1987 Thunderbird with a dead short?

[1trouble47@cox.net]

My car was wrecked in 2005. It was just discovered that the steering column is held in place by baling wire. I just recently lost my digital speedometer, gauges, turn signals, speed control for air and heat and rear window defroster. All of these items are on one fuse according to the diagram in the glove box. Is it possible that the baling wire cut into the wire to this fuse and is causing a dead short draining my battery while sitting as well as having lost all these things?

[97Bird]

Welcome to the forum 1trouble47. It's possible it could have shorted out a wire in the harness and blown the fuse. The fuse is blown, right? Not knowing where the baling wire is in relation to the fuse (before or after the fuse) I will say that if it is after the fuse and the fuse blows then you wouldn't have a current path to discharge the battery. If it cut into a wire leading to a fuse then you would smell burnt rubber and have a mess with burnt insulation on the one wire that actually shorted and probably melted insulation on any wire in the harness that was next to the shorted wire. You will have to carefully check every wire that is contacting or very near the baling wire to see if the insulation is chafed and worn through. Have your battery charged and tested to be sure it is alright. With the battery charged and tested, install an ammeter in series with the positive cable and battery to see how much current is being drawn with the key off. The clock and radio will draw a small amount of current all of the time (milliamps). Start removing fuses until the current drops and you will know what circuit to check. A trunk, engine compartment or glove box light that stays on can kill the battery so check these possibilities.

[1trouble47@cox.net]

Thank you 97Bird for your prompt help.

My son is going to take a gander at the whole mess this Friday and I'm taking your answer with me when I go.

He is an ASE Certified mechanic, but wiring is not his specialty so . . . . . what you sent me will help very much.

I'll keep you posted.

Oh, the fuse wasn't blown, so . . . . . .

Linda

[97Bird]

Did you start having problems with the battery going dead after the problems with the dash occured? The two problems could be related or not. If a diode shorts in the regulator then that would cause a drain on the battery so your son might want to remove the alternator and have it checked at the same time as the battery. Have him check to be sure there is power on both sides of the fuse. If you can have him get a wiring diagram and email it to me,I can be more specific on what and where to check. Have him check the dash connector to be sure it has a good connection. You can get wiring diagrams from the Mitchell Manual at your local library. Ask for the 1987 manual. Scan the pages and send them to me.

[1trouble47@cox.net]

Thank you for getting back to me. I'll be going over to my son's in about an hour and now I can take both of your replies to him.

Yes, the battery went dead after I lost all of those things on the same fuse.

I've already had the alternator tested (nothing wrong with it) but insisted that they replace it anyway since it's warranteed until 2010. Young man wasn't very happy about it, but did it anyway. Both alternators tested the same results, the one I returned and the new one that they replaced it with.

I'll have him read your replies and check everything that you're suggesting.

I really appreciate the time you are putting into helping me with this. I can't afford a new car and besides, I LOVE my Thunderchicken

Linda

[1trouble47@cox.net]

I'm back again.

My son is here now and checked out the baling wire under the dash. He said that it's not remotely near anything to be shorting it out. It was basically used to hold the steering wheel in place because of bolts not lining up after my daughter wrecked the car, hitting the steering wheel so hard that it bent it out of whack.

All the fuses have been checked and they are all good. Don't know yet if he's checked the other side to make sure power is getting to all of them.

He says it's totally a charging problem at this point.

If the battery is never being charged, could that cause the speedometer and other things to just not work?

He asked me to ask you if you knew if my year Thunderbird has an external regulator in addition to the one built into the alternator. He found a little "sardine" shaped silver box on the firewall that he believes is an external regulator. (I need him up here to tell me exactly what he wants me to ask you about it.) But in essence, IF it is an external regulator, what would cause it to have no power getting to it when all the fusible links are good?

There, I think that's the way he said it.

I know I probably won't have an answer from you before he leaves today, but I don't think it's going to be resolved today.

I'll keep switching batteries and keep charging one while running off the other one to work and back until it all gets figured out and repaired.

Your help is very much appreciated!!!!!!!

Linda

[97Bird]

Hi Linda, According to my Motor's manual a 1987 Ford could have either an alternator with a built in regulator or one that uses an external regulator. If it is external, I don't know where it would be located but it sounds like what your son found could be it. If the "sardine can" connector has four terminals in it with three of those being equally spaced from each other and the fourth one further away then it is the regulator. Kind of like this --- - 123 4. There should be 12V at terminal 3 and at the BAT terminal of the alternator at all times. If your car has a charge indicator light in the dash then there will be a wire in all four terminals of the connector but if you have an ammeter in your dash then the fourth terminal won't have a wire. If this is the regulator then remove it and have it tested. To test the whole charging system: With a fully charged battery installed in the car, have your son take a voltage reading at the battery terminals with the key off. Then start the car and run the engine at about 1500 RPM's while taking another voltage reading. (Be sure the door is closed and all accessories off) The second reading should be greater but no more then 2V above the first. Now turn the heater blower motor switch to high and turn on the high beams of the headlights at the same time. With the engine speed around 2000 RPM's the voltage reading at this point should be greater then 0.5V above the first reading (engine off). As I said before, if you can get a wiring diagram I could help out more.

[1trouble47@cox.net]

Good Morning 97bird,

I forwarded your last answer to my son this morning. He finally got frustrated yesterday and our next appointment is next Friday.

I don't know if the libraries here are open on Sunday (I work nights) so I'll make a trip to the library on Monday if not.

We can't turn on the blower motor to the heater as that is one of the things that was lost along with the gauges, digital speedometer, turn signals and rear window defroster. But he can do everything else that you suggested.

Again, I really appreciate all the time you are taking in helping me with my car.



Linda

[97Bird]

Linda, Did all of the things you listed that don't work now actually work before one particular point in time? It sounds more like there is a problem with the ignition switch or the connections to it since all of these things only work when the ignition switch is in the Run position.

[1trouble47@cox.net]

97bird,

Yes, everything worked just fine until that Saturday that I ran the air conditioning all the way to work (about 10 miles). I turned off the air switch before turning off the car and went in to work. When it was time to leave 8 1/2 hours later, I started the car and all those things were just gone.

Then the next Saturday was when the battery was dead by the time I got to work. I knew it was going because the digital clock was getting dimmer. So after I pulled into a parking space and turned her off, I tried starting her again and the battery was dead.

I didn't get a chance to go to the library yet. Probably won't until my next day off which is Friday. I'll go get the wiring diagrams for you before I head over to my son's.

I just forwarded your information to my son (hopefully he reads his email) so it's one more thing for him to look at this coming Friday.

We're going to fix my "baby" yet

Linda

[97Bird]

Linda, Here is a manual for sale on Ebay that your son could use or scan the pages (only a few!) that I need to see. If your library doesn't have the Mitchell electrical manual for 1987 then this is just as good.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Ford-...spagenameZWD1V

[1trouble47@cox.net]

Hi 97bird,

I took the Thunderchicken over to my son's again yesterday. One of the older mechanics where he works told us to bring the car back to the shop, that he had something he wanted to show Mike.

In five minutes Don (the older mechanic) had found the wire that wasn't functional and they bypassed it to another "hot" line and the car is now charging. Don has worked on Fords most of his life, as well as owning quite a few

It was one of the wires that goes into the plug that goes to the voltage regulator in the alternator.

Next week on Friday they are going to address the issue of all the lost items (digital speedometer, turn signals, etc.). If it's not in the ignition switch (they took your advice on that issue) than it is more than likely the computer that controls all of those items and that is not a cheap part (Dealership item). Somewhere around $800 and then needs to be programmed to the car and reinserted (again needs to be done by the dealership, another $400 labor). Sure hope it's in the ignition switch.

Mike is getting a trial run with a company called AllDataPro and is going to get all the wiring diagrams, etc. to my car on Monday so I'll finally have something to scan and send to you.

The car charging now doesn't mean that the dead short is gone. I'll know today when I am leaving for work. If she starts . . . . . if not I'm switching batteries to get to work today and we're still not done with that part of the problem and we'll keep going from there.

Hopefully Monday I'll be getting all the diagrams to you.

Again, thank you for all your help.



Linda

[rhandwor]

Go to http://www.alldata.com/ you can buy a years subscription for $25.00
they have good wiring diagrams.

[1trouble47@cox.net]

Thank you rhandwor. I believe I'll do that.

97bird has given me a lot of help so far. With any kind of "luck" it will only be in the ignition switch that I lost all of my dash items.

1trouble47@cox.net
Linda

[rhandwor]

Alldata gives the location of all ground points. It maybe a loose ground.