93 Lesabre-problem

[conflag98]

First I want to say thank you to everyone that contributes on this forum. The other day my 93 Lesabre wouldn't start and I came right here to find out some ideas, and there were plenty. Here's what happened: When I first got the car, upon starting it ran rough for several seconds then would even out. I also noticed that the cruise didn't work. I had been told the car had an engine swap, and after reading a lot of stuff on here, I traced the problem to off all things a missing vacuum line. I put one on and it solved both problems. Now, for the past several months, when I start the car the SRS light flashes a few times, it runs rough for a few seconds, then evens out and performs flawlessly. The other day I started it, it ran for a second then died. I did this several times with the same result. I managed to get it into the garage and came to this forum. Here's what I have done, all with advice from this forum: I removed the ICM and had it tested, and it checked out OK. The coils seem fine, and the test I saw on here for them is a little out of my league. I WAS able to use a multi-meter though and check both the power and ground on the MAF and they were good. I bought some MAF cleaner, sprayed out the MAF really good, and generally cleaned the outside with a rag, (personal peeve) I DID NOT touch the wires inside with anything but the spray. I of course had cleaned the connectors to the ICM and the MAF, so I put it all back together and it started right up, smooth as can be, much smoother than normal. Like an idiot I did not take not of whether the SRS light was flashing, but as smooth as it was running I figure not. Well, it ran for about a minute, then just died. It started right back up, but ran a shorter run. The next two attempts brought some kind of small blowback so I quit.
While working I had noticed that several of the vacuum lines running across the throttle body were out of line, different colors, and just generally looked like crap, so I bought a bunch of new line and replaced it all. They went to a small black plastic piece (about an inch or so square) that had several lines going to them from both sides, one of them being the one I had found missing when I bought the car. It was bolted to what I assume is the intake, right next to the throttle body and all the linkage. I took this off and the tiny gasket was in about a hundred pieces, so I replaced it and bolted it all back down, cleaning connectors the whole time.
I put it all back together, and it started right up, no SRS light, but with an ever so slight roughness for a couple seconds before it evened out at a GREAT idle. (The car usually idles slightly high upon first start and I let it go down before I put it in gear) I let it run for about 10 minutes, then took it out on the road a little bit and it did great. An hour later, I went to the main road and got it up to 70 or so just to make sure it was going to run. After about 7 miles I felt a stumble or two, and by the time I pulled in to the store it was running pretty rough, then it would even out, then back to rough. It only died once but there is obviously something still going on with it. Driving down the road you can feel an ocassional stumble
Now, I am ignorant of cars. I have learned by doing, and at least I got the dang thing running great for a while anyway.
Thank you all again, and any more ideas would be greatly appreciated.

[HotZ28]

Do you have any codes? Have you checked the Idle Air Control (IAC), or the EGR?

[Tech II]

SRS should have nothing to do with a rough idle.....

Try disconnecting the MAF when it runs bad.....check the vac line to the f/p regulator for fuel.....

Last COMPLETE TUNEUP?

[conflag98]

Thanks to both of you. There are no codes, and I'll try disconnecting the MAF in the morning. I also forgot to mention that I went to the wires bundled under the kick panel. (the black grounds) They were dry and looked OK but I cleaned then to be sure. Can you tell me where both the EGR and the IAC are located? I will try to load a picture of the engine.

[HotZ28]

I assumed when you said the SRS (Air Bag) light was flashing, what you meant to say was, the SES (Service Engine Soon) light. Is this correct? As mentioned, the SRS has nothing to do with engine function. In addition, it appears that the EGR harness was disconnected and sitting on top of the air intake hose. Do you know why this harness was disconnected?



BTW, the EGR is not visable in the pics you posted. If it has one, it should look similar to this:

[conflag98]

My mistake on the SRS light. I got used to calling it that on the car lot lol. It is the inflatable restraint light that flashes. As far as the EGR harness, I mentioned earlier that I had been told the car had an engine swap when I bought it. I posted about this dangling harness awhile back but got no responses, and since the car was running OK at the time I didn't worry about it a lot. There is a plug similar to it that plugs into the MAF (and just about the right length) so I assumed that the donor car had a different MAF setup. As far as an EGR I cannot find one on this engine.

Before I even tried to start the car this am I took off and cleaned the IAC and the TPS. All the very bad looking vacuum lines at the top left of the pic you captioned for me (man thanks for that!) have been replaced with fresh new ones with no kinks or twists. The car started and then died right off. It did this a couple times, so I unhooked the MAF and tried it again. It ran longer, (about 30 seconds rather than two) then died again. It will restart but just keeps dying.
I am no mechanic obviously, but I'm pretty mechanical and this car has kicked my butt, mostly due to my lack of knowledge I guess.
One question I have for sure. In the top left corner of the pic you captioned, there is a silver looking valve that has a vacuum tube running out one side and a fuel line underneath. It is held in with a snap ring. When I take off a small plastic screw on cover on the side of it a little fuel runs out. What is this thing?

I can't thank you enough for the advice you all have given a poor boy.

[HotZ28]

In the top left corner of the pic you captioned, there is a silver looking valve that has a vacuum tube running out one side and a fuel line underneath. It is held in with a snap ring. When I take off a small plastic screw on cover on the side of it a little fuel runs out. What is this thing?

That "thing" is the fuel pressure regulator. Disconnect the vacuum line to see if there is any sign of raw fuel in the hose. Have you tested fuel pressure?? BTW, if the engine was replaced with an earlier L27, it may not have an EGR. The problem with this is, the PCM has provisions to control voltage and feedback from the EGR. With the terminal disconnected, that can not happen. If this the case, you would have any, or all EGR codes (56, 63, 64 or 65) every time you drive it. One more thing, when taking a better look at the engine pic, a bell rang in my head. It appears you have an LN3 engine, rather than an L27. The LN3 was install in 1988-1991 LeSabre. The obvious difference, is an one piece all aluminum UIM/LIM on the LN3. The L27 has a two piece intake, with a plastic UIM. With this being the case, there may more incompatibilities between the PCM/ECM on the two engines than originally thought.

OBD I Code Retrieval and Typical Code List

[conflag98]

You know I haven't noticed any fuel at all in the vacuum hose, just at that nipple with the plastic cover. If this piece is bad obviously it wouldn't deliver the needed fuel? Remember please, you are dealing with an idiot lol. If it is the engine you think it is, (and believe me I have no doubt of that) then is it supposed to have an EGR? Also, why no Service Engine Light? I might investigate if it even has a bulb in it, and if not go hook it up to a machine to see if it has codes, though by your reckoning it should have plenty. One thing remains, however. This car has pretty much run without any starting problems for the last 60,000 miles, and I mean it just doesn't let me down, until now of course. Seems like if it was mixing up signals I would have had trouble all along, but again, I wouldn't know for sure.
Thank you again for your time and patience.

[enslow]

Originally Posted by conflag98

... As far as an EGR I cannot find one on this engine.

Before I even tried to start the car this am I took off and cleaned the IAC and the TPS. ...The car started and then died right off. It did this a couple times, so I unhooked the MAF and tried it again. It ran longer, (about 30 seconds rather than two) then died again. It will restart but just keeps dying....

It should have an EGR, so you may need to investigate this. Maybe you can take a picture of the other side of the engine so we might be able to see what is going on there.

Will it keep running if you keep the gas pedal pressed a little? I'm wondering if you damaged the IAC when you cleaned it, or if it was damaged before.

[HotZ28]

If the Fuel Pressure Regulator is leaking anywhere, you have a problem. In addition, it is possible whoever installed the engine, also changed the ECM/PCM, or at least the prom (if possible, or compatible). This may explain why the engine has performed well in the past. Who knows? BTW, IIRC an LN3 1988-1991 LeSabre engine did not have an EGR.

[conflag98]

No, no matter how much I tried, I cannot keep it running. I was very, very careful when cleaning the components, but that doesn't mean I didn't mess one up. Hre are a lot of pictures of the engine as it sits right now. Sorry about all the tape. Like I said, I'm not really very good and try my best to not make mistakes that would make the problem worse. Thank you all!

[HotZ28]

Thanks for the pics! That appears to be an LN3 engine, which was last installed OEM in a LeSabre in 1991. Check fuel pressure and let us know what you find. Check at Prime (ignition on engine off) and at idle, then burping the engine rpm to 2K.

[HotZ28]

Here is a pic of an 1994 L27. The 1993 L27 was almost identical on the outside, with the exception of the EGR, which changed slightly in appearance. Notice the 2-piece intake with plastic upper. In addition, you can see the EGR in plain sight.

[HotZ28]

I noticed in this pic, you appear to have leaking injector O-rings.

[HotZ28]

And in this pic, you have an LIM gasket, or valve cover leak. Are there two valve cover gaskets in the front? If so, this will not work. You may also have gas leaking down the LIM onto the head & trans. Very dangerous!