My Silhouette nightmare

[RocketUSA]

So here's my story about my 1999 Silhouette. It's got 126K on it, I bought it with 79K on it five years ago. I from a user standpoint, I love the van. I love the way it drives, love the size, love the looks. However, looks aside, the van has had lots & lots of problems. I probably should have seen the signs before this, but here's what happened. I'm not really looking for help, as I'm pretty much beyond that. I've used as much professional help as I think it prudent. Now I'm hoping a meteor will drop from space and smash it so I can at least collect insurance on it. Anyway, on with the story

About 6 weeks ago now, I was driving my van about 850 miles away from home, and it just started making a ticking noise while going down the freeway. Being a good amateur mechanic, my first thought was, "Dang, that's not good!" I took it to a dealer service center, who proceeded to pull the valve covers to inspect the rockers. After spending $212 in labor, they came up with the diagnosis of, "Your engine is shot." Needless to say, it was disappointing. Here's what they found:

1. All the rocker assemblies were tight and in place
2. They drew some oil out, and found metal shavings in it
3. Seeing that my lower intake manifold gasket had been recently replaced (local mechanic) they blamed it on him doing a crappy job (oil/water mix) and quoted me $6,218 for a new engine. Given that the car value is about $4,000, I said no way.


All of this for what sounded like a valve/rocker/lifter tick. Although my engine oil never looked anything but perfect, and not really seeing any coolant/oil contamination possibility, I considered that it was possible that it did mix and trash the engine. So, armed with the fact that my hometown guy might have geeked the job (my family's used him for 25 years, so I trust him) I opted to ship the car home for $575 and let him take a look at it.

So, I get it back home, and they listen to it, and they really think that it sounds like bad lifters. He ran the car with the valve covers off, using a feeler gauge to slip between the rockers and pushrods. He explained that if there's any slop there causing the tick, like a bent rod, that should shut it up. It didn't. They tear into the motor, and nothing, I mean nothing, looks broken or excessively worn in the rocker arms, push rods, or lifters. Given that originally they thought it was the lifters, we elect to put new lifters in and cross our fingers. He puts them in, the same noise exists, maybe even worse. It is not present when cold, but as the engine heats up it starts that infernal ticking.

For further reference, I did have an external coolant leak from the lower intake manifold. The oil was never, at any time, brown or muddy, or otherwise tainted with coolant. There was never any goofy residue inside the oil filler cap either. Now he's thinking it's cam-related.

At this point, I'm ready to drive my van off a cliff. I'm driving it in town only now, wondering what to do next. Going after the cam would be $2500, but so many things have broken or messed up on this van that I'm ready to just throw in the towel.

[merc81]

I have seen/heard my van do the same thing. I have three of them, all have same sort of problems--I still love the vans.
Two of my three developed what proved to be bad cam bearings around 140K miles. They made the ticking noise, I investigated as you did -although I didn't replace any lifters- and both ended up snapping the cams in two due to seized bearings. I installed rebuilt engines in both vans that cost me about $1900 each.

You might want to look into oil additives, I don't know. Not sure that you can do anything to prevent the cam from busting sooner or later. The guy at the engine place told me almost every engine he gets back for core has a bad cam.

I don't believe the problem to have been my fault when doing the lim gasket repair, not two times in a row. I think the cam bearings in the block just don't last and 150K is about average for them. You could just drive the van -in town only- until it happens & then do the repair. I'd just plan now for the new engine and be ready when its time is up.
fyi, the rebuilts I purchased came with a 5 year/100K mile warranty which is better than anything I could get with another van or a gm repair.
I 'm able to take the vans out for long trips without worry now.

[RocketUSA]

How did you accomplish pulling the engine? The book says essentially you lift the van up off the engine. I'm just a regular guy without access to a big lift.

[merc81]

Originally Posted by RocketUSA

How did you accomplish pulling the engine? The book says essentially you lift the van up off the engine. I'm just a regular guy without access to a big lift.

One way to do it is like this:

Of course you need a high ceiling and something to hold the body up:


Here is the access it gives you when fully lifted:

You need to leave the strut bars in place to support the body at the point where the chain hooks to the metal.
I looked this over for quite a while and determined the strongest point on the body is right where the sub frame attaches under the radiatior. The chain is hooked directly above this point.
I'm putting together a web directory that holds all the pix I took when I was doing the work. I have done two vans this way so far.

[RocketUSA]

Unfortunately I don't have a garage anywhere close to that. I'm either going to sell the van off cheap, or I'm going to take it back into the shop and have them do that for me. They've said it will be about a $2500 bill. Either way, I'm selling it. I can't keep pouring money into it.

[merc81]

I completely understand, trust me. I never figured myself for the guy that changed out engines or worked on trannys either. Its a question of necessity--I have no money to buy another car, no money to pay a shop to do this. I happen to have a boat garage I designed to work on the boat in. I can't afford to have that worked on either I also have friends with the same van and the same problem so we just seem to keep doing this work. $2500 for the job if it includes engine is cheaper than I'd ask for. I'd want about $1000 for the effort + engine. Don't forget, all the 'stuff' on the engine doesn't come with it. You need to change everything over. Still, I didn't have the cash so I did it myself.

After I lifted the car, I placed two of the large jack stands under the body as a safety measure. I used a 4x4 between the two jacks and rested the van body down on the beam. Since you won't be lifting the weight of the engine/tranny, you can use this method instead of the come-alongs I used.
Remove the wheels and undo the strut bolts. Remove the exhaust system as one piece from the engine manifold to the tailpipe. You need to do this because the exhaust must be removed from the engine and will then be in the way of a support beam that would lift the body.

With the van all the way down on the ground and the sub frame resting on 4x4s or blocks of some sort (you need to pull the frame out from under the van later), remove the 4 bolts on the frame and use the floor jack on either side under the front doors to lift the body up and away from the engine. If you remove the engine mounts, you need to lift the body up only about 3 feet. It would be good to have two floor jacks, but one uses what can be had...
Of course you need to remove the wire harness and AC too, as well as the tranny lines, but that is all in the book.
The 4x4 beam should be right at the point on the body where the uniweld structure runs out the the sides--just behind the wheel well. The van weight on the beam would be half or less without the engine.

Once out, I'd replace the engine (1900.00) rather than change the cam & bearings.

[RocketUSA]

Well, whether I like it or not, not having a shop available to me to do the work myself is a deal breaker. I'd be all for it otherwise. I even thought about buying a vehicle lift since I've been dreaming of having one forever, but I have no place to install it.

At this point, my mechanic isn't positive that it's the cam, but that's what he's proposing he go after. He had it torn apart and we made a calculated risk on replacing the lifters to no avail, now he's saying engine removal and looking at the cam & such (plus everything else down there). So, he told me if they did that the total bill wouldn't exceed $2,500, including the previous work. Here's how I see it:

My van in working order, Kelly Blue Book: $4,300
Cost of repair: $2,500
Difference: $1,800

Now, if I don't go through with the rest of the repair I'll owe him about $500 for what we've tried so far. That's mostly the cost of the parts. Here's that scenario.

My van sold as is: $2,000?
Cost of repair to this point: $500
Difference: $1,500

It's nearly a break-even endeavor, depending on what I get for the van. That's really the lynch pin of the whole thing, what I can get for an 'as-is' van. If I find a private party do-it-yourselfer, it might be a good deal for him. Also, I might be able to trade it in and throw some Lucas Oil in there to get it to shut-up for a little while.

Like I said, I love the van, but it's just been a money pit. Here's what I've had to deal with:

A/C compressor blew: $600 part; $200 front, $350 back, $125 follow up visit to clear out the rest of the chunks of metal in the system.

Lower intake manifold gasket: $600

Breaking down in San Diego: $975 after shipping the car back and getting rental cars. (Thanks AAA for messing me over on that one, by the way)

Cam? - $2,500

That's like $5,400 on a vehicle that cost me $9,400 originally. I do most of my own auto repair stuff, I just don't tackle A/C, and I usually don't have time for big engine repair on the family workhorse. Thanks GM!

(Can you tell I'm frustrated?)

[merc81]

I do hear you. Not sure what I'd do in your shoes. I know from experience now that the cam will bust, now or later, but it will break. When mine went out, my wife had the kids with her and it just died without warning. I couldn't believe it until I had the cover pans off and saw the back lifters not moving. The 2nd van, my buddies, pretty much went the same way, about 2500 miles after a lim was done to it. The 3rd van is older, but makes the tap noises now. Its parked and for sale. Never had to do the lim on that one.
There is one thing to consider here with the costs. I don't think you can buy a van at any price that gets the mph this one does. On average with the 3 I'm familiar with here, its about 18-20 in town and 26-28 on the road. Nobody sells one that does better even for '09 models.
Also, since you know what the evil is you already own, your ahead of the game. The next van is going to have its own share of issues (read $$costs) only you don't yet know what those will be.

Fyi, when my van died, my other car died the same week. I went 5 days or so with no car at all. Reliability is worth a lot.

[RocketUSA]

Usually I keep my cars. For example, I bought my Ford Escort new in 1994 and still have it. Better to go with a known evil rather than an unknown. I suppose all I really have left to worry about for big ticket items on the van is the transmission.

If it is the just the cam, should I have him just replace it? Why did you go with the rebuilt engine?

[merc81]

I put a rebuilt engine in both vans because you can't just change out the cam. Yours is not yet broken, but it doesn't fail from age alone--the bearings wear out on the cam in the rear of the block.
When you change the cam out, you need to replace the cam bearings--something that really can't be done while the crank is still installed. I could find no experienced engine mechanics that would do that job for me and leave the engine untouched oherwise. They all told me that at 100K+ miles I would be foolish not to rebuild the engine once it was torn down to that level.
The engine must be removed to pull the cam, the heads are off, its all torn down anyway. . . I have rebuilt several engines in the past and I just am tired of fooling with that level of detail. I always have to take the block to a shop anyway to have it checked for wear and likely line-bored before installing new rings or rings + pistons and bearings. I just didn't want to fool with that anymore.

The new engine cost is $1880 + $350 core charge including shipping. The warrently is 100K miles & 5 years. I'm all set with that. It took me one weekend to make the change and I was able to do the struts at the same time while the engine was out.
My olds now has 2500 miles on it and its purring along great. The chevy venture has only about 750 on it yet, but we don't expect any problems. The confidence I feel at having a new (rebuilt) engine in the van can't be matched even if I'd purchased a used car instead.

[Cressidaadr]

I think one reason these cam bearings are going is due to coolant mixing with the engine oil from lower intake manifold problems.

Don't tell me the oil looked fine or that I had the LIM gasket replaced, etc. I have a van now that is getting anti-freeze in the oil but you would never suspect it but the oil analysis that I have done tells the story.

The LIM has been changed out twice on this one. However, a few months back had the oil tested and the lab is calling saying get the #%$& (oil) changed out now!

I change the oil and had it tested again after only 500 miles. The lab called again this week saying get the #$&% (oil) changed out now!

So I will try the LIM gasket one last time - this time doing it myself with the FelPro dry kit and switching to G05 coolant. We will have to wait a few months to see if I can get it corrected.

Anyway all of this antifreeze is ruining the cam bearings and most owners look and feel the oil and believe it is OK but it is loaded with antifreeze - it really doesn't take that much antifreeze to load the oil.

[RocketUSA]

Did you change to the green coolant, or stick with the orange?

[merc81]

Originally Posted by RocketUSA

Did you change to the green coolant, or stick with the orange?

Good question. I'd like to know what others have done with that also. For my part, I went with the green coolant. I read that the orange has a better ph balance, or doesn't cause the water pump seals to wear out as fast, whatever. I'll change the water pump every year with pleasure if that's the tradeoff.
I did have some trouble with the water level sensor after all the repairs, but that may have been oil in the coolant that fouled it. I replaced the sensor (ouch $50 bucks ) and the new one works fine with the green coolant.

[iceman2]

I'm putting together a web directory that holds all the pix I took when I was doing the work. I have done two vans this way so far.[/quote]

Merc, did you ever build this web directory? I'd love to see your photos!

[merc81]

I admit to being lazy. I've been sidetracked on all sorts of stuff since I did these jobs in fall '08. Here is the web directory that contains ALL the photos and even a couple videos. Warning, I'm blind as a bat and can't see those darned screens on lcd camers so more than a few of the photos are awful. This is just a memory dump from the camera, but here is where you can browse the photos yourself:

http://cemrweb.cemr.wvu.edu/~mathews/venture/