Should I hotwire my Honda Accord LX Wagon

[hondajoe88]

Hi, I have a nice 1997 Honda Accord LX Wagon, 5-speed manual, non-VTEC. I only put about 50 - 100 miles a month on the car so it has lasted a long time.

Recently, my left-rear brake light/turn signal failed. I put bulbs in so I have to troubleshoot things like fuses. And sometimes water has gotten inside my dash and caused similar problems, sometimes making me think I need to replace the turn signal switch, something I've already had to do anyway before (an easy job other than bending down to take the shrouds off which is hard due to my back troubles). By the way, I've had electrical troubles for months since when I turn my fan on, I see a huge dimming of the lights and stuff. Clearly, I have a short in there somewhere.

Well, anyway, yesterday, my ignition did not turn over. Now, I realize I need to make sure I have a good battery, etc.. It is ENTIRELY possible that a loose positive cable may have contributed to a lack of charging and it is ENTIRELY possible that I will simply sub in a new battery, and voila, my car starts. I do hear a first click but no starter rotation at all, and I have not yet checked solenoid/starter motor with a direct jumper from battery, I will do this in short order.

So here's my question, I only have one before I start checking all of my fuses and do all the things my Honda Service manual says to do when the starter fails to turn over. The question is, suppose I wanted to start my car to back it into the garage before I start working on it - is it ok to hotwire my Honda Accord LX? I know we usually go through a 50Amp fuse (perhaps I can even design a nice, fused hot-wire). I'm simply asking does anyone NOT recommend hot-wiring, that's all. I'm not really worried about this problem - I'm sure I will find the culprit and I'm sure I will get rid of the mice living in my car.

It's funny - I'm not sure if the mice are to blame or not. But I now store my food outside my car so I will vacuum up and they will vacate.

But I'm just looking for an opinion before I start replacing stuff and checking continuity. I might like to jumper to the starter, not just to test the starter, but to start the engine and run the car a little. I also have cats, I will check that the connector(s) to the starter are actually not just knocked off - not an impossible fault.

Anyway, I'll start this job slowly today and probably get more into it tomorrow as I'm not really in a hurry to solve the problem. In the next few days is fine with me.

Thanks.

PS I've now pulled the upper shroud off of the turn signal switch - there are 5 screws, only two of which I still had installed so it was pretty easy - they are small phillips. So I will do this backwards - buy a new battery later today, but first pull the turn signal switch out, try to start, then install new switch and see if turn signal works better. Then I will start checking continuity with a voltmeter. My theory is that perhaps the battery really is down. If I'm wrong, then I'll worry about the ignition wiring to the starter. My starter has two connectors, they are under the distributor and extremely greasy so I will probably have to find a spray to see better.

PSS I've now pulled the old switch, tried to start, put the new one in. Each switch gives same behavior so there is no weird short in the turn signal switch. At least I have a newer one in there. So I need to look further. But when I put the headlights on, the clock on the dashboard dims considerably. So I will again do something simple - buy a new batter and see if I can get enough amps to at least start the engine. Perhaps it's just too much short or too little charging and a new batter would get me going. I would love to get the car going at least once before I put it in the garage.

[hondajoe88]

I will start by trouble-shooting the blinking fast on right turn signal but no light blinking in rear despite new bulb.

I'm guessing that this could be a fuse. So I turn the right turn signal on and it blinks in the dashboard but it does NOT blink at the rear. I need to check which fuse - I don't know which one it could be - and I don't know if there is one specifically for the right rear turn signal but there probably is one. Even if I put a new battery in, I would like to fix that fuse first. I just need to find it and test the fuse for being blown. At least this is a place to start before buying a battery.

I should also put a voltmeter on the 50 amp fuse and see if > 9 or 10 volts is there when I turn the key on. If not about 12v, then I have too little battery voltage/power.

[hondajoe88]

Since I haven't yet heard anything, tomorrow I'll just put together a procedure to use from a guy online named Bushougoma at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WwdBEENa7Is and my service manual (after I check the tail-light fuse). I need to check starter trigger wires, cut-relays, the battery, fuses, etc.. Hopefully, isn't something complicated.

There are also some Youtube videos by Scott Kilmer where he demonstrates a tool called the ECT2000. So perhaps I'll look into that tool.

[somick]

I figured out you need help but it is hard to understand what is going on.

If you still need help try to ask one or two questions. Avoid stories about where you store your food, etc.

Good luck,
Sam

[hondajoe88]

Originally Posted by somick

I figured out you need help but it is hard to understand what is going on.

If you still need help try to ask one or two questions. Avoid stories about where you store your food, etc.

Good luck,
Sam

Thanks Sam, I'll avoid the mice issue and I'll just ask one or two each time.

I have a brand new battery now so that should eliminate current/voltage available issues. Since the mice DID damage a wire or two, I will need to ET2000 for shorts at some point. So far, I think I've gotten most shorts out of the system. And I've begun to check fuses/voltages at fuse box. But how about if I start with 1 or 2 questions right away (jumping ahead a little perhaps).

I just went outside and pulled the solenoid wire off. I stuck a voltmeter on the solenoid wire, put the voltmeter on my windshield, went inside the car, depressed the clutch, then turned the key first to on, then further to start. In each of those positions, the meter reads about 10v or so. My meter was not zerod properly so I will take a better meter out before darkness and try to pin down the exact voltage on the solenoid wire. It seems to be the same irregardless of just key on or key trying to start.

We'll get back to the above but I would love to take my remote starter from Autozone, pull the red battery terminal off, connect one alligator to the postive terminal of the battery, and then the other alliigator to the solenoid pin to see if I hear something from the starter. I also realize that I SHOULD hear a fuel pump go on at some point. I may try to find a neighbor to help me because so far I have not been able to listen for a fuel pump.

Sorry for any troubles with the mice and all but it took me 3 hours of cleaning and vacuuming - I work very hard with nature, and I just didn't quite finish my outside storage system, before the mice moved in. Now there is no food in my car so they probably will not come back.

I started checking fuse voltages - I get 12v on either side of the 50A fuse. I need to keep going on the fuses so I probably won't be able to check the fuses until tomorrow. I cannot work at night until I get my car into the garage, hence my desire to start it via a remote starter. I DO realize that there may be a cutoff/clutch/etc.. stuff that needs to be on to start the engine. But if there is a way to start the engine by my remote switch, I would like to at least try so I can move my car into the garage without having to push it. It's hard for me to turn my car around. To be honest, I CAN do it myself, but it's kind of a drag to turn my car 90 degrees to the garage before pushing it back.

Ok, I'll try to keep it more direct in the future.
Thanks for responding.

PS Luckily, I do have a service manual, and the article by Bushuogoma will help a lot and by Scottie Kilmer. They are helping me. I just
need to keep studying which fuses, etc.. At least I am got started on this. I am reading now which fuses to check.

PSS One more thing, I have now zerod my meter so I will have two meters that should read from an ok basline, so that 10v might have been more like 12v or so. I will not be able to do much more until tomorrow. I need to see which fuses to check/replace and check for shorts I guess. Or perhaps try to start it with my remote switch.

[hondajoe88]

Hi again Sam or whoever wants to help, I just wanted to say what I will do first thing tomorrow.

1) Unhook the Black/White wire to the starter. I have already unhooked the solenoid wire which I believe is also called the S-terminal. I will unhook the Black/White wire because I believe this is just a clutch interlock and I don't really care if the clutch is in or out - my car is in neutral. I am not at all worried that the car will go some place. I will then use my Autozone remote starter switch and attempt to actually start the car. I will have the key in the ignition (so I can steer the car) since if the car starts I will drive it a little before putting it away to solve all of these problems. So in other words, my understanding is that I can start the car by applying battery voltage to the S- or Solenoid terminal. I am assuming that I don't need the Black/White wire hooked up since my Honda Service Manual says to unhook it to test, and that pushing my remote switch should "crank" the engine (meaning the engine should turn over - my engine is perfect mechanically as far as I know, no timing belt or crank issues, I'm assuming it is not frozen or otherwise incapacitated). And I'm assuming that somehow the fuel pump will be latched/relayed on, not sure how that will happen.

So in short, I will try to start my car before all of the troubleshooting. By unhooking the black/white wire to the starter, I completely "bypass" (again quoting the manual) the ignition system entirely.

I will then post how that process goes - if successful, then I just have a bunch of wires/fuses/relays and what-not to sort out with multimeters/ET2000's Power Pros or whatever and it might take a while as I will do it slowly since I want to fix each wire/fuse, etc.. as I go along.

Later on.

PS I have two regular cats and one of them I have not seen today so it complicated my day looking for her. She has only done this once before in two years. Hopefully, she'll be back in the morning, then I can relax and only think about my car. I am guessing that the car will be running by 8AM even if the ignition isn't so good.

PS My cat came back so they are all accounted for.

[hondajoe88]

Quick question:

Does anyone know how to get the black/white connector off of the starter? I pulled out on it this morning but it didn't come off. Is there either a clip, bolt, or nut holding it on?

I just went out and bought a new trouble-light so I can see better.

In Bushougoma's video, he first pulls the Solenoid wire, then he shows a boot and a nut that comes off. I will try to see if I have that - I don't know. I may have to disable the system some other way.

I may need to try grounding something to disable it perhaps - I'll study the circuits for that and see if I can do it.

Aha - I believe I might know what is going on for my next attempt. There are 3 terminals on the starter: 1) Solenoid (already off), 2) Clutch interlock (should come off if I pull hard) and 3) the all-important B terminal, that gives power to the starter (other than the power I will supply for the solenoid). I guess I just need to keep trying to get the interlock wire off - only the power wire has a nut on it so I will leave that wire connected.

I believe I just need to crane my neck or use a mirror and find the black/white wire to pull off - presumably there should be some white somewhere that will lead me to where it is.

In the meantime, I will make a list of fuses to check from the service manual. This could start to get things going better.

I now have a list of fuses to check, particularly starting with the Ignition/Interlock fuse which is #9 under-dash. Good place to start.

[hondajoe88]

I now understand the connections better - there is one from the battery which is banjoed (the B bolt) and there is another which is the black/white (control/solenoid) that can be pulled off.

[hondajoe88]

Now that I've pulled most stuff out of the car, I want to check the open circuit voltages on the PGM-FI relay. It's easy to locate the PGM relay on a 1997 Honda Accord LX Wagon. It's just to the left of where the radio sits but back a little under the dash, well to the right of the steering wheel.

I have two choices when I get to it. Pry the circuit board out, or simply slide the whole relay off of it's clip. In a 1997 Accord LX, there is no screw or bolt holding it in. The grey box housing the PCB board just has a couple grooves on it that slide over the metal clip attached
to the underside of the dash. But is there some little bump that locks it on? I guess not from pics on ebay.

I would prefer to slide the whole grey box off but I cannot get the box to move either up or down. I wonder do I have to squeeze the box a little? Anyone know if up or down slide is easier or doesn't matter? I just tried for 30 minutes and could not get it out.

I will work on other issues with the wiring until I get an answer or try again some time. I'm working in tight quarters right now.

Probably best to take the connector off and/or pry the circuit board out first. Then squeeze the now empty box and take the box off. This
way it squeezes in a little to free up the tab that one sees on ebay ads that sell this part.

Here are some pics:

[hondajoe88]

I found that it was best to push against the little locking nub that sits in the metal bracket with a thin flat-blade screwdriver, then wiggle the system with upwards pressure. That's how I eventually got it off. I'm not sure if it could be pulled down also.

So I need to take a bolt off the starter cut relay, then begin my fault-finding. I am first diagnosing why the starter solenoid does not get voltage using the Honda Service manual's recommended procedure steps 5 - 7 in the Starter circuit part on page 23-81. I am first checking connectors like the ones to C906, C913 1st but without battery voltage so I will not have relays, hence why I am going to the starter cut relay as the BLK/WHT will go all the way out to the solenoid C130, C109. I've already followed the service manual and/or bushougoma's procedure to test the ignition switch - it checks out fine. I may also need to check things like C251, C268, but I am starting sort of broadly first.

I have pulled most of the connectors off of the under-dash fuse box since I wanted to get at C913 easier, now it's off. So I can't really do much now except check a bunch of continuities. Then I can fix things, and hopefully get some voltages on the relays.

I have left the SRS connector on since I cannot yet get it off. I will have to study it somehow - I know it's a double-lock but I can't figure out how it works - some say it's a knuckle-buster. I don't find any double-lock, only a single there.

I now have a good wrench to pull the starter cut relay next time I go out to the car.

So maybe tomorrow I'll have some info on what's going on.

[hondajoe88]

Sorry, I've been away from this forum for almost all of the 30 or so days I've been repairing the car.

Just an update that I got the car started today and I will be reinstalling the interior in the next few days after some thorough tests as I had to repair a large number of wire harnesses and grounds all over the car.

I will also make some upgrades to stuff inside the car as I go along, and I will add to my original speaker installation thread I started 9 years ago. And some on my custom roof-rack that I designed which is almost finished.

I haven't yet published my custom trailer I made a couple years ago. Nice oak sides on it and a really nice enhanced floor, also of white oak.

Merry Christmas!