I gots me a car.... :D

[Broke_as_****]

Originally Posted by Yaggus

In the early 70's the Celica was designed and built as a sports car. So if you are using the 'what it was originally designed as' argument, then your argument jsut went out the window.

No it hasn't. I would think it would be hard to argue against the fact that the Celica has strayed very far off its original 70s design intent.

This whole debate seems like a bunch cockswaggling. Everyone seems to be talking about different cars, or at least different models/years of the same car. Given how much can change in the cars intent during that time, doing so renders this whole debate limp and impotent.

Basically I think I would sum up K3s point as such:

To be a true sports car there must be two things, design intent and performance. It must have been designed from the ground up as a performance machine, not being based at all on a lesser model of car, and it must perform like one.

In our current Celica example, the original 1970 Celica that Yaggus speaks of qualifies both requirements. A port off the very limited run 2000GT, it was performance driven out of the box. However by the time the late 80s had rolled around, as k3 points out, the Celica had become just another name plate on a lethargic FWD compact. They made the top shelf turbo version but it was never the less just a compact car with a hopped up engine in it. Celicas to this day have followed suit, never being anything more than pedestrian grocery getter with the option of getting some factory performance parts on the sport model. Performance? Perhaps. Design intent? Lacking.

Having a meth smoking turbo model of a rather dull and pathetic car does not make for a sports car. It makes a "tuner car", same as any other POS someone has stuck a bunch of high performance parts onto. Usually these factory tuner cars are pretty good; being faster and have all the pieces working together better than most tuner cars slapped together by the aftermarket but it still makes them tuner cars.

[k3smostwanted]

Originally Posted by Broke_as_****

No it hasn't. I would think it would be hard to argue against the fact that the Celica has strayed very far off its original 70s design intent.

This whole debate seems like a bunch cockswaggling. Everyone seems to be talking about different cars, or at least different models/years of the same car. Given how much can change in the cars intent during that time, doing so renders this whole debate limp and impotent.

Basically I think I would sum up K3s point as such:

To be a true sports car there must be two things, design intent and performance. It must have been designed from the ground up as a performance machine, not being based at all on a lesser model of car, and it must perform like one.

In our current Celica example, the original 1970 Celica that Yaggus speaks of qualifies both requirements. A port off the very limited run 2000GT, it was performance driven out of the box. However by the time the late 80s had rolled around, as k3 points out, the Celica had become just another name plate on a lethargic FWD compact. They made the top shelf turbo version but it was never the less just a compact car with a hopped up engine in it. Celicas to this day have followed suit, never being anything more than pedestrian grocery getter with the option of getting some factory performance parts on the sport model. Performance? Perhaps. Design intent? Lacking.

Having a meth smoking turbo model of a rather dull and pathetic car does not make for a sports car. It makes a "tuner car", same as any other POS someone has stuck a bunch of high performance parts onto. Usually these factory tuner cars are pretty good; being faster and have all the pieces working together better than most tuner cars slapped together by the aftermarket but it still makes them tuner cars.

well said and exactly my point...

as for a 4 door skyline. first of all, shame on nissan...second, i would classify it as a sporty sedan much like an Audi S4 or something of the like, but maybe the adding carrying the exra word "luxury". chaser would be classified as the same maybe even dropping the word sporty.

[Yaggus]

Originally Posted by Broke_as_****

No it hasn't. I would think it would be hard to argue against the fact that the Celica has strayed very far off its original 70s design intent.

This whole debate seems like a bunch cockswaggling. Everyone seems to be talking about different cars, or at least different models/years of the same car. Given how much can change in the cars intent during that time, doing so renders this whole debate limp and impotent.

Basically I think I would sum up K3s point as such:

To be a true sports car there must be two things, design intent and performance. It must have been designed from the ground up as a performance machine, not being based at all on a lesser model of car, and it must perform like one.

In our current Celica example, the original 1970 Celica that Yaggus speaks of qualifies both requirements. A port off the very limited run 2000GT, it was performance driven out of the box. However by the time the late 80s had rolled around, as k3 points out, the Celica had become just another name plate on a lethargic FWD compact. They made the top shelf turbo version but it was never the less just a compact car with a hopped up engine in it. Celicas to this day have followed suit, never being anything more than pedestrian grocery getter with the option of getting some factory performance parts on the sport model. Performance? Perhaps. Design intent? Lacking.

Having a meth smoking turbo model of a rather dull and pathetic car does not make for a sports car. It makes a "tuner car", same as any other POS someone has stuck a bunch of high performance parts onto. Usually these factory tuner cars are pretty good; being faster and have all the pieces working together better than most tuner cars slapped together by the aftermarket but it still makes them tuner cars.

I understand what your saying but most performance cars get pussified somewhat to make the saleable to the general public. Celicas suffered from this mor than most.

However, I still stand by my claim that rally cars are not tuner cars. With them having next to none of the characteristics of their crappier cousins other than the same looks, I feel that they should be treated as a separate car. The manufacturers link the base models of each to try and feed the sales of then to people who would love the have the dreal deal but cant afford it and would be able to live with jsut being able to own a car than looks like the one they want.

Once you have a new side panels of a car, the bonnet, the front bumper, the rear bumper, the engine, the suspension, the brakes, the gearbox, the diff, the exhaust system, the seats, the dash.... It makes it a new car. All of this designed and tested by engineers at toyota to find the best combination of parts to work harmoniously together to achieve the best result on a rally circuit, to me that is sport designed. 300zxs and mx5s are designed to be quick on a circuit track where as GT4s are designed to be fast on a gravel track. Both are sports applications but both require vastly different setups to achieve their goal. Hence why they look and act differently to each other.

Economy? have you seen the economy of any of the other cars you are comparing them to? mx5s are great on econom. MR2s have better economy than gt4s. Good economy is a by product of a well designed and effiecient engine. Be it turbo or V8 both can put out decent HP and still get good economy. The fact that a car is economical is irrelevent to whether or not its a sports car or not. It is just aby product of having a good engine.

[Broke_as_****]

This is where the difference between "pussified" and "just fuckin jacked up POS" comes in. Since the mid 80s, the Celica has been a piece of shit. Still is. Toyota did a bang up job of taking this piece of shit chassis and making something workable out of it for the GT4. Despite that, it's still based off a piece of shit. Can't polish a turd, you know? Thus it falls under my "tuner car" category.

I think one thing that should be pointed out is that being a "tuner car" is not a bad thing at all. Doesn't mean it's a second class sports car, doesn't mean it's slow. It just wasn't designed for performance from the start. And that's okay. It's not a label implied to look down on them, it's simply to draw a distinction. If anything, tuner cars are where it's at. A STi will run with cars twice it's price and still serve as a functional daily driver. How fuckin cool is that?

As a side note, there really doesn't need to be a "rally" classification, as there really isn't a need to break "sports cars" up into their specific pursuits. You are correct Yaggus, rally is just another type of racing.

[AMNES]

Congrats Yaggus!. That car is Pimpin' my wygga. Shure score. BTW i'm back!

[Yaggus]

Just an update on my car...

It came in last week went to pick it up and was just intending on towing it home. Massive dramas with that partially due to the person towing the MR2 had no idea how to do it. The other part of it was that power brakes dont work so good unless the engine is running and given there was a problem with the engine. I did start it up however... god dam that car sounds mean. Cams and headwork with a nice 3" going to dual 2.5 " exhaust sounds evil

Anyway, I didnt really feel like having it running for too long because it has some engine problems. That and it wouldnt hold idle because it had been sitting there too long. After we snapped our tow rope 3 times we called in a favour with a friend of the guy who was driving to towing car and managed to get the MR2 on the back of a car transporter and dropped off at Tristans house for free. Score!!!

First impressions of the car are pretty good. Paintwork is pretty good. A few chips here and there. Nothing too bad. Interioris fucking great. I can only see 2 things that need changing. One is the glove box cover that has quite a few scuffs on it and the other is the piece of plastic behind the door handle on the inside is broken. Other than that the interior is SHMICK!!!

Now onto the unexpected parts... Despite what the seller told me, the car HAS been in an accident. The chips on the rear bumper have red paint glaring out from underneath, there are ripples on the boot floor, the boot is ever so slightly not straight and if you look closely you can see where the paint has been blended on the sides. But that being said, the repair job was of pretty good quality so i am not that worried about it.

First big surprise: Who ever put the engine in had NO CLUE what he was doing. Same goes for the whoever put in the Haltec, probably the same guy... The first clue as to what was wrong was when Tristan (MR2 expert mate) commented that the engine seemed to be sitting lower on closer inspection we found out that THE ENGINE WAS MISSING THE 2 FRONT ENGINE MOUNT BOLTS!!!!! WTF!!! One of the rear engine bolts was also 3/4s the way out too. Also a lot of the stock items were left in when the aftermarket was put in. Like all the stock boost gear was left in even though it had a full aftermarket standalone as well as an Apexi AVCR in it too... Random.

The next and shittiest surprise was when we had a look at the bottom end to confirm all the goodies were in there.... They weren't Bottom end was completely stock. No forged rods, no 2.2L stroker kit. I was, shall we say, not happy at this point. The only saving grace was that the pistons that were in there were pretty hardcore but still...

Now I was wondering, 'ok what else isnt there?' but it was getting late and I had to work the next day so I went home in a pretty shitty mood.

Called Tristan up 2 days later to ask him if he had found anything else out and it turns out that the head work on the engine is the most extensive he has ever seen on a 3s-gte SCORE!!!!!

Anyways, I sent the guy an email saying WTF is the engine and generally8 being not happy. He claimed ignorance and he thought the engine had all the parts in there and he had boought the engine 2nd hand off someone else and was jsut going by what he was told was in there. I emailed him back saying that If he got screwed by someone that that was his problem but I bought the car off him and he had advertised it with the afore mentioned modifications and that they werent there. I told him that I was effectively down $5800 because I didnt have those mods on there anymore. I pointed out that I could sue him for the cost of the mods but I didnt want to have to go down that route. Top be honest I have no idea if i could have sued him and besides that I had no intention of ever bothering with that shit given he lives on the other side of the country. I propesed a compromise and for him to refund part of the cash I gave him for the car in order to cover my costs. Keep in mind I raped him on the inital purchase price anyway. I paid 11k for a car worth easily 18k I was thinking I was lucky to be getting $1000 back from him. Hell, I would have been happy with $50. I was already well ahead, any thing I got back was a bonus. He turns around and emails me say he has just transfered back over $2000!!!! BAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!! FUCK YEAH!!!!!

So that means I got an MR2 in -REALLY- good condition with quite a decent amount of tasty mods for $9000 + shipping!!! Oh I am happy now...

[k3smostwanted]

Originally Posted by Yaggus

Just an update on my car...

It came in last week went to pick it up and was just intending on towing it home. Massive dramas with that partially due to the person towing the MR2 had no idea how to do it. The other part of it was that power brakes dont work so good unless the engine is running and given there was a problem with the engine. I did start it up however... god dam that car sounds mean. Cams and headwork with a nice 3" going to dual 2.5 " exhaust sounds evil

Anyway, I didnt really feel like having it running for too long because it has some engine problems. That and it wouldnt hold idle because it had been sitting there too long. After we snapped our tow rope 3 times we called in a favour with a friend of the guy who was driving to towing car and managed to get the MR2 on the back of a car transporter and dropped off at Tristans house for free. Score!!!

First impressions of the car are pretty good. Paintwork is pretty good. A few chips here and there. Nothing too bad. Interioris fucking great. I can only see 2 things that need changing. One is the glove box cover that has quite a few scuffs on it and the other is the piece of plastic behind the door handle on the inside is broken. Other than that the interior is SHMICK!!!

Now onto the unexpected parts... Despite what the seller told me, the car HAS been in an accident. The chips on the rear bumper have red paint glaring out from underneath, there are ripples on the boot floor, the boot is ever so slightly not straight and if you look closely you can see where the paint has been blended on the sides. But that being said, the repair job was of pretty good quality so i am not that worried about it.

First big surprise: Who ever put the engine in had NO CLUE what he was doing. Same goes for the whoever put in the Haltec, probably the same guy... The first clue as to what was wrong was when Tristan (MR2 expert mate) commented that the engine seemed to be sitting lower on closer inspection we found out that THE ENGINE WAS MISSING THE 2 FRONT ENGINE MOUNT BOLTS!!!!! WTF!!! One of the rear engine bolts was also 3/4s the way out too. Also a lot of the stock items were left in when the aftermarket was put in. Like all the stock boost gear was left in even though it had a full aftermarket standalone as well as an Apexi AVCR in it too... Random.

The next and shittiest surprise was when we had a look at the bottom end to confirm all the goodies were in there.... They weren't Bottom end was completely stock. No forged rods, no 2.2L stroker kit. I was, shall we say, not happy at this point. The only saving grace was that the pistons that were in there were pretty hardcore but still...

Now I was wondering, 'ok what else isnt there?' but it was getting late and I had to work the next day so I went home in a pretty shitty mood.

Called Tristan up 2 days later to ask him if he had found anything else out and it turns out that the head work on the engine is the most extensive he has ever seen on a 3s-gte SCORE!!!!!

Anyways, I sent the guy an email saying WTF is the engine and generally8 being not happy. He claimed ignorance and he thought the engine had all the parts in there and he had boought the engine 2nd hand off someone else and was jsut going by what he was told was in there. I emailed him back saying that If he got screwed by someone that that was his problem but I bought the car off him and he had advertised it with the afore mentioned modifications and that they werent there. I told him that I was effectively down $5800 because I didnt have those mods on there anymore. I pointed out that I could sue him for the cost of the mods but I didnt want to have to go down that route. Top be honest I have no idea if i could have sued him and besides that I had no intention of ever bothering with that shit given he lives on the other side of the country. I propesed a compromise and for him to refund part of the cash I gave him for the car in order to cover my costs. Keep in mind I raped him on the inital purchase price anyway. I paid 11k for a car worth easily 18k I was thinking I was lucky to be getting $1000 back from him. Hell, I would have been happy with $50. I was already well ahead, any thing I got back was a bonus. He turns around and emails me say he has just transfered back over $2000!!!! BAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!! FUCK YEAH!!!!!

So that means I got an MR2 in -REALLY- good condition with quite a decent amount of tasty mods for $9000 + shipping!!! Oh I am happy now...

kinda scandalous but whatever...it is still an MR2.

[DeleriousZ]

owned