plugs etc. So that way I get the entire engine back as a package with everything I need. Very convenient and helps to save a lot of time sourcing crap from autozone and wherever else.

Originally Posted by Syndrome Zed

2. Do I need to remove the starter?
3. Is there any reason I can't unbolt the block from the transaxle while they're still in the engine compartment, so I don't have to remove the transaxle at all?
4. I know the flywheel will be bolted to the crankshaft. Will this cause me any problems getting the engine unhooked from the transaxle? It's a stickshift, so I'm guessing the clutch will have to be unhooked from either the flywheel or from the transaxle side.
5. Speaking of the clutch, assuming I have to disassemble it from the flywheel to take the engine in, do I need to get the special pilot tool and the positioning tool Chilton's recommends to put it back together?

I'd like to believe I can just pull the block, without pulling the transaxle, but I can't find any info on that.

You DO need to remove the starter. And don't forget to remove the black flywheel inspection cover underneath. I'd forgotten that bugger in a rush one time and couldn't figure out whey I couldn't pull the motor away from the tranny!!

It is perfectly OK to unbolt the engine from the trans and remove only the engine from the engine compartment - requires some twisting and angling of the motor - but you will get it. Just be sure to support the trans with a jack stand or whatever you have so that it doesn't just "dangle" there.

You will remove the clutch and then the flywheel after the engine is removed. You will NOT need to concern yourself with the flywheel/clutch for the removal of the engine. Just be sure that you pull the engine away from the transmission after your front motor mount is removed and then engine to trans bolts are removed. There is a stud in back on the bottom in the transmission - where a nut is used instead of a bolt to secure the motor to the trans, you will have to clear this stud in order to remove the engine, and in so doing you will seperate the clutch from the input shaft of the trans. You'll understand what I mean if it seems vague now.

You should probably install a new clutch since you are there - a new clutch kit will come with the pilot tool. You WILL NEED the pilot tool to center the clutch disc before reinstalling the engine. If you don't want to buy a clutch kit (100-150USD typically) I'll mail you one for free - I've got a few.

And again, yes, there is nothing stopping you from pulling the engine INDEPEDENTLY and leaving the transaxle in the car.

Originally Posted by Syndrome Zed

Thanks in advance Matt, and everyone else who can help! I appreciate the support and encouragement - with your help Napoleon will be back from exile (or from the near-dead ) soon, and hopefully I'll somehow be able to return the favor.

Congradulations. You are going to learn a lot! Lots of guys here to help you out. If you have any confusions or questions, please post back. If I was unclear about anything in this post, I don't mind clarifying. Goodluck Zed!

-MechanicMatt

[GM Line Rat]

Originally Posted by 91Caprice9c1

You DO need to remove the starter. And don't forget to remove the black flywheel inspection cover underneath. I'd forgotten that bugger in a rush one time and couldn't figure out whey I couldn't pull the motor away from the tranny!!

It is perfectly OK to unbolt the engine from the trans and remove only the engine from the engine compartment - requires some twisting and angling of the motor - but you will get it. Just be sure to support the trans with a jack stand or whatever you have so that it doesn't just "dangle" there.

You will remove the clutch and then the flywheel after the engine is removed. You will NOT need to concern yourself with the flywheel/clutch for the removal of the engine. Just be sure that you pull the engine away from the transmission after your front motor mount is removed and then engine to trans bolts are removed. There is a stud in back on the bottom in the transmission - where a nut is used instead of a bolt to secure the motor to the trans, you will have to clear this stud in order to remove the engine, and in so doing you will seperate the clutch from the input shaft of the trans. You'll understand what I mean if it seems vague now.

You should probably install a new clutch since you are there - a new clutch kit will come with the pilot tool. You WILL NEED the pilot tool to center the clutch disc before reinstalling the engine. If you don't want to buy a clutch kit (100-150USD typically) I'll mail you one for free - I've got a few.

And again, yes, there is nothing stopping you from pulling the engine INDEPEDENTLY and leaving the transaxle in the car.

-MechanicMatt

Pretty much in detail the way mine came out of the car Matt. I removed the crank pulley in order to give myself a little more clearence so the clutch and flywheel cleared the tranny case. a little twist left and right and She cleared it and out. Also, if the car has AC in it, the PITA Bolts/ brackets on the front of the motor have to be removed so the compressor can be lifted up and out of the way, I just hung the compressor out of the way with a metal coat hanger. +1 on the new clutch Kit since you have the engine out Zed.....Good luck on the rebuild....Plenty of knowledgable help here for ya! I'm getting ready to do a rebuild on the 3 Cyl motor that came out of my 94 Metro this Winter and keep it as a spare. My Metro is rust free and I plan on keeping it a long time with Gas near $2.75 a Gallon.

[91Caprice9c1]

Originally Posted by GM Line Rat

...I removed the crank pulley in order to give myself a little more clearence so the clutch and flywheel cleared the tranny case...

...Also, if the car has AC in it, the PITA Bolts/ brackets on the front of the motor have to be removed so the compressor can be lifted up and out of the way, I just hung the compressor out of the way with a metal coat hanger...

Excellent advice here GM, and quite nessecary. Heed this info Zed.

Originally Posted by GM Line Rat

...I'm getting ready to do a rebuild on the 3 Cyl motor that came out of my 94 Metro this Winter and keep it as a spare. My Metro is rust free and I plan on keeping it a long time with Gas near $2.75 a Gallon.

I hear that!

-MechanicMatt

[91Caprice9c1]

Zed - Haven't heard from ya in a while. How's it goin?

[Syndrome Zed]

Hey I'm actually out of town right now at Dragon Con in Atlanta. I got the engine out and started looking around for a machine shop. I sent you a PM too about the clutch kit.

I'll put more up when I get back Monday, but that's the short short version for now.

[91Caprice9c1]

Zed I'm sorry man, I just returned your PM. Be in touch.

-MechanicMatt

[Syndrome Zed]

Well, here's a quick update: I pulled off the oil pan and took out the pistons tonight. The result...the #2 piston bearing cap was just a touch loose despite being the most tightly bolted on cap, but none of them had come completely apart. All three rod bearings were scored, as were the crankshaft journals, with #2 being the worst of the lot. The pistons themselves seemed ok, as did the rods, and the cylinders still felt smooth and well-oiled. I don't know if this is a spun bearing or a thrown rod - feels more like a spun bearing, if I understand that right, since I would have thought a thrown rod would have been a rod that had come completely off of the crankshaft.

Anyway, I'm going to talk to the machinist tomorrow morning with the pieces and see what I can expect.

[Syndrome Zed]

So Matt or anyone else, a new question: Can I use a crankshaft from a car with an automatic tranny in spite of my car being a stick? My understanding is the only difference is what bolts to the crankshaft - the type of flywheel, that is. Are there any other differences?

[91Caprice9c1]

Originally Posted by Syndrome Zed

So Matt or anyone else, a new question: Can I use a crankshaft from a car with an automatic tranny in spite of my car being a stick? My understanding is the only difference is what bolts to the crankshaft - the type of flywheel, that is. Are there any other differences?

There is no difference. You may use a crank out of an automatic. Just be sure it's a 3-cyl crank of course.

When you get a crank Andrew, bring that thing by so that either Yo or I can mic it up and verify the journal sizes.


-MechanicMatt