A new noise coming from engine compartment

[olopezm]

Originally Posted by serge_saati

I said it could be worn lifters, but not adjustment issue. Adjustment issue are very rare on modern engine. You adjust rocker arms and torque nut only when you replace lifters usually. But you're right, you can test the play like that. And you're right about the pdf, I thought the pdf was for only for non adjustable rocker arms.

And yes, I think is more the chain tensioner the problem.

Thank you Serge, I will take a look at it within the next days, I'm kinda busy right now. I found a video on youtube about how to check for a stretched timing chain with a timing light; unfortunately the windstar has no timing marks (that I know of) so I guess no luck there.

Originally Posted by tempfixit

Oscar have you tried listening to the valve cover area's with a stethoscope, screwdriver or hose to see if you can detect any valvetrain noise differences???

IMO it would be worth a try for piece of mind to eliminate the valvetrain.

Hi Larry, thanks for showing up! I tried the front cover, rear was kinda hard to reach but will take another look at it, I'll remove the wipers cowl for easier access. You're right, I would prefer upper engine repair than having to deal with that dreaded front cover.

Originally Posted by 12Ounce

Some 160k miles ago, I rebuilt my 3.8. Myself. Me, not my cousin or neighbor. Me.

Unless I was smoking something really good, the valve system ... lifters, rockers, etc ... had no manual adjustment!

Thanks 12Ounce, I'm pretty sure that when I peeked down into the oil filler cap I saw bolts rather than nuts on the rocker arms, that's why I also think there is no adjustment for these, however I can't be totally sure about it, I'll find out when I remove the valve cover. I think that your method with the feeler gauge involved checking for play between the push rod and rocker arm (as I intended to with my fingers while engine is off, rather than a gauge) instead of taking a look at the hydraulic lifters under the lower manifold.

Oscar.

[12Ounce]

Originally Posted by olopezm

......... unfortunately the windstar has no timing marks (that I know of) so I guess no luck there.........

Oscar.

Actually, there is a mark on the crankwheel but it is usually very faint. There is also a timing pointer moulded in the front cover. All located low and "behind everything" ... you need the head and neck of a snake to observe. Now that I know where it is .... its still difficult to find, even with a mirrow on an extendable rod.

[tempfixit]

Oscar do you have a scantool that reads live data including timing?

On my 3.0 Vulcan I can see the timing changing while idling with the scantool , I fiqure that is telling me the chain has some play but I do not hear any chain noise at all, 230k on engine and never touched. My scantool is a OBDCOM software for a Laptop.

I do not know if this would work or not, could be worth a try. Find TDC usng a vacuum gauge , then use a marker of sme kind, (I use white out as a marker)
Put a mark on the engine block and a mark on the harmonic balancer and see if the mark jumps around while idling with a timing lite.

Here is a link for video use vacuum gauge to find TDC:

https://www.ericthecarguy.com/videos...id=u2sA-q7_FtQ

[olopezm]

Originally Posted by 12Ounce

Actually, there is a mark on the crankwheel but it is usually very faint. There is also a timing pointer moulded in the front cover. All located low and "behind everything" ... you need the head and neck of a snake to observe. Now that I know where it is .... its still difficult to find, even with a mirrow on an extendable rod.

A mark on the harmonic balancer you say? I will see if I can find it; also what's the approximate location of the pointer on the timing cover?

Originally Posted by tempfixit

Oscar do you have a scantool that reads live data including timing?

On my 3.0 Vulcan I can see the timing changing while idling with the scantool , I fiqure that is telling me the chain has some play but I do not hear any chain noise at all, 230k on engine and never touched. My scantool is a OBDCOM software for a Laptop.

I do not know if this would work or not, could be worth a try. Find TDC usng a vacuum gauge , then use a marker of sme kind, (I use white out as a marker)
Put a mark on the engine block and a mark on the harmonic balancer and see if the mark jumps around while idling with a timing lite.

Here is a link for video use vacuum gauge to find TDC:

https://www.ericthecarguy.com/videos...id=u2sA-q7_FtQ

My cheap actron scanner does reads some PID's, ignition advance is one of them; is it supposed to be static at idle? I might take a look at it too.

I'm guessing that your suggested method would involve finding TDC for cylinder #1 right? I hate having to do such procedure on this van LOL but I might give that a try too. I just have to get ahold of a vacuum gauge, I've seen them at autozone but they are around $85 over here, I was about to buy one but ended up spending the money on repairs for my Pontiac... It's definitely worth owning one.

Oscar.

[serge_saati]

Originally Posted by tempfixit

Oscar do you have a scantool that reads live data including timing?

On my 3.0 Vulcan I can see the timing changing while idling with the scantool , I fiqure that is telling me the chain has some play but I do not hear any chain noise at all, 230k on engine and never touched. My scantool is a OBDCOM software for a Laptop.

I do not know if this would work or not, could be worth a try. Find TDC usng a vacuum gauge , then use a marker of sme kind, (I use white out as a marker)
Put a mark on the engine block and a mark on the harmonic balancer and see if the mark jumps around while idling with a timing lite.

On the Windstar, the ignition timing advance is controled by the PCM and this one read the data of the CRANKSHAFT POSITION SENSOR only, not the camshaft position sensor for the ignition timing advance. Because it doesn't have distributor. So a problem with the chain will not affect the ignition timing advance, and the timing light will not warn him about a bad timing chain adjustment, a damaged chain; it will always point the timing mark on the crankshaft pulley or harmonic balancer. So the mark will not jump.

The timing advance change automatically because the PCM modify it electronically with the engine load and rpm, fuel mixture... etc, not because of a loose chain.

[tempfixit]

Oscar I am not familiar with the 3.8 engine, I would try finding the pointer and mark on the harmonic balancer (I believe that is what 12Ounce means by cranckwheel).
Would removing the passenger wheel so you can see the balancer and front cover be helpful. (Hopefully someone can verify this)

I believe the timing should stay steady at idle.

Yes you would need to find TDC on #1 clyinder to line up marks.

Harbor Frieght has Vacuum gauges that are like $20, I do not know what shipping would cost you tho. Hopefully 12Ounces way works for you, that would save you some $$$$.

PS: Just read Serge's post so if I am understanding correctly that a engine that does not idle at a constant (example 700RPM) the the timing be will changed by the PCM as the rpm's change.

[serge_saati]

Originally Posted by tempfixit

PS: Just read Serge's post so if I am understanding correctly that a engine that does not idle at a constant (example 700RPM) the the timing be will changed by the PCM as the rpm's change.

Exactly. So checking the timing advance will not tell if the chain is bad or not. Chain affects the valve opening and closing only.

To check if the chain is loose or not, you should open the chain cover and rotate the camshaft sprocket to see if there's play.

[olopezm]

OK thank you guys, I really appreciate your input.

In that the case I will remove both valve covers and see if there is any play. If nothing relevant is found, I will then get ready to remove the front cover.

Oscar.

[12Ounce]

Yes, "crankwheel" = harmonic balancer. (Nothing like dating yourself!)

Looking at the harmonic balancer, the pointer is near "10 o'clock".

[olopezm]

Ok guys, I just found this. I know it's for an engine that has a distributor but since these 3.8's have a cam synchronizer which replaces the distributor, it could serve the same purpose for this test.

Slowly turn the crankshaft pulley in a clockwise direction. Watch the distributor and observe that the rotor is moving. Stop turning. Now - mark the damper pulley position with the chalk or observe the degree wheel. Very carefully turn the crankshaft in the other direction and VERY carefully observe the rotor in the distributor. The instant it begins to move STOP turning and mark the crankshaft position again. Measure the number of degrees of rotation of the crankshaft. If there is a lot of slop in the chain then you will have moved the crankshaft ten or fifteen degrees (or more) before taking the slop out of the chain after the reversal before the camshaft began to turn. Get the picture?? If all is well and there is no slack in the timing chain then you will see about three to five degrees of "reverse motion" before the distributor begins to turn.

Seems like a good idea, isn't it?

Oscar.

[tempfixit]

IMO it is worth a try to check it out.

[12Ounce]

I think that procedure is written for an engine that has the distributor driven off of a cam, which is in-turn driven by a chain off the crank. Honda made some engines of this design.

But, I think, (bad to get old and forgetfull) that the 3.8's synchronizer ("distributor") is gear driven directly off of the crank. I may be wrong ... and am too lazy at the moment to look it up.

At any rate, I have used a plastic rod to reach down thru #1 cyl spark hole to "feel" the piston top as the engine is hand-rocked back-and-forth across TDC to verify markings on the harmonic balancer. A similar procedure that I know works.

[tempfixit]

According to my 98 thru 02 CD the syncronizer gear is attached to the camshaft along with the timing chain gear.

I do not know how to attach picture from CD so if someone could help me out with this I will try posting the pic.

[12Ounce]

Yeah, the more I think of it ... the synchronizer is not long enough to reach the crank, it must connect with the cam. Gettin too old for this stuff! Seen too many engine insides, they all get muddled together.

[serge_saati]

Yes the synchronizer is driven by the cam.