random car stuff

[bonzelite]

Originally Posted by grantrl78

I just wish this guy would be fair with me. He gets so offended when I try to discuss it with him.

I have so much to learn about business period.
And appreciate how you are willing to discuss this stuff with me.

grant, this area is very vast. i nearly do not know where to continue with it. this could be an entire thread or sticky. "business and art: how to be good at both." i will tell you that from what i see out there, a majority of artists are not shrewd enough at business to really get "what they are worth." so many people with money toss around the artist like a needy child. and lots of artists perpetuate this bias by entertaining it.

i will tell you this. and this is the dead-cold truth: larger companies are often the better to work for, as they have vast money. they are not always willing to part with this money, but if you are good and solid, some of that money is yours automatically. it is a given. the very fact that you are on the phone with them, for example, is a statement. and you can tell them how you will work, where you will work, when you will work. and what you will charge them. this is the self-empowered place in life to be. and it is hard-won to the naive artist. i had a very hard time at the beginning of my career in the city.

there are always a myriad of things to take into account. you must learn to "read" a client, and say things according to their conditions. for example, if i came to you, grant, and said to you: "grant, i am going to charge you nine-thousand dollars an hour for a portrait of your cat," i would be laughed out the door. i would laugh you out the door, too, were you do to that me: you or i can find somebody else to do the drawing just as well, or better, for about five-hundred bucks, total price. this is only an example.

but, if you were Andy Warhol, and charged the same fee, that may be considered a bargain. the point is that without a reputation attached to your work, you can be as good as Leonardo DaVinci, and nobody will give a rats ass.
you can be better than DaVinci, and if you are invisible and carry no reputable claims to results, you are a high-risk vendor, or, worse, a young and naive wannabe. and people will cheapen you by assuming they can get away with paying you very little, yet demanding that you "put out" as if you were laying bricks in the hot sun. as if to work for "them" is this big deal and priviledge.

this can be very depressing and motivate the artist to drink or do narcotics: the "sensitivity" of the artist can get in the way of business. and this is why so many artists remain invisble and struggling and wishing and depressed.

do not take shit personally. and if you do, get the F3ck over it real quick, even if it hurts and you have to swallow it. realize the situation is what it is, and just move on. cleints are a dime-a-dozen, just as artists are. protect the good clients, and throw out the bad ones. you don't "need" every damn job that comes along, even though in the beginning you will turn away nobody. you will do every job. this is the nature of starting the long and painful endurance marathon of the journey. and it is ongoing. you are never "done." or "set." conditions are ever-changing.

i have barely begun to talk about this.

[bonzelite]

for the record, i do mostly tv commercials, not films. films are a once-in-a-blue-moon affair. i typically work exclusively with rob cohen. he requests me every time there is a film. or commercial.

i have many commercial clients. some minor, some bigger. i also do architectural renderings and set plans. my background is engineering drafting. i learned how to draw people and animals later in life. mechanical things came easier to me than organic things. so i attacked the harder things in earnest, as most jobs entail drawing people in action.

i know i have completely hi-jacked this thread. so i apologize for that. but the conversation seems to be quite evolving and intriguing. so on it goes.

[grantrl78]

I wish that you would hijack more threads!!!
Your stories rock.

"toss around the artist like a needy child"

It is kind of sad but that thoroughly sums up my life. I will work
for free, just tell me it looks good.

"The running man" - "The Legend of Billie Jean" I remember those!
I loved those movies.
Man - what a damn great guy to know. Must be cool to have a famous guy going to bat for you.

It is just mindblowing how guys like warhol get to that level where
everything they do is worth hundreds of thousands of dollars.
And how they wink and nod
all the way to the bank. I think it goes back to
what you were saying about
how a brilliant creative mind in fineart is more important than
skill as an artist.

In school art history professors pointed out to me how much of
modern art is about taking aim at the idea of art
as something worth ungodly amounts of money.
And even poking fun at rich brainwashed clients.

Seems like they didn't teach me how not to be on the recieving
end of bad deals in art though. Kind of seems more important now.

[tokes99]

very informative stuff bonzelite, and btw i was not trying to invalidate anyone'd experience, just give my take on it

and yes, i have read that most artist are notorious for not being able to handle the business side and usually have someone do all the numbers stuff so they can concetrate fully on their work...

[bonzelite]

Originally Posted by tokes99

very informative stuff bonzelite, and btw i was not trying to invalidate anyone'd experience, just give my take on it

and yes, i have read that most artist are notorious for not being able to handle the business side and usually have someone do all the numbers stuff so they can concetrate fully on their work...

tokes, i got you, buddy. i didn't take it like that. we encounter different things. yet we encounter similar things. your take on it is valid and i am glad you jumped in. i'd like you to jump in some more, actually.

for grant, others, one blaring contradiction or erroneous point often thrown out in colleges is this bullshit separation of "fine art" and "commercial art." what in the hell is that? rembrandt sold his stuff to the wealthy, and, in turn, made himself famously rich (he died alone and in poverty, however, as he was bad with his finances and did not change with the times).

most of the great heroes of art were all in business. except for the mentally challenged and impoverished van gogh, off my memory, i see only fame, wealth, and art interconnected with politics and history. many artists were sort of "wealthy endentured servants," like michaelangelo, as he was basically a rich slave of the church. he had a sort of implied perma-contract with them. his story is pretty miserable, actually.

the thing is, you cannot escape money. it will either be there for you, or it will be unattainable. particularly for an artist, money is often this whole "issue." it brings up moral, ethical, political issues: am i a capitalist? can i still be "sensitive" to the environment whilst being a capitalist and exploiting consumers? can i endure unfathomable waves of depression? can i be a father and support a family by being a sensitive artist who is kicked around by assholes all month, barley making jack shit for money? how well do i deal with assholes? can i soften my internal rage against passive-aggressive clients? can i stay awake all night sometimes and pour out piles of work and remain creative and solid?

these are vital questions to ask yourself as you are standing in front of the brutal mirror of your life. you must have a serious conversation with yourself.
you must consider that global capitalism is not going to support you as you age. you must front the big bucks for EVERYTHING yourself. retirement is UP TO YOU. get this idea in your head now and avoid suffering later. soon, very soon, this world will be ENTIRELY like that. america will only get MORE like that. no pensions. no supports. too expensive.

if you want to really "do it" like Nike says, then you must be willing to sacrifice the safety zones that entrap others into banal and mediocre existences. do not sell out your life to "falling into" some stupid and safe path in life. you MUST think like an entrepreneur. you must act like one, too. take the risks now and perpetually or you will hate yourself and regret how you wasted your time and life and sold out to a boring lifestyle of safety. or, rather, "perceived" safety, as there is no such thing as security anyway. so just embrace this and jump overboard. move away. piss people off. break up. divorce. skip town. gotta go, see ya.

ironically, you cannot only see $$$$ as the prime motivator. the money will arrive if and when you have taken the risks and the time to become masterful with skill and business savvy. and this takes years. it is like doing hard time in a prison, but you have the ability to choose your hell. this is my life. and it will be yours if you wish.

for grant, others, only when you have gone face-on into hell will you get to heaven in this lifetime of material existence. most people lead unremarkable lives of punching a card, or, worse, in societies where they have few human rights. and their families end up executed in a roadside ditch. most people on this earth do not live in priviledge. most do not realize any scant percentage of their dreams because they are afraid or politically oppressed. most humans on this planet live in poverty.

so can you be a capitalist and buy a home? many homes? by doing your art? can you reward yourself with wealth of spirit and bank account while most of the world is in perpetual suffering?

if so, then pursue your art as a BUSINESS. otherwise, you will be among the open-mic crowd smokng pot and barely making rent for the rest of your life, complaining about how "america is only about business," rather than enjoying it. since that is the case, america is primarily about business and profit, you might as well enjoy what that culture can afford you by becoming an entrepreneur and joining it.

otherwise, go eat dirt naked in the woods. and make your art for yourself all day.

tell that guy who wants to pay you 10 bucks an hour to go f*ck himself. but do it business-like and very hollywood: cut his throat with a smile and a handshake.

[tokes99]

i definitely agree with you bonzelite, on this division of commercial art and fine art in education. at my school and probably many others, there exist an extreme division of all the "arts" one professor got so fustrated with the lack of collaboration that he quit...

besides the foundation classes we take in the 1st year, there is little contact between the different majors, if i had not taken a class on color theory i would not even been aware that my school had a fine arts program!? i have a professor that routinely tells students there is no place for fine art in design....

i would take it a step further though, and say everything has become segregated there used to be a time when there was NO division between art/architecture/biologies/design/engineering/mathematics/philosophy/sciences, most artists dabbleds in many of these field and were astute in their studies of them, da vinci and michealangelo come to mind but they were not the only renaissance men just the most well known...

[grantrl78]

"tell that guy who wants to pay you 10 bucks an hour to go f*ck himself. but do it business-like and very hollywood: cut his throat with a smile and a handshake."

Damn, thanks again bonzelite!
It kind of scares me to possibly lose my
source of income.
But I think I will.

Tokes at uga, it was kind of funny how much graphic design and drawing - painting majors hated each other.
They were in seperate buildings on different parts of campus. Only time I ever went over there was to take some of the elementary art classes and advanced art history classes. I think they saw us as soul - less sellouts
and we joked that they were a bunch of nonworking alcoholics. But honestly, I guess most art is commercial in this country. I can say this - their bathroom graffiti was much more thought provoking and creative than ours.
Maybe they were better than us.....

[bonzelite]

what i don't comprehend about colleges is that the coveted and worshipped "renaissance" was all about an awakening in mankind's awareness of the world. yes, da vinci was not the only one doing science and art. there were many many many. and this is exactly my point: there was a blurring of the disciplines centuries ago. so all of the animostiy and hatred and miscommunication between college campus departments is beyond me, but probably attributable to the basic age-old crap about any bureaucracy: turf and job-protection at the expense of efficiency. divisions in that context, like the government sector for example, create "validity" among each department, as each compartment fights for it's life to stay "alive."

the victims in this case are often the students, as they exit the institution and try to melt back into society -- as a prisoner who has been freed. the student finds out quickly that the world of global capitalism does not have the same set of expectations and parameters as student life does. ie, you are not entitled to a "degree," or safe passage, or a job, or anything in particular, just because you have "studied."

often, you must fend for yourself, doing anything possible, to stay alive. often doing things that have nothing at all to do with anything that you have ever been familiar with. and this is why college, particularly a liberal arts college, is practically useless to prepare you for anything commercial.
(even though i went to a liberal arts college, and had fun)

grant, LOL!! do what you really know is right. and if you really do quit, then that is funny as hell!!!

did someone say "UGA"? as in Georgia? i went to KSU!! in Marietta, GA!!

[grantrl78]

Yep!
The dawgs took my money and gave me a
piece of paper that helped land the glamorous
screenprint job that I now have.
And I still owe em money.

[bonzelite]

i did have fun in college, but what i do today bears little resemblance to what i did in college. for the arts, often, college will not really deliver you to your ultimate path.

a trade school is more likely to help you professionally.

something else to consider, grant: look at the highest possible position at the screenprinting slavery job, and ask a question to yourself: do i want that position? if the answer is "no," then get the F44344@%@$k out soon as you can. typically, these small businesses that hire underlings offer you nothing. will you be able to buy a home on the income from that job? will you be able to support children at that job? if the answer is "no," then get out of there as soon as humanly possible.

if screen printing and design for that venue is your passion, strive to start your own thing. and then you can hire slaves of your own. maybe even buy out the guy whom you currently work for, delivering poetic justice where it is due.

[grantrl78]

I have had enough of screen printing to say that the
answer to each of those questions is no.
It seems way too limiting as a medium.
I do realize that it is a slave job and there is no future in it at all.
And I have been in neutral for years.
Still waiting though, to find what I am good at before I try and
tear outta here. I am waiting for something to click that lets me know
that I am following the right path. I know that it might never happen
but I feel that if I try hard enough at improving - I will be able to land a
job that does not qualify as sweatshop labor doing something that I don't hate.

[bonzelite]

grant, search your feelings like darth vadar said to luke skywalker. luke knew darth vadar was his father when he searched his feelings. he did not like it, but he knew it to be true.

the same thing can apply to our own truths. i know it is "never too late" to begin your life. i wasted years of my life doing things that were not really "me." and i may have been farther along in my path had i heeded my true inner desires. but i was held back by fear.

grant, right now, ask yourself, if you could end up doing something, regardless of the practicality of money as a hurdle, what would you do?

even if it seems crazy or undo-able, that is the truth for you. it is never too late, yes. as tokes said. that is true.

but the longer you wait, the more you will look back in regret. i am telling you.

staying in bumf#$K georgia is one safe but miserable existence. i swear to you that is true. i came from there. i was raised in kennesaw and marietta --great places to raise kids and grow up, bad places to pursue a career in art. that is just one part of it. but i am biased. you may have family, friends, everything in georgia. but are they going to fulfill your dreams? you can always get a plane ticket and visit them.

[grantrl78]

I really appreciate all of your help and support bonzelite,
your advice and experience is worth so much. You are dead on in your assessment of my life. I appreciate your encouragement .

[bonzelite]

Originally Posted by grantrl78

I really appreciate all of your help and support bonzelite,
your advice and experience is worth so much. You are dead on in your assessment of my life. I appreciate your encouragement .

my pleasure. sometimes drawing is not really about drawing. but it is.
and it brings out our vulnerabilities and fears. as well as our strengths.

you're a talented man, and i hope you honor that by treating yourself to a lifestyle that is really more about who you are as a person.

i'm not religious, by any means. but spiritual:

from the gnostic gospel of thomas: "If you bring forth what is within you, what you have will save you. If you do not have that within you, what you do not have within you [will] kill you."

[grantrl78]

Man bonzelite I like to read and think about your replies.
That one is the deepest yet. That kind of thought will bother me over time.
If anything, my time now is very peaceful and secure.
Eventhough I don't have a car I make enough to save some money and I
have alot of free time to draw stuff. I do about 2 jobs a day and get a 300 dollar check a week. I am poor but I pay my bills and dont have to deal with atlanta or la traffic. To me that is worth alot. I am really going to talk seriously with my boss about the money thing and discuss how much money I am making him. On the plus side, I work from home and it is a cool thing! But I know I will feel some serious regret when I am making 20k a year when I am 40.
Maybe I can rationalize the capitalist thing away by becoming a buddhist.
And learn to let go of everything material. Nah....I am gonna get a skyline before I die dammit!


I also like the american beauty take on life and jobs. Lester wasn't happy untill he told his boss to shove it and started working at krusty burger.
I think that is where I am now, the krusty burger of art jobs. I think I kind of dig being way over qualified. Less stress. Less money. More free time.
I will live longer but will be less fulfilled.Life is a compromise for slackers like I am. (just look at all of those smiley's I might be doing alright)