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Engineering/Technical Ask technical questions about cars. Do you know how a car engine works? |
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03-06-2004, 05:51 PM | #46 | ||
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Re: 69' BOSS 302 VS Camaro Z28
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A smaller displacement tends to rev higher in most cases, thus giving more HP. Like the desktop dyno showed, the 351 only made 20 more PEAK HP than the 302. But, of course at lower RPM. Oh and the thing about launching-Well, I've only ever driver auto big blocks. 2 of them. I did drive (as a daily driver) a 2wd pickup with a 383 stroker and 4:10 gears for 3 months. That had no traction whatsoever off the line. I ran a best of 13.1 on it with street tires. Could have been deep into 12's with slicks. That was about a year ago.
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88' Dodge Shadow- 2.2L, 5 speed...a couple mods 12.37@111.75 MPH |
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03-06-2004, 10:02 PM | #47 | |
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Re: Re: 69' BOSS 302 VS Camaro Z28
My computer can beat your computer.....
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03-07-2004, 07:33 AM | #48 | ||
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Re: Re: Re: 69' BOSS 302 VS Camaro Z28
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88' Dodge Shadow- 2.2L, 5 speed...a couple mods 12.37@111.75 MPH |
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03-07-2004, 09:06 AM | #49 | |
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What your Desktop Dyno does not show is that because of the factory Cleveland 4V head design, the heads work better on a 351 cube engine than a 302 cube engine, so with both using the same factory cam, there is more than a 20HP gap it their peak outputs.
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03-07-2004, 09:14 AM | #50 | ||
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Re: 69' BOSS 302 VS Camaro Z28
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03-07-2004, 09:20 AM | #51 | |
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My point was the 302 will make good PEAK HP with the cleveland heads. Yes of course it will have no bottom end or throttle response.
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88' Dodge Shadow- 2.2L, 5 speed...a couple mods 12.37@111.75 MPH |
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03-07-2004, 10:27 AM | #52 | ||
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Re: Re: 69' BOSS 302 VS Camaro Z28
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Don't even bring up the 69 Boss 302 heads which were too big for even the open track racing. No one used these heads when given a choice. The Boss 302 changed to the standard 351C 4V sized valves (2.19/1.71) for 1970. The hard core Cleveland drag racers did not even use these oversized valves. Bore size effects valve shrouding. Air volume and velocity effects head efficiency. This is the true difference between the 3.00 and 3.5" stroke engines. |
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03-07-2004, 10:29 AM | #53 | ||
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Re: 69' BOSS 302 VS Camaro Z28
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03-07-2004, 10:38 AM | #54 | |
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Whatever, I don't fell like arguing anymore. Blah blah blah you win
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88' Dodge Shadow- 2.2L, 5 speed...a couple mods 12.37@111.75 MPH |
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03-07-2004, 01:08 PM | #55 | ||
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Re: 69' BOSS 302 VS Camaro Z28
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A little history.....I took my drivers test in a 73 Mustang. The first engine I built was a 351C. That engine was in my 73 Mustang when I made my first of many passes down the 1320. Tell me about your experience or at least of someone else's car that you saw run at the track, or that you talked to after they ran their car at the track. Don't hold the Desktop Dyno as the final authority on anything. It is a tool. Learn to use it and put it into a proper perspective. Learn to debate like an adult, not a 16 year old kid who just got their license, reads magazines and hides behind a keyboard. Adults don't resort to direct insults when they do not like what someone else is saying. If you don't want to discuss these motors anymore.....fine. If you do, then be civil. |
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03-07-2004, 02:23 PM | #56 | |
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I'm not getting whiny I'm just tired of your BS excuses. All you say is I don't know what I'm talking about, and thats all you are going to say to anything I throw at you so I'm done.
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88' Dodge Shadow- 2.2L, 5 speed...a couple mods 12.37@111.75 MPH |
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03-07-2004, 05:59 PM | #57 | |
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Re: 69' BOSS 302 VS Camaro Z28
[quote=PWMAN]I'm not getting whiny I'm just tired of your BS excuses. All you say is I don't know what I'm talking about, and thats all you are going to say to anything I throw at you QUOTE]
I made one statement that you are clueless when it comes to real world performance of the Cleveland head, and I stand by that. Just admit that you have no real world experience. You have continued to refuse to address any of the technical points that I have brought up. You merely come back with something different, and continue with the insults. You drift from the original points. Maybe you should stick to the boards where you can say whatever you want and people won't question you, you will have better luck. I am open to discuss the Boss 302 and Boss 351/351 Cleveland engines, or any other Ford engine if you are man enough to do it without the childish insults. |
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03-07-2004, 06:28 PM | #58 | |
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Fine. So you rebuilt your 351 in your mustang, BFG-I bet it didn't even have 4 bbl heads. So because you rebuilt 1 cleveland, that makes you an expert?
I've rebuilt a 351M, 400M, 390 FE, 273 mopar, 350 chevy, 283 chevy. 383 stroker chevy, 307 chevy, 331 FE, 318 mopar, and soon a 360 mopar when I get the rebuild kit this week..probably more just cannot think. I will admit that I have no experience with any clevelands, but plenty with modified's which is a whole different animal though. But like I said before I have experience at the track, and launching cars that it's hard to get traction. Just no manuals, all auto's. We used to have a 67' GT vert mustang with 289 4 speed, drove it a few times but it was more like a show car and my dad would have killed me if I took it to the track. Even with the little 289, not to mention 3:1 airplane gears it would just spin through 2nd gear without much effort. Maybe if it had a posi... Btw, there are things you didn't answer me about either so I don't want to here it.
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88' Dodge Shadow- 2.2L, 5 speed...a couple mods 12.37@111.75 MPH |
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03-07-2004, 08:09 PM | #59 | ||
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Re: 69' BOSS 302 VS Camaro Z28
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Well.....my friend......11 whole engines.........more than most internet "experts", but I have you more than covered. I not only have rebuilt many times more than you, including my share of Clevelands, I have run most of them on a dyno, although not the Clevelands. I never claimed to be an expert or have all of the answers, I just refuted the points which you were attempting to make about how the Boss 302 made 400HP from the factory. Not only have my many Cleveland engines had 4V heads, I still have several pair on the shelf for future projects. You admitted yourself that you have not even a single pair on any of your engines. Although that has nothing to do with you thinking that the Boss 302 was better than it really was. By the way, leave the M off of the 400 Ford engine when you describe it, it doesn't belong. There has only been 1 400 Ford engine. The M only applies to the 351M. Just because someone puts a typo on a truck valve cover (351/400M), people think that there is a 400M engine. You will find no reference in Ford literature including the master parts catalogs about a 400M, just the 400. Your experience with 400 and M engines directly applies to 2V head applications. The heads do not know if they are on a 351M or a 351C. Other than the intakes, they are on an engine with a 4" bore and a 3.5" stroke. They are functioning the same. The disadvantage to the M is the weight. This all started when you were defending the Boss 302 against the Z28, and made the statement that the Boss 302 was the second fastest Mustang. Magazine test times, and real world drag strip performances do not support this. You also couldn't believe that the Z28 made more power stock. With the dual ram intake, it most assuredly did. The 2.02 valve GM heads worked better on the Chevy 302 than did either of the oversized valve Boss heads. If you are willing to try this again, let's keep this to technical info. Bring it on...........what questions did I not answer? If we continue with the stupid stuff, I am sure that the thread will get locked. |
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03-07-2004, 08:39 PM | #60 | |
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Well I wasn't thumping my chest, just trying to show you I have SOME experience under my belt.
anyway, about the 400M thing-you are right but everyone says it so I do too just out of habit. Don't make a BFG over it. I will definitely admit that chevy's 302 made more low end power. And what are you talking about dual ram intake? The DZ302 had a single holley 4 bbl with 780 CFM.
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88' Dodge Shadow- 2.2L, 5 speed...a couple mods 12.37@111.75 MPH |
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