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12-18-2011, 02:40 PM | #61 | |
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Re: Definition of big block vs. small block
I believe I have something to add to this thread from a historical perspective. I am also a big car enthusiast (I own a 1974 Buick Estate, a 1959 Lincoln Continental coupe and a 1966 Imperial convertible) and so believe I know a big block when I see one. Big cars need big blocks because of the torque potential they offer.
The distinction between big and small block is perhaps most important to Chevrolet enthusiasts. Chevrolet of course added a second block size in 1958 with the introduction of the W-series. Perhaps a metric for block size is in order. May I suggest bore spacing? It is the one dimension that is never changed in an engine series no matter what the other modifications are. It is a good indicator of CID potential. For example both the W and Mark series Chevrolet big blocks have a bore spacing of 4.84" and the Chevrolet small block has a bore spacing of 4.4". Chevrolet was not the first manufacturer to introduce multiple block sizes however. In 1952 Ford added the Lincoln Y-Block (4.63") to the Flathead (3.8") and Chrysler added a Desoto Hemi (4.3125") to its Chrysler Hemi (4.5625"). Chrysler added a separate Dodge (4.1875") and Plymouth (4.46") V-8 engine series in 1953 and 1956 respectively. Thus from 1956-57 Chrysler had four different block sizes. By 1959 they pared this down to two different block sizes: the A/LA series (4.46") and the B/RB series (4.8"). They would continue to offer two different block sizes through 1979. When Mopar fans refer to big versus small block this is what they are usually talking about. Ford replaced the venerable Flathead with a Ford Y-Block (4.38") in 1954. In 1958 they replaced the Lincoln Y-Block with the much larger MEL (4.9") and the Ford FE-series (4.63") was also introduced. Ford would continue to offer three basic block sizes through 1976 with the Ford 335-series taking the place of the Y-Block after a three year overlap (1962-64) and with the MEL replaced by the 385-series (4.9") in 1968. Thus talking about a big versus small block Ford is something of a misnomer as there were actually three different block sizes from 1958 through 1976. Buick had only one block size, the Nailhead (4.75"), until the introduction of its small block in 1961 (4.24"). This engine was used on other makes, in particular Oldsmobile and Pontiac. Buick would continue to make two different block sizes through 1976 with the Nailhead being replaced by the "Big-Block" (4.75") in 1968. Cadillac, Oldsmobile and Pontiac only ever offered one V-8 block size during this period. Cadillac increased its bore spacing from 4.5625" to 5.0" in 1968. Oldsmobile replaced its original Rocket V-8 with a new series in 1965 but both have the same 4.625" bore spacing. Pontiac's V-8 has a bore spacing of 4.62". As previously noted in this thread Pontiac enthusiasts are quite anal about the fact that there is only one Pontiac block size. On the other hand Oldsmobile fans are notoriously inconsistent and on this score and perhaps 67RocketPower is evidence of this. And last but not least there are the independents. AMC's V-8 has a respectable bore spacing of 4.75" and Packard has a monumental bore spacing of 5.15". The Packard V-8 was supposedly going to be bored out to a 440 CID in 1959 but Packard went under before that could happen. The engine obviously had a lot of CID potential that was never realized. This is clearly a matter of semantics but if one were to consider a universal standard for all V-8s may I suggest the following? Among manufacturers that had an extended period of offering two basic block sizes (Buick, Chevrolet and Chrysler) the largest small block was the Chrysler A/LA (4.46") and the smallest big block was the Buick Nailhead/Big-Block (4.75"). If one were to establish an arbitrary cutoff it should lie somewhere between these two values, perhaps at 4.6" bore spacing. On the other hand, Ford had an extended period of offering three different block sizes. Perhaps it would be better to classify blocks with bore spacings from 4.47" through 4.74" as midsize blocks. Under this rubric the Lincoln Y-Block, the Ford FE-series, both of Oldsmobiles V-8s, the Pontiac V-8, the early Cadillac OHV V-8 and the early Chrysler Hemi would be classified as midsize blocks. |
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12-24-2011, 09:32 PM | #62 | |
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Re: Definition of big block vs. small block
Ive researched this a little further and Ive decided that this deserves a slight elaboration based on deck height. But first a correction is in order.
The Packard V-8 actually had a bore spacing of 5.00 not 5.15. Ive verified this by reading some Packard engineering bulletins from the period. Deck height is also a relevant measure when talking about block size, particularly when considering Oldsmobile V-8s. Hence 67RocketPower may have a point although he didnt know why. The later series Oldsmobile V-8 came in two distinct deck heights: 9.33 and 10.625. The former of these came in displacements ranging from 260 CID to 403 CID. The latter vary in displacement from 400 CID to 455 CID. Thus Olds enthusiasts can legitimately claim there are two block sizes, but the difference is deck height, not bore spacing. However, the difference between these engines is of course much less than that between the small and large block Chevys (for example). Other engines also came in varying deck heights and this naturally creates a plethora of block sizes. So how can one quantify all of this? Well one possibility is to compute engine block volume. In other words if one takes the square of block spacing by deck height and then multiply this result by eight to account for the number of cylinders. Doing this one gets the following results: Rank Engine CID Bore Sp. Deck Hgt. Block Vol. 1. 68+ Cadillac 472-500 5.00 10.8125 2162.5 CI 2. Packard 320-374 5.00 10.625 2125.0 CI 3. 68+ Cadillac 368-425 5.00 10.56 2112.0 CI 4. Ford MEL 383-462 4.90 10.482 2013.4 CI 5. Ford 385 460 4.90 10.322 1982.6 CI 6. Chrysler RB 383-440 4.80 10.725 1976.8 CI 7. Ford 385 429 4.90 10.29 1976.5 CI 8. Buick BB 400-455 4.75 10.57 1907.9 CI 9. Lincoln Y-Block 317-368 4.63 10.94 1876.2 CI 10. Chrysler B 350-400 4.80 9.98 1839.5 CI 11. Chevrolet W 348-427 4.84 9.80 1836.6 CI 12. Chevrolet Mark 396-454 4.84 9.80 1836.6 CI 13. Oldsmobile BB 400-455 4.625 10.625 1818.2 CI 14. 49-63 Olds 260-403 4.625 10.625 1818.2 CI 15. Chrysler Hemi 392 4.5625 10.87 1810.2 CI 16. Buick Nailhead 401-425 4.75 10.00 1805.0 CI 17. Buick Nailhead 364 4.75 9.75 1759.9 CI 18. Pontiac 287-455 4.62 10.25 1750.2 CI 19. Ford FE 332-428 4.63 10.17 1744.1 CI 20. Chrysler Hemi 301-354 4.5625 10.32 1718.6 CI 21. 64-67 Cadillac 429 4.5625 10.105 1682.8 CI 22. Buick Nailhead 264-322 4.75 9.25 1669.6 CI 23. AMC 304-401 4.75 9.208 1662.0 CI 24. AMC 290-390 4.75 9.175 1656.1 CI 25. Oldsmobile SB 260-403 4.625 9.33 1596.6 CI 26. Ford 335 351-400 4.38 10.297 1580.3 CI 27. Desoto Hemi 330-345 4.3125 10.37 1542.9 CI 28. Chrysler A/LA 277-360 4.46 9.60 1527.7 CI 29. Ford Y-Block 239-312 4.38 9.77 1499.5 CI 30. Hemi-Magnum 392 4.46 9.252 1472.3 CI 31. Buick SB 215-350 4.24 10.187 1465.1 CI 32. Ford 90-Degree 351 4.38 9.50 1458.0 CI 33. Dodge Hemi 315-326 4.1875 10.38 1456.1 CI 34. Desoto Hemi 276-291 4.3125 9.54 1419.4 CI 35. Chevrolet SB 262-400 4.40 9.025 1397.8 CI 36. Dodge Hemi 241-270 4.1875 9.29 1303.2 CI 37. Ford 90-Degree 221-302 4.38 8.206 1259.4 CI 38. Ford Flathead 221-255 3.80 10.4375 1205.7 CI This is hardly comprehensive and it may have some inaccuracies but its a good starting point for a volumetric discussion of block size. I think this if anything makes it clear that talking about deciding what constitutes a small versus a big block is a somewhat arbitrary matter as there is in fact a continuum of block sizes. But given the popular terminology and the engines which were available at those times it would seem a cutoff between a two classification system should be somewhere between 1597 CI and 1759 CI, a range which includes seven engine blocks on this list. |
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12-26-2011, 03:58 PM | #63 | |
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Re: Definition of big block vs. small block
Some corrections, elaborations and additions.
Correction: Engine CID Bore Sp. Deck Hgt. Block Vol. Ford 385 429 4.900 10.30 1978.4 CI Elaborations: The early Olds block came in three different sizes: Engine CID Bore Sp. Deck Hgt. Block Vol. Olds 371-394 4.625 10.625 1818.2 CI 57-58 Olds 371 4.625 10.375 1775.4 CI Olds 303-324 4.625 10.25 1754.0 CI The Buick Small block also came in three different sizes: Engine CID Bore Sp. Deck Hgt. Block Vol. Buick SB 340-350 4.240 10.187 1465.1 CI Buick SB 300 4.240 9.543 1372.5 CI Buick SB 215 4.240 8.96 1288.6 CI The Ford 335 block came in two different sizes: Engine CID Bore Sp. Deck Hgt. Block Vol. Ford 335 351-400 4.380 10.297 1580.3 CI Ford 335 351 4.380 9.200 1412.0 CI Additions: Engine CID Bore Sp. Deck Hgt. Block Vol. Rambler 250-327 4.75 9.994 1803.9 CI Studebaker 224-305 4.50 10.065 1630.5 CI The list should now have 46 blocks and 10 fall in that grey middle area. |
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06-19-2013, 04:52 PM | #64 | |
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Re: Definition of big block vs. small block
Ford has engine families and lends no credence to the BB/SB terminology .
They did however allow this series of tech books. http://m69.photobucket.com/albumview...block.jpg.html |
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01-12-2014, 02:42 PM | #65 | |
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Re: Definition of big block vs. small block
Here is a link to the best big block small block explanation I've ever seen check this out
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LPZu...eature=mh_lolz |
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01-12-2014, 02:49 PM | #66 | |
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Re: Definition of big block vs. small block
The MFG's who designed the blocks are the ones who decided big block and small block or if there were no such animal in their engine line Pontiac for example has neither big or small block distinction it's just a Pontiac It's not bore spacing or any of that It's what the Factory's who designed the engine say it is Big, Small , or neither
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06-14-2015, 09:27 AM | #67 | |
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Re: Definition of big block vs. small block
All Pontiacs are short blocks period. Neither big nor small blocks are apt descriptors.
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06-14-2015, 09:55 AM | #68 | |
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Re: Definition of big block vs. small block
short block refers to a engine without the head(s) not the size
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06-14-2015, 11:29 AM | #69 | |
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Re: Definition of big block vs. small block
If you are saying that any engine minus it's heads is a short block, you are mistaken.
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06-14-2015, 01:35 PM | #70 | |
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Re: Definition of big block vs. small block
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Short_block
argue with them |
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06-14-2015, 02:27 PM | #71 | |
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Re: Definition of big block vs. small block
I spent an hour today correcting Wiki on various topics. If enough people on the net repeats something it apparently becomes fact. This is what has become of the world today. And by the way I was also correcting some of the corrections. I have various resource material from the 70's that says Wiki is wrong. The net is a vast universe of misinformed users on all topics who don't know the difference between two to and too or there their and they're. Yet you're asking me to challenge Wiki and the pool of users that supplies most of the content there. Isn't it ironic the dictionary keeps changing the spelling of words to appease those that can't or don't use it. I foresee in the future many years from now that yes you will be right, a big block chevy without it's heads is indeed a short block. LOL
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06-14-2015, 04:35 PM | #72 | |
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Re: Definition of big block vs. small block
You are incorrect. It sounds more like you are confused. It sounds like you are confusing deck height as being part of the "short block" definition.
The term short block refers to ANY engine. It usually refers to the bottom end with rotating assembly. Long block usually refers to the short block plus heads and sometimes include intake manifold. You can buy a short block for a BB 396. Hell look at Summit Racing. They sell short blocks for several engine sizes, both BB and SB. EDIT: http://www.summitracing.com/parts/mll-bp4960/overview/ That link right there shows a 396 big block bottom end being called a short block by one of the largest racing parts companies in the world.
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06-14-2015, 06:22 PM | #73 |
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Re: Definition of big block vs. small block
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09-07-2015, 11:33 PM | #74 | |
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Re: Definition of big block vs. small block
The term small block or big block may not have much meaning now but For Ford it started way back in 1952! Ford built two new Engines known as the Y blocks! The first was the Lincoln Y Block it had a 10.7 inch deck high and a 4.63 bore spacing it Was a big blocki A Ford car
Y block made it had a 9.7 deck and a 4.38 bore spacing and was a small block If you look at the specs the Lincoln y block has the same bore spacing as the all ford FE engines from 332 to 428 at 4.63! The Ford y block has the same bore spacing as all ford small blocks from the 221 to the 400 at 4.381 the reason for these dimensions were to fit these engines into the small cars built in the early 1960's the y block was down sized to 8.2 deck to make the engine small enough to fit into the 1962 Falcon! The small block ford dimensions were increased to 9.5 to build the 351 then shortened to 9.2 for the Cleveland then increased to 10.3 for the 4001 although the deck increased fords small block engines all had the 4.38 bore spacing as the original Y block engine! A Chevy small block.has a 4.40 bore spacing a big block Chevy has a 4.84 bore spacing! A Pontiac engine has a bore spacing the ids the same as the Ford FE that makes it a big block! Dodge small block has a bore spacing of 4.46 and there big block is 4.80! To get big power Big block engines were needed! To fit into the small tight chassis of the mid 1960's all the manufactures needed to have a small engine or be stuck with a 6 cylinder engine! |
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09-08-2015, 06:10 PM | #75 | |
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Re: Definition of big block vs. small block
And your name implies you put a stroker crank into a 302 Windsor small block, and converted it into a -------big smallblock!
BTW, if you still have it, what is the buildup? |
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