supercharger or turbo on sohc?

Tominos · 03-03-2002, 12:29 PM

hi, just wondering what u guys think would be best for my sohc vtec. i got a 97 civic ex. i don't want to run twelve seconds or nothing, i just want something that will smoke gsr's maybe type r's. it'll be stock everything, stock bottom end, internals. so probably can't run too much boost. or should i just forget about the whole thing and swap in a b16. well, thanks for the help.

iLLuCiv99 · 03-03-2002, 02:24 PM

I would drop in a B16 so you have more to work with. With the stock D16 you really cant boost that much, I just think you'd be better off w/ the B16 and maybe a 50 shot

buh_buh · 03-03-2002, 04:01 PM

but with b16 you can't go turbo because the compression is too high. If you do that, and to go turbo, your engine will go boom. So make sure you find the right motor for your needs.

Wants_A_Lude · 03-04-2002, 06:46 PM

buh buh are you sure? Then why are there tons of B16 turbo kits?

Just wandering.

SleeperCivic · 03-04-2002, 08:14 PM

I'm running the Greddy 15G kit and all the extras. Haven't put on the intercooler yet (be here this week) but it runs DAMN STRONG, even at 5psi. Maybe not as good as a larger turbo, but it's CARB legal and it's fast enough for me. If you want to see how fast, go to http://home.satx.rr.com/importvelocity/

That's my homepage. Enjoy.

piscorpio · 03-04-2002, 11:24 PM

It really is dependent on what you want Tominos. If maximum power potential is what you are after the B16 is going to have the greatest potential. However, if you feel you would be satisfied with a bit more power (usually about 40 more hp) then the turbo D16 seems to put out good numbers also. From all my reading, it just seems to get tougher to get power beyond 200hp. Up to this point things can and will get more expensive as the increase in boost will require an increase in internal strength, and in the end a B16 running the same turbo is going to get you more power. Ive been mulling over this decision for a while now, and I have plenty of time, because no matter what the choice, it will cost you a pretty penny. It seems to be the game we all play, striking a balance between budget and performance needs.

By the way SleeperCivic another turbo D16, I love seeing that! Ive been all about finding people who run turbo D's and hearing about their results, it can only help me make my decision. Also, I see by your webpage you have an mp5 wagon also? I know this is off topic, but how do you like it? (IM me if you like, so we dont distract from the thread)

white97ex · 03-05-2002, 07:22 AM

i want to go turbo......hehehe...just like the look of the snail....hahha. i also have a D and am trying to decide whether to turbo it or not. there aren't many high performance imports where i live. so i dont need anything massive. but here lately (even though i dont beleive in the bottle) i've been looking into N2O...anywho.....a 15G isn't an extremely large turbo correct? why not take drift's lead and go stray from the fmic. get something small and incorporate some mr2 water sprayers and stuff like that? just a thought.....then again we may not have enough room in our engine bays for something like that....

mellowboy · 03-05-2002, 02:32 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by buh_buh
but with b16 you can't go turbo because the compression is too high. If you do that, and to go turbo, your engine will go boom. So make sure you find the right motor for your needs.

That is not true. B16 doesn't have that high of a compression compared to the type r's. Its's pretty safe to turbocharge a b16. They also have kits for all b series engines..yes includin type r's. I mean i don't know why ppl put turbos on type r engines when the compression is high. I've seen one black type r turbo and i wanted to go ask him ...why? Its not business anyways.

piscorpio · 03-05-2002, 03:50 PM

If an S2000 can go forced induction, then Im sure a B16 can. High compression and boost working together safely is just a matter of careful tuning.

MatT3T4 · 03-06-2002, 11:23 AM

Are you guys mad?

The B16A is a fucking awesome motor, and it responds to turbochargers exceptionally well. Compression too high?

The higher the compression, the better. A B16A motor is the best Honda motor to turbocharge. It has a near perfect rod:stroke ratio, and the block itself is incredibly strong. You can boost more than 15psi with bone stock internals. So long as you have ample fuel and ignition upgrades, along with a tuning tool to get the perfect a:f ratio, and get the motor dialed in, you are fine. You can make more than 350hp with the stock motor.

Anyway...the D16 motors are still good. You can go with a GReddy kit, modify the piping, and have your fun. I had s 1995 Civic EX with a GReddy kit, and ran 13.3...Like I said before, with the right fuel and ignition, and tuning, you can run a lot of boost on stock Honda motors. I ran 1.0 bar (14.7psi) on mine with nothing more than a head gasket inside.

Check out www.MatT3T4.20m.com and click the Specnicalities link for some good turbo tech, or e-mail me at MatT3T4@aol.com if you want some good information.

P.S.: I have been inspired to update my web page with turbo tech specific to how it pertains to stock Honda motors, and I am about to get started on it now...

mellowboy · 03-06-2002, 12:55 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by MatT3T4
Are you guys mad?

The B16A is a fucking awesome motor, and it responds to turbochargers exceptionally well. Compression too high? The higher the compression, the better.

I believe the lower compression the better.

Stock sir b16's have 10:2:1 i believe so its a safe motor to put turbo in.

MatT3T4 · 03-06-2002, 01:03 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by mellowboy

I believe the lower compression the better. Stock sir b16's have 10:2:1 i believe so its a safe motor to put turbo in.

The higher the compression, the more power the motor will make, the more power the motor will make, the better.

When high compression and boost come together, tuning becomes essential. That is the problem with most turbo Honda enthusiasts...tuning. For the most part, people don't know the first thing about it. That is why you see so many blown motors. The lower the compression, the more room for error you have when tuning...but, that also means, the less power you are going to make on comparative boost levels. On the flipside, the higher the compression, the smaller window of error you have for tuning mistakes...but...the more power you will make, on comparative boost levels.

Even 10.2:1 is high (awesome!)...Take a stock B16A, on 12psi...and compare it to a B16A with a built bottom end using 9.0:1 pistons, on 12psi...That stock B16A is going to kick the built B16A's ass.

The problem with the B18C5 (ITR) motor is not the compression itself, rather, it is the lightweight pistons that it uses. 11.0:1 CR is awesome, you just need good tuning...but on the stock bottom end, the pistons are not made for boost, and are brittle, if you will. If you were to rebuild the B18C5 bottom end...keep the 11.0:1 CR, just use pistons made for boost.

High compression + high boost + great tuning = ONE FAST FUCKING HONDA!

mellowboy · 03-06-2002, 01:20 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by MatT3T4

The higher the compression, the more power the motor will make, the more power the motor will make, the better.

When high compression and boost come together, tuning becomes essential. That is the problem with most turbo Honda enthusiasts...tuning. For the most part, people don't know the first thing about it. That is why you see so many blown motors. The lower the compression, the more room for error you have when tuning...but, that also means, the less power you are going to make on comparative boost levels. On the flipside, the higher the compression, the smaller window of error you have for tuning mistakes...but...the more power you will make, on comparative boost levels.

Even 10.2:1 is high (awesome!)...Take a stock B16A, on 12psi...and compare it to a B16A with a built bottom end using 9.0:1 pistons, on 12psi...That stock B16A is going to kick the built B16A's ass.

The problem with the B18C5 (ITR) motor is not the compression itself, rather, it is the lightweight pistons that it uses. 11.0:1 CR is awesome, you just need good tuning...but on the stock bottom end, the pistons are not made for boost, and are brittle, if you will. If you were to rebuild the B18C5 bottom end...keep the 11.0:1 CR, just use pistons made for boost.

High compression + high boost + great tuning = ONE FAST FUCKING HONDA!

I don't think i agree with you on this one. The stock bottom end can only take so much. High compression to my understanding is that its good for all motor not boost? I have never heard anyone say higher compression is better for boost. Theres this guy that i see driving a rex with a built b18c1 that he lowered the compression ...lets just say he built up his motor and slapped a turbo on there running 18-22 pounds of boost rite there! He's running 11's with no problems watsoever! I only know that built bottom end with lower compression handles the higher boost ...safely.

MatT3T4 · 03-06-2002, 01:31 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by mellowboy

I don't think i agree with you on this one. The stock bottom end can only take so much. High compression to my understanding is that its good for all motor not boost? I have never heard anyone say higher compression is better for boost. Theres this guy that i see driving a rex with a built b18c1 that he lowered the compression ...lets just say he built up his motor and slapped a turbo on there running 18-22 pounds of boost rite there! He's running 11's with no problems watsoever! I only know that built bottom end with lower compression handles the higher boost ...safely.

The stock bottom end can take a lot of boost. Take myself for example: I ran 12.3 on my bone stock B16A on 12psi...This car was my daily driver...all day, every day, my only car. Not only that, but my Mugen ECU raised the rev limiter to 9000rpm...and I took it to that every day. Don't underestimate the power of the B-series motors. A properly tuned STOCK B-series motor can run that pressure that your friend runs on his built motor...just trust me on this one...I've been doing this for years. I've seen bone stock Poormans ITR's (B16A head on a B18C1 shortblock), running 11's on 12psi and slicks. Speed is not about built motors and low compression. Speed is about proper tuning, and the correct turbocharger matched with the motor, suspension, and slicks. $100 says that I can match your buddies time, or even beat it, with a budget $10,000 less than his.

The B-series motors are strong, very strong. They can withstand the pressure that it takes to make more than 350hp, with the stock internals, and the stock compression. The key to dialing in the motor is perfecting your air:fuel ratio. Since the internals are very strong to begin with, your pistons are what your major concern should be. They will be the first thing to let loose if your a:f ratio is off. Once your a:f ratio is dialed in perfectly, your next major concern falls on your cylinder sleeves...but that isn't a concern until you are making about 350hp. Within the tuning of the a:f ratio, your compression will already be accounted for, and taken care of.

I have seen stock B16A's, B18B's, and B18C's pushing more than 20psi!!! The only thing you have to worry about is not running like that for too long...quarter miles bursts are perfectly safe, when your motor is tuned.

mellowboy · 03-06-2002, 05:37 PM

Ok Mat ...damn it i have to agree with you! So let me understand this...The reason they lower compression reliability slightly goes up....agree?if u have stock or high compression, u must tune to be safe....i agree.Tuning is alot of money,and dyno runs are not cheap,lowering compression is a tradeoff...kinda. Since you got me to understand it ...i think i'd take a properly stock internal 15psi TUNED b16, over a forged piston lower compression UNTUNED motor in a heartbeat.If you have a built bottom you don't really have to tune it so its not always necessary. But for maximum efficiency u must tune for highest boost possible with highest reliability.u should tune. it's playing against the odds without tuning and boosting.if u spend $$$$$$ on a built block must $$$$ to take full advantage on tuning.Tuning will produce numbers (dyno& track) as well as protect your investment...bring the reliability factor higher LACK of tuning...and improper fuel management *WILL* kill an engine. Well now i understand that you can boost on a high compression motor.

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