Esprit comes to an end

[EuroSportsCarFan]

I've read that the Esprit is coming to an end at the end of 2004 (www.roadandtrack.com). Does anyone know if Lotus will be making a replacement for the Esprit? Such a nice sprots car to...shame.

[pawn]

i read something about it also. I think its sad to see it come to an end. Nothing can be done...just hope whatever comes out to replace its is as good or better and dosen't look horrible.

[Volken]

Originally Posted by pawn

i read something about it also. I think its sad to see it come to an end. Nothing can be done...just hope whatever comes out to replace its is as good or better and dosen't look horrible.

It is for same reasons Aston Martin,TVR and other,
makers that use V8. It simply can't pass any new regulations.

This is the reason why Vantage went in history.

Esprit will not vanish, far from it, but it will have to make some new alliance for new engine sake.

That is why rumor says it started making Opel Speedster to at some point receive GM engine, GM can give both 2.0 Turbo (Saab,Opel) or from Alfa Romeo 2.0JTS.

Either way, these are the cleanest engines around for Elise and will secure some safe period for Lotus next productions.

As for Esprit, they will have to modificate same engines to get more power, it may seem as sad and not proud thing because of a tradition, but tradition will not put any food on tables of Lotus workers and engineers,so clearly they will have to say yes.

[pawn]

Originally Posted by Volken

As for Esprit, they will have to modificate same engines to get more power, it may seem as sad and not proud thing because of a tradition, but tradition will not put any food on tables of Lotus workers and engineers,so clearly they will have to say yes.

Yes, i strongly agree with you.

[Dynwolf]

Originally Posted by Volken

It is for same reasons Aston Martin,TVR and other,
makers that use V8. It simply can't pass any new regulations.

Where did you get this information?

It's been well publicized in other Esprit forums (and at least one European magazine) that the reason for the Esprit's demise is the discontinuation of the Renault 25 gearbox. This box has been in the Esprit for several years now (and is considered by many to be the "weak link" in the car.) Renault offered to sell Lotus the 25 gearbox line, which Lotus declined. Further, the amount of money to re-engineer a gearbox for a car which has sold a little over 10,000 units in it's 27 year history is huge.

The gearbox issue has been mentioned as recently as the December 2002 TV episode of Top Gear in the UK.

Unless you know something we all don't, the problem is the gearbox, NOT the engine. The lack of a source is why the Esprit is going out of production.

Oh, and to answer an earlier question - rumor has it that a replacement is in the works.

JM

[Volken]

Originally Posted by Dynwolf

Unless you know something we all don't, the problem is the gearbox, NOT the engine. The lack of a source is why the Esprit is going out of production.

Oh, and to answer an earlier question - rumor has it that a replacement is in the works.

JM

Dynwolf,

This might be a mere technicality of this departure nature.

I was talking from wider picture - Big Picture,not production cycles of just a few years.

Most of V8 engines are Ad Acta from point of new regulations.

This has been covered too long and that is the reason why you are so surprised.

But don't think this be Lotus as only one, Bmw will face serious problems with new Euro IV regulations as we speak, because of years neglecting the fact that
he has to be both engaged in both making great cars and responsible for their waste.

Thanks to Audi for example, most of Lamborghini models can past latest regulations with no problem, Most of Aston Martins will do same because of Ford engines.

No, these engines are far from efficient, or petrol saving, but they can pass regulations and that is most important.

To really understand how many brands will face serious problems go to :

http://www.vcacarfueldata.org.uk/

You wont find one single BMW on present Euro IV list !!!

Like many others he is silent for the last moment to avoid embarrassment,because, like many before they all believed money can forever keep needed regulations away from knocking on their doors,but not even corrupted politicians could push that truth away from coming to light.

Everything that has beginning must have an end.

So whether gearbox be temporary dismay or maybe a shortage of purple stockings for Lotus engineers, this is the end of the road, real reasons for old Esprit’s V8 departure.

By asking me where did I hear this,you just presented how your interest is only a pedal pressing activity rather then a bit more both fun but also responsible
direction that every carmaker has to follow today.

[Dynwolf]

Originally Posted by Volken

By asking me where did I hear this,you just presented how your interest is only a pedal pressing activity rather then a bit more both fun but also responsible
direction that every carmaker has to follow today.

While I understand most of your well written post, I'm confused by the line above. Please clarify. I think you're implying that I only like to drive and don't care to know about the inner workings of the automobile industry. If this is what you're trying to say, you are both right and wrong.

As regards the Esprit - you may be 100% correct that the reason for the Esprit's eventual departure from the production world relates to its V8 engine. However, the reason its production is being ceased now is the lack of gearboxes needed to continue on with production. As I indicated in my earlier post, unless you are privy to some insider information at Lotus, the reason the Esprit has discontinued production is not, "for same reasons Aston Martin,TVR and other makers that use V8. It simply can't pass any new regulations." To re-iterate, I don't doubt the foundation of your statement on regulations potentially being the cause of the eventual demise of the Esprit, my only contention is that regulations have nothing to do with the present cause of it's demise.

As I've worked in production for an Aerospace manufacturer, I can assure you that regardless of regulations that MAY affect a product, the cause of a product line being immediately closed is usually directly related to the lack of availability of material - NOT regulation. Prevailing factors such as market demand (which probably played a role in the case of the Esprit) may influence product line decisions, but are never the only cause. The regulations you identify may have contributed to decisions about the Esprit's future, but I'm pretty confident that when the supply of gearboxes dried up, the nail was in the coffin, so to speak. Faced with developing their own gearbox or re-designing their car to use someone else's 'box for a car that sells maybe 200 units per year probably makes little sense to Lotus decision makers, as indeed it would to most other corporate decision makers.

In short - the reason for my original post was to validate the veracity (or in this case, the applicablility) of your information. I challenged your assertion that the Esprit's engine was the reason for it to cease production. I asked if you had any insider information from Lotus that indicated such. While you presented an articulate and concise reply, it ignores the real reason for the car's discontinuance.

As for emissions, don't even get me started there have been better alternatives to the internal combustion engine for decades now! It doesn't encourage big business to invest in such a technology when all the supporting money is elsewhere (oil).

JM

[Volken]

Originally Posted by Dynwolf

While I understand most of your well written post, I'm confused by the line above. Please clarify. I think you're implying that I only like to drive and don't care to know about the inner workings of the automobile industry. JM

Respected Dynwolf,

For the merits of your engage in this matter be of true substance reflecting equal constructive and I'm certain accurate information - lest I be not thought guilty of unmannerly act - gladly I will explain nature of my last written remark.

Recently I came back to see whether forte in this forums has somewhat advanced and posted many new , while sadly, same sleepy trait embraces to many.

My comment was slightly austere for I gathered your written words are but aggressive summation of speed elation without essence for nature and to explore further this subject is pointless.

Nature is a word whose ring has become very touchy in recent times to my ears, and reason of this comment, faulty I admit now, what your last reply made me more then amply aware.

For example, while I write this reply I read this horror:
http://www.greenpeace.org/internatio...item_id=377629

and makes me think if it happens there it happens everywhere to damage of all.

As I said my remark of V8 departure was more introspective or as you would say eventual,but you see supply or recent responses never forced me to this exactitude as your reply made me now, and I'm glad for that, hope you will make habit of it and make others more vital in same direction. No, I don't have any inside information from Lotus for that matter,and I'm sure present departure indeed is due to nature of mentioned sufficiency, regulations I conceived as final verdict for his future of engine.

You mentioned your previous industry field and I gather if not owner surely you at least have extensive know-how with Lotus as it is could you please explain this puzzle of mine with Esprit :

Lotus makes probably finest suspensions in the world, if they wouldn't make any cars,only from their experience, know-how and reputation from shaping the same for other brands they could make enough plans for the future.

I always wonder, after design of 80's, why Esprit never developed and evolutionized Esprit's back spoiler?

When you see Porsche solutions, even Volkswagen's Corrado employed the moving spoiler activated by speed, why this never found application on recent Esprit?

Design of Esprit has clearly no aggressive or power message designation, obviously building finer presence of inner promise of car itself.

Looking from standpoint design only and considering all the power that lurks inside,Esprit has look that is refined,clean and unadorned by trends, quite elegantly simple, yet, as years go by, spoiler gets bigger and bigger and only thing that compromises visually that simplicity remains the spoiler.

Why is that so?

Surely I'm not the only who raised this question?

[Dynwolf]

Originally Posted by Volken

Looking from standpoint design only and considering all the power that lurks inside,Esprit has look that is refined,clean and unadorned by trends, quite elegantly simple, yet, as years go by, spoiler gets bigger and bigger and only thing that compromises visually that simplicity remains the spoiler.

Before I offer comment, I'd like to quote one of my favorite lines from an English car magazine and written about the 1999 Esprit Sport 350: "...the Esprit has had more appendages over the years than an S&M mail order catalog." In my opinion, the look of the spoiler on the 1999 Sport 350 is one of the most appealing of recent years. My car (see www.wulfpack.com/Lotus-11.jpg for reference) has the larger, sweeping rear spoiler common to recent Esprits, and while it is certainly very large, I'm not sure it detracts from the appearance of the car. Yes, as you point out very eloquently, it does compromise the simplicity of the car in terms of appearance, but I feel that it adds to the car's character. (Of course, as you can imagine, my opinion is very biased.)

I agree that the core heritage of the Esprit design is a wedge shape with very few (if any) adornments to break the "hard" lines of the car. The more recent iterations of the car, however, have deviated somewhat from the original "wedge" concept, with some rounder edges on the car from front to back. If you compare my car to an early '80's version, the differences are striking. Why has the spoiler been so prevalent in recent years? I don't know - without knowing the aerodynamic implications of the spoiler designs, I'm not sure how much "appearance" and how much "performance" influences their presence.

In regards to your question about the lack of spoiler development as regards variable pitch or "stowable" spoilers, I think the answer is a simple one. If you look at the photo of my car, you can see that the spoiler attaches to the engine cover/trunk lid. In looking at it, I can't see any easy way to incorporate such a feature without estensive redesign of the rear-half of the car. Again, for a car that has never been sold in record numbers, it was probably a business decision to limit the amount of development money devoted to the Esprit.

Without driving this too far off-topic, as regards the link you provided to Greenpeace, I can assure you that I am as concerned about the use of our natural resources. I do, however, believe that human beings tend to be wasteful creatures by nature. It is very difficult for most of the human race to be able to consider the "big picture" about anything, let alone a concept as abstract as the ramifications of overusing resources.

JM

[Volken]

Originally Posted by Dynwolf

It is very difficult for most of the human race to be able to consider the "big picture" about anything, let alone a concept as abstract as the ramifications of overusing resources.JM

I remember well 1999 Esprit Sport 350, I even liked his wheels to note of more elegance then present design.

Far from suggesting that even latest shape of your Esprit is unattractive or beautiful in its own way.

I suppose I like power that is hidden deep inside of design, and ultimately from standpoint of supercar design,I believe the same should never be conquered with over engineered necessities.

When I look at Boxter, I see clean shape that is pure simplicity which has final decree of shaping that last thought of this design, regardless of opinions.

When I observe Carrera, I see compromise where design has to bend in mercy of need to articulate superior driving dynamics, and that, always to me is aesthetic disappointment.

Lotus obviously knows a few things about aerodynamic and hardly I think they placed new revision for no reason. Quite opposite I think they targeted dynamics to the point of full service, and from what finances would grant, traditional approach remained, just , not my cup of tea.

Far from suggesting you be driver of bad looking car.

After all, no spoiler could deny sensation of bliss this car is capable.

There is concept presently available to cars and supercars called Fly-Sequent. It originates from Italy from world leader in applying conversion to LPG or CNG.

It is in beginning and already in use (I use the same) and offers only 2% less performance loss regardless of engine type (after proper factory install optimization) compared to petrol.

But interesting thing is that they are about to offer to each maker under floor optimized trunk for CNG (!), with same 2% loss in power. That would mean for your Esprit :

0% plumb/lead - 0% sulphur - 94% less of (CO) - 25-30% less (CO2) -
34% (Nox), - 45% hydrocarbon (CH) ... and I could go on...

Engine alone will run much calmer and reliable because mixture is more soft on engine.

I wrote this instead of going to comment sad world of environment, that would take books.

Allow me to present what a few minutes allowed me to make.

Just a swift sketch a dilettante attempt if you will,but still, direction I would imagine Esprit's shape.

Did I ... too weak in eyes of Lotus old school?

[Dynwolf]

It's a nice looking attempt - my only concern would be : Does the spoiler mechanism occupy the trunk space?

Where was the photo taken? It looks like a 2002-2003 esprit, but with the US style rear lower valance. (And no center pipes.) Did you remove the spoiler digitally, or was it not affixed to the car originally?

Took mine out today - Sunday is often the only day I get to drive it, and I have a favorite canyon route I like to take. Believe it or not, some kids in a modified Honda Civic revved on me coming home. (I didn't acknowledge - I don't feel the need to "show off" - nor do I want a speeding ticket for "speed exhibition".)

JM

[Volken]

Originally Posted by Dynwolf

It's a nice looking attempt - my only concern would be : Does the spoiler mechanism occupy the trunk space?
Where was the photo taken? It looks like a 2002-2003 esprit, but with the US style rear lower valance. (And no center pipes.) Did you remove the spoiler digitally, or was it not affixed to the car originally?
Took mine out today - Sunday is often the only day I get to drive it, and I have a favorite canyon route I like to take. Believe it or not, some kids in a modified Honda Civic revved on me coming home. (I didn't acknowledge - I don't feel the need to "show off" - nor do I want a speeding ticket for "speed exhibition".)

JM

Well, I imagine spoiler mechanism would reside in trunk, but with some ingenious skill, much like was done in Saab 9-3 Hatch Cabrio not to expense of space.

Yes I removed all in digital domain.

To enhance inner promise of Esprit I departured pipes as well.

As for exact details of this car :
http://www.corsaphotos.com/gallery/album15

This is where I took idea model from.

As for speed,driving many to many cars and more in domain of super
designation, I've came to conclusion what many said before me:

Greatest driving pleasures have very little to do with the driving speed.

[86turbo944]

Volken, Dynwolf is correct-the lack of available Renault 25 gearboxes is the reason why Esprit production is ending. The Esprit actually wasn't that bad on emmissions with the twin turbo V8. The Renault gearbox is a vengeful bitch-it is compeltely unreliable, and mis-shifts were all to common, as there are no definitive notches when shifting. This was all reported by Tiff Needell in his road test of the Esprit for Top Gear.

Video available at www.racingflix.com

[Volken]

Originally Posted by 86turbo944

Volken, Dynwolf is correct-the lack of available Renault 25 gearboxes is the reason why Esprit production is ending. The Esprit actually wasn't that bad on emmissions with the twin turbo V8. The Renault gearbox is a vengeful bitch-it is compeltely unreliable, and mis-shifts were all to common, as there are no definitive notches when shifting. This was all reported by Tiff Needell in his road test of the Esprit for Top Gear.

Video available at www.racingflix.com

86turbo944,

You should read full messages body to see I never made this issue
as exact as you offer remedy for.

366 C02 (g/km), 1.984 CO (g/km), 0.240 HC+NOx (g/km) is hardly
"that bad", it is bad !

Even Elise was in deep in old Euro III regulation, and you know that
difference between those engines are as if would you compare house and mountain.

[86turbo944]

Volken-you are correct-compared to most passenger vehicles, the Esprit is pretty bad on emmissions. What I really meant with my post was that, compared to other exotic european sportcars, the Esprit is at least "not that bad" if not "comparable". Sorry for the confusion.