Understeer!!!

[natcc99]

With cars that experiences understeer, what can one do to balance that condition?!?!?!?!

tighten the front end or tighten the back end?!??!


Now opened for discussion...let's hear that you have to say

[Dezoris]

Cars that have inherent oversteer, need to have a few things assesed.

A big cause for it is, having a suspension that has been lowered, ore modified.

Why, alignments not suited for the drop.
Rear end too stiff.
Too large of a rear sway bar
Worn rear tires.
Uneven braking (Big problem with Civics without 4 wheel disc and antilock)

The braking almost always spins me in turing conditions, dangerously, sometimes.

If you have adjustable suspension then another cause can be not having the car corner weighted, meaning the weight distribution on each tire is different, so when you turn one side, L/R/F/R is getting more weight and that side tends to break loose more frequently, even on a stock suspension this is an issue but un-fixable.

So how do you fix it? The biggest thing would be to get a coilover, height adjustable suspension, with rebound and compression control.
All you need is height adjustabilty to corner weigh the car which will fix those under or oversteer tendencies. Adding to that stiffening the front and loosening the rear, eliminates oversteer along with a larger front anti-sway bar, and the reverse is true for adding oversteer.

Many variables, on a stock suspension, it is almost always, weight distribution, tires, and braking.

[natcc99]

hello

thanks for the insight

Yes, I actually do have adjustable height suspension.
I totally forgot about the height adjust on each tire. You are correct that there is a possible concern for each corner being at a different height.
Even though it's very little, it probably helps out in the handling performance under extreme conditions.

All of my tires are very worn down. That could be my key answer. I am refering to my stock tires and my aftermarket tires/rims. I need to get new rubber.....and if any of you remember, I have been saying that for the LONGEST TIME

I do not believe my rear is too stiff.
The reason for saying this is because I have NO rear sway bar. My car doesn't come with one from the factory.
(if I'm correct...only the EX model come with them)

I'm confused by your quote
Adding to that stiffening the front and loosening the rear, eliminates oversteer along with a larger front anti-sway bar, and the reverse is true for adding oversteer.
do you mean oversteer or understeer

[texan]

Yeah, Dezoris got mixed up in his last post. He's dead on with everything he said, except that this thread is about understeer, not oversteer.

First off, what's your suspension setup natcc99? How much have you lowered the car, and are your shocks adjustable? What tire pressures do you run front and rear, and what are the alignment specs? Especially camber and toe, those are the most important.

You should definitely try to find a modestly sized rear sway bar, it will make a huge difference in overall handling balance. What you want to do in order to balance out the car, aside from possibly changing alignment settings (to be talked about when you get back to us on that), is either stiffen the rear suspension or soften the front. This will cause more weight to be transferred to the outside rear tire of the car, which in turn will cause less total traction at that end and balance the car's understeering tendencies. Hope this helps, peace.

[Dezoris]

Originally posted by texan
Yeah, Dezoris got mixed up in his last post. He's dead on with everything he said, except that this thread is about understeer, not oversteer.

man, i just started hooked on phonics too

[LsvtecHatch]

Originally posted by Dezoris


man, i just started hooked on phonics too

Hooked on Phonics Worked for me!

[Dezoris]

Originally posted by natcc99
hello

thanks for the insight

Yes, I actually do have adjustable height suspension.
I totally forgot about the height adjust on each tire. You are correct that there is a possible concern for each corner being at a different height.
Even though it's very little, it probably helps out in the handling performance under extreme conditions.

All of my tires are very worn down. That could be my key answer. I am refering to my stock tires and my aftermarket tires/rims. I need to get new rubber.....and if any of you remember, I have been saying that for the LONGEST TIME

I do not believe my rear is too stiff.
The reason for saying this is because I have NO rear sway bar. My car doesn't come with one from the factory.
(if I'm correct...only the EX model come with them)

I'm confused by your quote
Adding to that stiffening the front and loosening the rear, eliminates oversteer along with a larger front anti-sway bar, and the reverse is true for adding oversteer.
do you mean oversteer or understeer

sorry, yes adding a larger front bar promotes understeer, adding a rear bar promotes oversteer. There is a balance to be found and you are not going to find it by adding bars.

It is not the height difference in the suspension it is the weight distribution. When you hav ethe car corner weighted, all 4 corners may be a diffrent height.
It is like jacking up one side of your car, what happens?
The other side bears the weight. this is the idea, while using scales the balance the weight of each tire.

And yes Texan is right, alignments are one of the most blown off thing, as well as tire pressure and tires, it is all about how your tire is making contact with the ground.

Many times a culprit of odd sliding or loss of stability is when your toe is off even a little can throw off high speed stabilty, by having each tire going it opposite directions \ / or / \ or | \ yes that is extreme but it only takes a slight angle, to mess you up. What tires do you use? and what are the pressures. Something fun I have noticed switching tires is, going from the Toyo Proxes, which did not grip no matter waht pressure you had them at, or alignment settings, to the S03s that griped all the time, and did not roll when you turned, very direct feeling, to the Yokohama Avid H4s with a higher profile is that when you have a higher profile or even low tire pressures, you feel that flex in the tire, comming out of a turn hard, feels like a rubber band snapping back at you to reset.
Soft sidewalls, lower tire pressures equal rolling the sidewalls.
SO I upped the pressure a bit. Helped in the grip dept. But there is still that roll, and this roll is a what causes all of my understeer on my car right now. wow I am babling

[natcc99]

Hello

Here is my suspension set up.

Sprint lowering Springs
Bec tech adjustable height Struts (the car sits about 1.75 inch lowered than stock)
Front tower bar
Rear tower bar
Yokohama tires sitting on 15 inch rims (worn tires!!!!!!!!!)

Front camber -1.3 degree
Front toe +0.03

Rear camber -0.7 degree
Rear toe +0.04



I really think my problem is my worn out tires. I'm sure adding stiffness to the rear will help, but probably the biggest concern are the tires. They're old.

[Dezoris]

Depending on your max pressure and easy way to tell if the tires are the culprit is by raising cold inflation pressures 2-5 psi lower than your max pressure in the front keeping your rear the same.

This will be able to tell you alittle bit about the condition of your tires.
How do they react? slide roll, still understeer?
Tires are the foundation, no matter if you have an F1 if your tires are shot it will handle like like ass.

Start there, what is the tread depth?

[natcc99]

Originally posted by Dezoris


Start there, what is the tread depth?

treads????? what treads?!?!?!
I'm sure if a cop ever pulled me over, I would get a ticket for unsafe tires.

Actually, they are not that bad.
I only have treads on the outer edges. These are used tires and they were only in fair condition when I got them.
However, because I had too much pressure, the inner treads are worn out.
There's a long story why they're like that...
Yeah, I know...these tires are shot and ready to be recycled.

As of now, I'm rolling on my stock tires

THANKS for all the help

[SilverY2KCivic]

Texan mentioned adding a modest sized sway bar. A rear sway bar is at the TOP of my modding priority list right now, and has been for a while. Right now I'm settled on adding the 13mm (yeah, small I know) '99-'00 Si rear sway bar to my '00 Civic DX coupe. It has the end link holes in the LCAs for the bar, so all I need is the center brace for the bar and end links, and I'm set. I have an entire dealership parts guide/list for the sway bar from an Si. Anyways, I opted for this bar because I can't afford a better one at the moment, a friend is offering to sell me one from a friend of his, Si for $45, and the Si one should be sufficient enough for me I feel, for right now at least, seeing how a small sway is better than no sway, right? So is the 13mm rear Si sway bar, TOO small of a size, or would it work for me? If I got a non OEM bar for my car, I'd either go for a Skunk2, or the AddCo bar that Summit Racing sells in their catalog, and on their site. But with my current budget and income at the moment, I'd really have to budget for that one... =\

[natcc99]

best of luck to you!!!
hope it works out.

and if it's not enough...start saving up some cash

[Dezoris]

Originally posted by SilverY2KCivic
Texan mentioned adding a modest sized sway bar. A rear sway bar is at the TOP of my modding priority list right now, and has been for a while. Right now I'm settled on adding the 13mm (yeah, small I know) '99-'00 Si rear sway bar to my '00 Civic DX coupe. It has the end link holes in the LCAs for the bar, so all I need is the center brace for the bar and end links, and I'm set. I have an entire dealership parts guide/list for the sway bar from an Si. Anyways, I opted for this bar because I can't afford a better one at the moment, a friend is offering to sell me one from a friend of his, Si for $45, and the Si one should be sufficient enough for me I feel, for right now at least, seeing how a small sway is better than no sway, right? So is the 13mm rear Si sway bar, TOO small of a size, or would it work for me? If I got a non OEM bar for my car, I'd either go for a Skunk2, or the AddCo bar that Summit Racing sells in their catalog, and on their site. But with my current budget and income at the moment, I'd really have to budget for that one... =\

Actually the Si bar is a perfect combo with the stock front bar, they designed it well. You can't beat it.
Don't buy anything else, that is a smart move.

[Racing Rice]

Originally posted by Dezoris


Don't buy anything else, that is a smart move.

I agree youll probably love it compared to stock, the bar is small enough so that you will still have understeer, but not near as much. Itll make the car feel a little more predictable, Ill probably be wishing I did the same thing pretty soon. We'll see. You probably wont have to worry about subframe tear out with a smaller bar like that either.

[SilverY2KCivic]

DX's are barless, front and back, so I'd only have the rear sway for now once I get it soon here.

Just out of curiosity, what is subframe tearout?