Alignment Issue ? ! ? !

[nicks84]

So I got new tires today. And not suprisingly, Discount tires fuked up the job. Well , not bad, but I wasnt happy about it. I was pressed for time. I got 2 new tires today, for the front. Being that I have a front wheel drive, and the rear tires are about flawless (litereally). I requested a rotation, and the new tires on the rear, for preservation. Why, becuase I have an alighment issue. Or, the wear on the front tires indicated so. It had only been present in the past 3 mo, and seemed to be slight.

Moving on. When I left, the car was making 2 diffreent distinct noises. One was Definately metal on metal, the other seemes to be road noise of sort. So, quicky, before my wheel fell off, I turned around and took it to him. I explained the 2 noises, what I thought it might be, and that the road noise can only be heard above 25 mph. He pursues to tell me he can hear it in the parking lot. He agrees, horrible noise. Put it on the lift, and sure enough, the bent my dust plate behind the rotor, to the point where it was grinding.

So they bent if back in place (classy, but what else were they supposed to do), and it worked and no longer made the noise. Well, the other noise, was still present. So I took em for a drive. He says,"oh, that noise is natural, it happens when you rotate tires, it might do that for 200 - 500 miles. If after that time, its still doin it, bring it back ". My mouth almost hit the floor. NOTHING against the mal informed, it happens, but I know my way aroudn cars a little bit, and I have never heard of this.

Here's the thing. I have a slight alighment problem, well, maybe more than slight, but in the past 3 mo, it seemed to get more sever, hence the new tires in the front. I was wondering , that before, when the old tires were on, it wasnt making any noise, but they were operation under a certain wear pattern. Well, upon relpacing them with tires without the "Custom" wear patterns, can the new ones make noise and vibrate a little bit ? It does pull the right, but dont seem severe enough to make that noise . This will be a first for me.

One time I did change my entire front end(on a diff vehicle), and even though I marked and measured everything for reference, it was so far out of alignment, I couldnt even drive straight, due to competion in direction. But, it made no noise. My current car is nowhere near as out of alighment, yet it makes noise, can this be alighment related ?

[CapriRacer]

If you have an alignment issue, that could generate irregular wear in your tires. That can manifest itself as a vibration - and there are 2 ways you can sense a vibration: Hear it or feel it and the difference depends on the frequency. You may not be able to see the wear pattern that is generating the vibration, but it is there.

I would suggest you try rotating your tires and see if it changes. That way you'll know if it is the tires or not.

It is a little unclear where the new tires are now. Part of the story seems to say they are on the rear. If that is the case, you should be aware that even on a FWD, the rear tires can generate irregular wear due to misalignment - albeit much more slowly.

[nicks84]

Originally Posted by CapriRacer

If you have an alignment issue, that could generate irregular wear in your tires. That can manifest itself as a vibration - and there are 2 ways you can sense a vibration: Hear it or feel it and the difference depends on the frequency. You may not be able to see the wear pattern that is generating the vibration, but it is there.

I would suggest you try rotating your tires and see if it changes. That way you'll know if it is the tires or not.

It is a little unclear where the new tires are now. Part of the story seems to say they are on the rear. If that is the case, you should be aware that even on a FWD, the rear tires can generate irregular wear due to misalignment - albeit much more slowly.

The original tires on front, with the wear, were replaced. When they were replaced, I requested to put the back tires, on the front, and the new ones on the back. I had this done for 2 reasons. One, the back tires are flawless, and I did not want to ruin my new tires, though I will get it alighned tomorrow more than likely. Everyone seems to be closed due to the holidays.

I will have them rotate the tires just to see if it makes a difference. And really, I understand wear patterns, and the rate they wear vs the front. But the back tires (now on the front), have no indication of wear. Though, I do realize what you are saying. And, for the noise/slight shake, I can feel and hear it (road noise). But the noise Im talking about hearing, is not just road noise. Its more seems like ummmm. . .. .. the noise a stressed sway bar might make, or a garmet, or any little rubber piece that supports suspension or something. Not constant, it def has a reapeating freq, that starts about 20 or so, and I have not taken the car past 55 mph since. I drove it straight home, and have not driven it since.

Oh, and thanks a million for addressing my questions, Its driving me crazy. But aside from general road noise and vibrations felt from alighment, or worn out sterring & supension. This noise Im hearing sounds like its stressing the supension components. Exactly with ones, I dont know. See, I have a toe out problem, therfore slight disturbances cause the wheel pair to assume rolling directions that do describe a turn. Seeing as the tires are competing, any steering off it axis beyond the perfectly centered position, will cause the inner wheel to steer in a tighter turn radius than the outer wheel. Thus, the car will always be trying to enter a turn, rather than maintaining a straight line of travel. But at its max, assuming the stess in directional variance is not linear, can it be severe enough to make suspension noises ? If IM not making any sense, please let me know.

[CapriRacer]

You should be aware that a tire can develop irregular wear due to misalignment. I'm not talking about a difference between one shoulder and the other - I'm talking about around the circumference. The irregularity may not be apparent to the eye nor touch, but it will be enough to cause a vibration or noise. This is quite common on the rear tires of a FWD.

[nicks84]

I had the car alighned for personal comfort, and also to narrow down the alighnment issue. They said the front was off spec by 1/10 degree, the back was fine. He told me he feels they might have bent my rim somehow. I think maybe he coudl have hit something and put a dense spot in the rim? Seems like something that would be easy to notice with a lift, and they did have one.
And personally, the issue feels balance related to me. Not so much in feeling, but in sound. Perhaps the rim might be damaged, or a weight fell off ? Its not shaking though, jut making noise.

I will take it back to Discount Tire, and have them rotate the tires to the back, and if the noise follows, ist definately the rim, if not, then I dunno what they did to my car. Perhaps we will find out tomorrow

[CapriRacer]

"Out of round" tires are going to feel exactly like an out of balance problem, due to the way suspensions react to input.

And irregular wear - even though the tire may be 100% in balance - will react like an out of round tire.

[nicks84]

Originally Posted by CapriRacer

"Out of round" tires are going to feel exactly like an out of balance problem, due to the way suspensions react to input.

And irregular wear - even though the tire may be 100% in balance - will react like an out of round tire.

IF that could be the case, why would'nt it make noise when it was on the back ? And is there anything that can be done to solve the issue ?

[CapriRacer]

Tire noise can get amplified (and damped, too!) by the body structure and the suspension. This is quite pronounced in vans, where rear tires can reverberate through the panels.

So to have a tire not make noise in one position, but make noise in another is more a case of transmissibility and perception - sometimes facing towards the noise makes it more apparrent.

Solve this issue?

First get an alignment to prevent the problem from getting worse and to prevent the problem on the new tires

AND

Wait until a new wear pattern has been worn into the noisy tires. Be aware that if the situation is bad enough, the problem might never go away.

[nicks84]

Originally Posted by CapriRacer

Tire noise can get amplified (and damped, too!) by the body structure and the suspension. This is quite pronounced in vans, where rear tires can reverberate through the panels.

So to have a tire not make noise in one position, but make noise in another is more a case of transmissibility and perception - sometimes facing towards the noise makes it more apparrent.

Solve this issue?

First get an alignment to prevent the problem from getting worse and to prevent the problem on the new tires

AND

Wait until a new wear pattern has been worn into the noisy tires. Be aware that if the situation is bad enough, the problem might never go away.

I just had the car alightned yesterday. The guy said the front was off spec by 1/10 degree, and that the back was fine. The newest tires are currently on the back, and the old (still new) tires from the back were placed on the front. So, if the alighment was fine on the back, and the tires were placed on the front, woudl there even be a signature wear pattern on the tire >?

[CapriRacer]

Originally Posted by nicks84

.....The guy said the front was off spec by 1/10 degree, and that the back was fine.........

There are a minimum of 3 dimensions to an alignment - toe, camber, caster, and 0.1 degrees isn't very much (except for toe), so I suspect there is much more to this.

My experience is that alignment tolerances as published by vehicle manufacturers are generally too wide by half.

So if the alignment guy says the alignment is OK, I suspect he means "in tolerance" and that just plain isn't good enough.

Originally Posted by nicks84

.........So, if the alighment was fine on the back, and the tires were placed on the front, woudl there even be a signature wear pattern on the tire >?

As I expalined above, we really don't know if it was OK or not. But you should be aware that a "signature wear pattern" might be there enough to cause a noise, but not there enough to be seen or felt by hand.

[nicks84]

Originally Posted by CapriRacer

There are a minimum of 3 dimensions to an alignment - toe, camber, caster, and 0.1 degrees isn't very much (except for toe), so I suspect there is much more to this.

My experience is that alignment tolerances as published by vehicle manufacturers are generally too wide by half.

So if the alignment guy says the alignment is OK, I suspect he means "in tolerance" and that just plain isn't good enough.


As I expalined above, we really don't know if it was OK or not. But you should be aware that a "signature wear pattern" might be there enough to cause a noise, but not there enough to be seen or felt by hand.

Ya, I know. Before the car was alighned, the guy at the counter told me there is not caster adjustment on that vehicle I know afterwards, the guy who did alighn the car, said everything was fine. the .1 did pertain to the Toe, and I agree with the loose specs (lol). Apparantely, whether good or bad, the back did have a signature wear patters not noticible to the human touch or vison. I had the tires put back to the original place (back), and no noise. So, I guess now that I know they did not mess up my car, I can rest easier. And can have the tires re-rotated, and hope the noise goes away after a few hundred miles. They (Discount) were talking more like 500 or so. But anyways, thanks a million for the help. I do appreciate it. +1000