A new noise coming from engine compartment

[12Ounce]

What?? You're back to the synchronizer!! .... that was the first suggenstion you got ... back on page one!!

(Just kidding ya... mysteries abound in problem solving!)

If you can remove the sensor and get a few drops of oil down in that thing, ... it will really change how it works .... if its the problem to start with.

[olopezm]

Yeah I know man! I'm sorry. I was so narrow minded about the noise being a valvetrain/drivebelt problem that I almost completely ruled out everything else. Besides, I used to know the synchro would make more like a squealing noise; at least those were the stories I've seen posted in the forum, never a tapping/ticking like noise.

Was until I read that the synchro is directly connected to the oil pump shaft; at first I couldn't understand tempfixit's idea until now! I don't know what could cause it to tap but might definitely try putting some oil in it.

So, do you think a bad synchro could be causing the symptoms I wrote in my previous post?.

I still have too much to learn about this engine, the memories from us rebuilding it are way too blurry to take into account LOL.

I appreciate all of your comments 12Ounce and everyone else; I'd be having a hard time without this forum and you guys.

Oscar.

[Windstartled]

Originally Posted by olopezm

Thanks, well I had the bearing noise (before the first pulley replacement) but no squealing and the serpentine belt does not seems to loose tension while the engine is turning. Don't know if the spring can go bad before there is any noticeable movement.

I wouldn't think so, when I had the wobbling I noticed no vertical movement indicative of spring failure, just the pulley shaking with its shaft moving back and forth horizontally. Also when I took the old tensioner out I released the spring and examined the tensioner, it appeared do be under full tension. The pulley however, was obviously shot. It would spin freely like a bike wheel when normally there should be some measure of resistance from bearing lubricant. No resistance = no lubricant = no good

[12Ounce]

I'm just jerking you around ... noises/leaks/vibrations/electric-problems can be so difficult to find and fix. I'm sure the recycle yards are full of vehicles that had easy-to-fix issues .... that no one could find. We've all been there.

I personally would now guess the problem is not the scychronizer ... but who knows? It would certainly be good maintenance to drop some oil into it.

[serge_saati]

Hi Oscar. Bad synchro doesn't make this sound. It actually makes a high pitched squeaky metallic noise, similar one as worn drum brakes shoes noise when you hit the brakes or same as bad quality hamster wheel. So it's not that.

For me it sound like a worn timing chain like other suggest cause it's the caracteristic of a steady rattling noise of a bad timing chain.

But it could also be a noisy valve lifter or valve. In these cases I suggest you to switch back to 15W40. It's, normally, not the recommanded oil grade for this engine, EXCEPT when you have a sticky valve lifter, valve or worn timing chain it can cure the noise.

But I suggest you before to have it inspected in a garage with a sthetoscope to better diagnose the problem. A broken timing chain will make destroy the engine. Heavier oil will not prevent the chain to fail, but it'll make it last longer.
If it's the lifter, you don't have to replace them, just switch your oil grade. Unless if the heavier oil doesn't fix the noise issue.
I think it's more the chain because I don't ear tapping, only rattling.


The same noise could be caused by the water pump, but if it was the case it'll not be affected by the temp and it'll be a coincidance if it appears after you switch oil grade.

And when you remove the belt and but it back, I still ear the noise even if sound is lower in intensity. So if it's the same noise when you remove belt and put it back, it eliminate the water pump completely.

I also noticed that even when you rev up, the noise is still there. Maybe you don't ear it because the engine noise cover the sound, but it still there.

How much mileage do you have on your engine? In my Taurus with 3.0L OHV engine, I had have replaced the timing chain at 92,000 miles cause it was a little bit loose, even it didn't make any noise and running fine.

[olopezm]

Originally Posted by Windstartled

I wouldn't think so, when I had the wobbling I noticed no vertical movement indicative of spring failure, just the pulley shaking with its shaft moving back and forth horizontally. Also when I took the old tensioner out I released the spring and examined the tensioner, it appeared do be under full tension. The pulley however, was obviously shot. It would spin freely like a bike wheel when normally there should be some measure of resistance from bearing lubricant. No resistance = no lubricant = no good

Thanks man, yeah, that's what the tensioner pulley was like at both times; the second time was even worse, that crappy replacement could have caused something more serious, when I took it out it was like a baby rattle.

Originally Posted by 12Ounce

I'm just jerking you around ... noises/leaks/vibrations/electric-problems can be so difficult to find and fix. I'm sure the recycle yards are full of vehicles that had easy-to-fix issues .... that no one could find. We've all been there.

I personally would now guess the problem is not the scychronizer ... but who knows? It would certainly be good maintenance to drop some oil into it.

Thank you very much. I'm not in the mood right know but will certainly drop some oil in there. I'm getting tired of having to deal with this Windstar. I remember when we used to go on long trips in our 1985 Ford E-150, man that's a bullet proof van. We still have it, unfortunately has been sitting for too long because we don't have enough space at home. Leaving cars out in the street is not an option with such "great" neighbors.

Originally Posted by serge_saati

Hi Oscar. Bad synchro doesn't make this sound. It actually makes a high pitched squeaky metallic noise, similar one as worn drum brakes shoes noise when you hit the brakes or same as bad quality hamster wheel. So it's not that.

Hi serge, I really appreciate your response. Noise problems are certainly a nightmare, specially when everyone has a different definition for each sound LOL. When I "metallic clicking noise" I was expecting it could be it.

Originally Posted by serge_saati

For me it sound like a worn timing chain like other suggest cause it's the caracteristic of a steady rattling noise of a bad timing belt.

I definitely don't like the sound of that. Other than the noise, are there any other symptoms that could either confirm it or rule it out? I wonder why it would start after switching between oil weights. If that's the case I guess I'll really have to think about the future of this thing...

Just to clarify, are you talking about the rattling noise in the third video? I have tried to pinpoint that one since 2010 with no success. That noise happens only at warm idle from time to time, specially when there is electrical load on the engine (electric fans, windows reaching the end of their race, etc.) . I have an old thread about it HERE .

Originally Posted by serge_saati

But it could also be a noisy valve lifter or valve. In these cases I suggest you to switch back to 15W40. It's, normally, not the recommanded oil grade for this engine, EXCEPT when you have a sticky valve lifter, valve or worn timing belt it can cure the noise.

That would be great. I hadn't think about it and don't know if it could help the "diagnostic" but, before the oil change I had the classic tapping noise caused by loss of oil pressure overnight with crappy oil filters. It would start with a cold engine and go away after a some minutes. It changed with RPM's.

Could this have contributed to worn lifters and evolved into the current problem?

Originally Posted by serge_saati

But I suggest you before to have it inspected in a garage with a sthetoscope to better diagnose the problem. A broken timing chain will make destroy the engine. Heavier oil will not prevent the chain to fail, but it'll make it last longer.
If it's the lifter, you don't have to replace them, just switch your oil grade.

I bought a craftsman's yesterday and tried to pinpoint the noise but couldn't succeed. I might say it seems to be coming from the block and several inches under the synchro, maybe towards the idler pulley. I'll try to confirm it the next time.

Listening to valve lifters would require me to put the stethoscope ON the valve covers right? Reaching the rear cover will be a challenge... Is there any "hot spot" I should give a try?

Originally Posted by serge_saati

I also noticed that even when you rev up, the noise is still there. Maybe you don't ear it because the engine noise cover the sound, but it still there.

Man you must have bionic ears. I tried listening to it and can't hear the tapping noise.

Originally Posted by serge_saati

How much mileage do you have on your engine? In my Taurus with 3.0L OHV engine, I had have replaced the timing chain at 92,000 miles cause it was a little bit loose, even it didn't make any noise and running fine.

Engine has around 94779 miles. We rebuilt it twice, because of overheating around 6 or 7 years ago, but honestly can't recall on wether we installed a new chain or not.

***************

Thank you very much to everyone for your comments.

Oscar.

[serge_saati]

Originally Posted by olopezm

Just to clarify, are you talking about the rattling noise in the third video? I have tried to pinpoint that one since 2010 with no success. That noise happens only at warm idle from time to time, specially when there is electrical load on the engine (electric fans, windows reaching the end of their race, etc.) . I have an old thread about it HERE .

It could be the alternator. I make a search for an alternator rattling noise and it's the same as yours, in the 2 Acura:

This guy in this video has replaced his alternator and the noise has decreased a lot in intensity. Cause he may have another noise....

So remove belt again and record the noise again w/o belt so we can compare. Turn off engine and play with alternator, P/S pumps and all other pulleys.

Originally Posted by olopezm

Listening to valve lifters would require me to put the stethoscope ON the valve covers right? Reaching the rear cover will be a challenge... Is there any "hot spot" I should give a try?

Yes.
The 3 "column" in the valve cover and timing chain cover.

Originally Posted by olopezm

That would be great. I hadn't think about it and don't know if it could help the "diagnostic" but, before the oil change I had the classic tapping noise caused by loss of oil pressure overnight with crappy oil filters. It would start with a cold engine and go away after a some minutes. It changed with RPM's.

Could this have contributed to worn lifters and evolved into the current problem?

Yes if the oil filter is bad. But you've tried another brand of filter after the noise occurs, right?

[olopezm]

Thanks again serge_saati,

Originally Posted by serge_saati

It could be the alternator. I make a search for an alternator rattling noise and it's the same as yours...

That's what I've been thinking all this time but I've find it difficult to pinpoint the exact location specially when there is no pattern for the noise to appear.

What I meant to ask in my previous post is if the rattling noise in that (third) video is the one you think could be a bad timing chain. Or, were you talking about noise in my first two videos only?

Originally Posted by serge_saati

Yes.
The 3 "column" in the valve cover and timing chain cover.

I'll give that a try, thanks again.

Originally Posted by serge_saati

Yes if the oil filter is bad. But you've tried another brand of filter after the noise occurs, right?

It was a crappy fram filter used throughout the previous oil change that caused the noise; I didn't change it at the recommended interval so it was overdue. Since I read about the quality of such oil filters, I decided to use motorcraft filters along with same oil brand. That was the moment when I started to hear the tapping noise in the first two videos; the only thing I've done was to install a different motorcraft oil filter.

I'll listen with the stethoscope tomorrow and will make another video with the belt removed.

Oscar.

[serge_saati]

Originally Posted by olopezm

What I meant to ask in my previous post is if the rattling noise in that (third) video is the one you think could be a bad timing chain. Or, were you talking about noise in my first two videos only?

It's the same noise in all 3 video. In all of them it could be timing chain, pulleys, valve train.... It has the serpentine belt in all video.
I suggest you to listen to timing chain cover while the serpentine belt is removed, cause you've more space and you'll more focus on its noise.

Which model of Fram filter do you consider crappy? Is it the Fram Extra Guard oil filter?
http://mx.fram.com/enmx/products/oil...ard_oil_filter

What do you think about the Fram Xtended Guard filter?

[12Ounce]

Originally Posted by serge_saati

........

So remove belt again and record the noise again w/o belt so we can compare........

Ditto, ditto...........

[Windstartled]

Originally Posted by olopezm

Thanks man, yeah, that's what the tensioner pulley was like at both times; the second time was even worse, that crappy replacement could have caused something more serious, when I took it out it was like a baby rattle.

There may have been a systemic problem with Ford tensioners a decade ago. When I go to the salvage yard one out of two vehicles there have their drive belt removed (people collect them for spares I guess) and I noticed that on Windstars, Taurus, Lincoln and some other Fords the tensioner pulley is often loose meaning the bearings are shot. This is much less common on other makes. Also when I hear bearing noises when stopped at a traffic light it often comes from a Ford

[olopezm]

Originally Posted by serge_saati

Which model of Fram filter do you consider crappy? Is it the Fram Extra Guard oil filter?
http://mx.fram.com/enmx/products/oil...ard_oil_filter

What do you think about the Fram Xtended Guard filter?

Hi serge,

I've never used the xtended guard; over here the only available models are extra and tough guard and most of them have caused loud lifter noise ticking during cold starts on my vehicles. I've used other brands like Delco and Gonher (mexican brand), which caused no noise on startup. I can also say that googling "orange can of death" has revealed lots of problems around the world; different car forums have the same impression about it.

I kept using fram because autozone is close to my house and they are cheap but now that I get discount prices at the dealer, I can get motorcraft filters for only $3.60, they will stay in the past.

I obviously cannot condemn all of their filters since I haven't tried them all but by experience and general consensus I can say fram stands for low quality.

***************

Back to the topic.

I listened with the stethoscope while the engine was cold:

Timing chain cover: I tried at different spots and I could only listen to what I would consider as a normal chain noise, was like someone dragging a chain around on the floor or manually opening one of those big warehouse doors; I hope you get the idea. Never heard any slapping.

Valve covers: While trying different spots, I could notice some of them seemed a bit louder than the rest, I could refer to it like a slight diesel engine sound but nothing excessive and of course, only noticeable with the stethoscope.

In any case I couldn't hear any tapping, rattling, slapping, etc.

Alternator made no unusual noises and steering pump, the same. While probing on the water pump I could only hear water flowing.

Drove it for a few minutes to warm the engine and be able to hear the noise. When I got home I could tell the noise definitely comes from the drive belt area and listening with the stethoscope reveals what seems to be a metallic clicking noise. Seems to be coming from somewhere in the middle of the block (at the height of the idler pulley) and I can still hear it through the oil filter. Removed the serpentine belt, took me only a few seconds, and tried again; noise wasn't there anymore.

I've uploaded 3 new videos:

Cold engine startup

Warm engine with belt installed

Warm engine without belt installed

Thanks in advance,

Oscar

[olopezm]

Originally Posted by Windstartled

There may have been a systemic problem with Ford tensioners a decade ago. When I go to the salvage yard one out of two vehicles there have their drive belt removed (people collect them for spares I guess) and I noticed that on Windstars, Taurus, Lincoln and some other Fords the tensioner pulley is often loose meaning the bearings are shot. This is much less common on other makes. Also when I hear bearing noises when stopped at a traffic light it often comes from a Ford

Ha ha, yeah I'm seriously considering that, when I get the chance, I might not be buying another Ford again...

I like to play the "guess the noise game" every time I'm on the street and have nothing to do. Belt noises around here seem to come more often from Nissan Platina's (mexican version of the Renault Clio Symbol) and most of the times from Dodges.

[serge_saati]

Originally Posted by olopezm

Drove it for a few minutes to warm the engine and be able to hear the noise. When I got home I could tell the noise definitely comes from the drive belt area and listening with the stethoscope reveals what seems to be a metallic clicking noise. Seems to be coming from somewhere in the middle of the block (at the height of the idler pulley) and I can still hear it through the oil filter. Removed the serpentine belt, took me only a few seconds, and tried again; noise wasn't there anymore.

No, I still ear the same noise after you removed the belt and even when engine is cold. Althought it's quiter than when it's cold.

So it's really in the engine. I still think it could be the timing chain or the lifters. But I think it's more likely the timing chain.

Read this for additional infos on the timing chain noise diagnosis:
http://www.ehow.com/how_7648418_diag...in-noises.html

A loose chain can cause metallic noise and can cause the lifter and rocker arms to make additional noise too because of the instant acceleration and deceleration of moving parts when you rev up or release gas when it's slack.

I suggest you to have someone else or many other people to ear the chain noise with the stethoscope to tell if it's the noise is normal or not as a second opinion.

[12Ounce]

I removed and inspected my chain around 216k miles... it showed no wear, so it was re-installed and now is at 341k miles. I expect it to go to 500k miles. Mobil1. If I ever replace the chain, the wheels will also be replaced. For some engines... the chains, wheels, take-ups, guides, etc ... are all available as a single kit.

If your chain is the noise maker, it could just be the take-up/tensioner device. They are sometimes defective and fail. I'm not sure, don't remember about the one in the 3.8, if this tensioner has a hydraulic component or not ... it may just be a spring. If it does have a hydraulic component, that might answer why it is sensitive to oil-weight and temperature. ??