race fuel
godenm
03-15-2005, 08:17 PM
well, its drag strip season again,and i was wondering if any one here has tried any racing fuel such as cam-2 etc in there stock 2.4? i have a new engine almost ready (late may,early june probly) but i want to run my old engine a couple more times before i pull it. i just dont wanna melt any plugs or a piston.i know that race fuel will burn up a 02 sensor,but im not worried about that,its internals that im worried about...ive used cam-2 and vp fuels in v8's,but never in 4's.any info would be greatly appreciated,thanks
noshun
03-15-2005, 08:35 PM
well, its drag strip season again,and i was wondering if any one here has tried any racing fuel such as cam-2 etc in there stock 2.4? i have a new engine almost ready (late may,early june probly) but i want to run my old engine a couple more times before i pull it. i just dont wanna melt any plugs or a piston.i know that race fuel will burn up a 02 sensor,but im not worried about that,its internals that im worried about...ive used cam-2 and vp fuels in v8's,but never in 4's.any info would be greatly appreciated,thanks
Really can't see it adversely affecting the car!
Really can't see it adversely affecting the car!
-Jayson-
03-15-2005, 08:48 PM
uhh correct me if im wrong, but isnt racing fuel nothing more than really high octane gas?
noshun
03-15-2005, 08:59 PM
uhh correct me if im wrong, but isnt racing fuel nothing more than really high octane gas?
Yeah 100 octane or so! Oh that's a point, don't go above 100 to say the 110 fuel as it's leaded and leaves a coating of lead in the valve seats. The stock motor has hardened valves seats so it can use unleaded and it can cause a build up over time although going back to 'normal' gas will get rid of any build up! So to summarize it still probably wont do anything bad!
Yeah 100 octane or so! Oh that's a point, don't go above 100 to say the 110 fuel as it's leaded and leaves a coating of lead in the valve seats. The stock motor has hardened valves seats so it can use unleaded and it can cause a build up over time although going back to 'normal' gas will get rid of any build up! So to summarize it still probably wont do anything bad!
-Jayson-
03-15-2005, 09:45 PM
no but running high octane gas in our cars is pointless unless you have a higher compression ratio. Octane does nothing more than let you compress the gas more before it explodes. It doesnt add HP, run cleaner, burn hotter. It can just be compressed more before it detonates. This is why FI cars run high octane gas. I have to run 93 octane gas. A stock compression cavalier doesnt need anything more than 87 octane. Maybe 89 just to make sure its atleast 87, but anything higher is just a big fat waste of money.
noshun
03-16-2005, 08:08 PM
no but running high octane gas in our cars is pointless unless you have a higher compression ratio. Octane does nothing more than let you compress the gas more before it explodes. It doesnt add HP, run cleaner, burn hotter. It can just be compressed more before it detonates. This is why FI cars run high octane gas. I have to run 93 octane gas. A stock compression cavalier doesnt need anything more than 87 octane. Maybe 89 just to make sure its atleast 87, but anything higher is just a big fat waste of money.
Actually the higher the octane the more progressively the fuel burns, Low octane basically all burns at once and it's like tyring to push a cart a certain distance by giving it one big shove. Higher octane will burns slightly slower and has the effect of pushing the same cart with a little more power for the full distance which you know will heed much better results! If Higher octane fuel only worked for fi cars then why do formula one use like 115 octane? and a ferrari (no turbo models) have a knock sensor that is calibrated for at least 91 octane? The fact is it DOES give an improvement in power and burns cooler! The main reason to use higher octane in conjunction with FI is Detonation which is A LOT more likely to occur with lower octane as it burns too quickly and hotter heating the cylinder more and then when the fresh fuel enters it is more likley to detonate. Beside I can ALWAYS feel the difference when I use 94 octane over 87
Actually the higher the octane the more progressively the fuel burns, Low octane basically all burns at once and it's like tyring to push a cart a certain distance by giving it one big shove. Higher octane will burns slightly slower and has the effect of pushing the same cart with a little more power for the full distance which you know will heed much better results! If Higher octane fuel only worked for fi cars then why do formula one use like 115 octane? and a ferrari (no turbo models) have a knock sensor that is calibrated for at least 91 octane? The fact is it DOES give an improvement in power and burns cooler! The main reason to use higher octane in conjunction with FI is Detonation which is A LOT more likely to occur with lower octane as it burns too quickly and hotter heating the cylinder more and then when the fresh fuel enters it is more likley to detonate. Beside I can ALWAYS feel the difference when I use 94 octane over 87
-Jayson-
03-16-2005, 08:36 PM
cause cars like Ferraris and Formula 1's have high compression. Forced Induction creates high compression. The higher the compression the higher the octane you need. Theirs no reason to put anything more than 89 Octane in a cavalier. I will guarantee it will not give you any noticeable power gains. And the butt Dyno doesnt count. And no it doesnt burn slower or colder.
noshun
03-16-2005, 08:48 PM
cause cars like Ferraris and Formula 1's have high compression. Forced Induction creates high compression. The higher the compression the higher the octane you need. Theirs no reason to put anything more than 89 Octane in a cavalier. I will guarantee it will not give you any noticeable power gains. And the butt Dyno doesnt count. And no it doesnt burn slower or colder.
Seriously! it DOES Burn SLower and it DOES burn cooler!!!!! If not what does it do? Also if it's all down to compression, consider thsi the 132hp Dodge neon is recommended to use 87 octane but the 150hp R/t (same comp ratio wit new exhaust intake extra cam making only another 18 hp) is recommended to take 92 octane!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Seriously! it DOES Burn SLower and it DOES burn cooler!!!!! If not what does it do? Also if it's all down to compression, consider thsi the 132hp Dodge neon is recommended to use 87 octane but the 150hp R/t (same comp ratio wit new exhaust intake extra cam making only another 18 hp) is recommended to take 92 octane!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
-Jayson-
03-16-2005, 09:28 PM
Seriously! it DOES Burn SLower and it DOES burn cooler!!!!! If not what does it do? Also if it's all down to compression, consider thsi the 132hp Dodge neon is recommended to use 87 octane but the 150hp R/t (same comp ratio wit new exhaust intake extra cam making only another 18 hp) is recommended to take 92 octane!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
no offense but show me a credible source that says a Neon R/T requires 92 octane and has the same compression as the base model. I find that seriously hard to believe.
If you've read How Car Engines Work, you know that almost all cars use four-stroke gasoline engines. One of the strokes is the compression stroke, where the engine compresses a cylinder-full of air and gas into a much smaller volume before igniting it with a spark plug. The amount of compression is called the compression ratio of the engine. A typical engine might have a compression ratio of 8-to-1. (See How Car Engines Work for details.)
The octane rating of gasoline tells you how much the fuel can be compressed before it spontaneously ignites. When gas ignites by compression rather than because of the spark from the spark plug, it causes knocking in the engine. Knocking can damage an engine, so it is not something you want to have happening. Lower-octane gas (like "regular" 87-octane gasoline) can handle the least amount of compression before igniting.
The compression ratio of your engine determines the octane rating of the gas you must use in the car. One way to increase the horsepower of an engine of a given displacement is to increase its compression ratio. So a "high-performance engine" has a higher compression ratio and requires higher-octane fuel. The advantage of a high compression ratio is that it gives your engine a higher horsepower rating for a given engine weight -- that is what makes the engine "high performance." The disadvantage is that the gasoline for your engine costs more.
The name "octane" comes from the following fact: When you take crude oil and "crack" it in a refinery, you end up getting hydrocarbon chains of different lengths. These different chain lengths can then be separated from each other and blended to form different fuels. For example, you may have heard of methane, propane and butane. All three of them are hydrocarbons. Methane has just a single carbon atom. Propane has three carbon atoms chained together. Butane has four carbon atoms chained together. Pentane has five, hexane has six, heptane has seven and octane has eight carbons chained together.
It turns out that heptane handles compression very poorly. Compress it just a little and it ignites spontaneously. Octane handles compression very well -- you can compress it a lot and nothing happens. Eighty-seven-octane gasoline is gasoline that contains 87-percent octane and 13-percent heptane (or some other combination of fuels that has the same performance of the 87/13 combination of octane/heptane). It spontaneously ignites at a given compression level, and can only be used in engines that do not exceed that compression ratio.
During WWI, it was discovered that you can add a chemical called tetraethyl lead to gasoline and significantly improve its octane rating. Cheaper grades of gasoline could be made usable by adding this chemical. This led to the widespread use of "ethyl" or "leaded" gasoline. Unfortunately, the side effects of adding lead to gasoline are:
Lead clogs a catalytic converter and renders it inoperable within minutes.
The Earth became covered in a thin layer of lead, and lead is toxic to many living things (including humans).
When lead was banned, gasoline got more expensive because refineries could not boost the octane ratings of cheaper grades any more. Airplanes are still allowed to use leaded gasoline, and octane ratings of 115 are commonly used in super-high-performance piston airplane engines (jet engines burn kerosene, by the way).
Here are some interesting links:
id like you to post a source that says higher octane gas burns colder and slower. This one doesnt say anything about it. Maybe for a reason.
no offense but show me a credible source that says a Neon R/T requires 92 octane and has the same compression as the base model. I find that seriously hard to believe.
If you've read How Car Engines Work, you know that almost all cars use four-stroke gasoline engines. One of the strokes is the compression stroke, where the engine compresses a cylinder-full of air and gas into a much smaller volume before igniting it with a spark plug. The amount of compression is called the compression ratio of the engine. A typical engine might have a compression ratio of 8-to-1. (See How Car Engines Work for details.)
The octane rating of gasoline tells you how much the fuel can be compressed before it spontaneously ignites. When gas ignites by compression rather than because of the spark from the spark plug, it causes knocking in the engine. Knocking can damage an engine, so it is not something you want to have happening. Lower-octane gas (like "regular" 87-octane gasoline) can handle the least amount of compression before igniting.
The compression ratio of your engine determines the octane rating of the gas you must use in the car. One way to increase the horsepower of an engine of a given displacement is to increase its compression ratio. So a "high-performance engine" has a higher compression ratio and requires higher-octane fuel. The advantage of a high compression ratio is that it gives your engine a higher horsepower rating for a given engine weight -- that is what makes the engine "high performance." The disadvantage is that the gasoline for your engine costs more.
The name "octane" comes from the following fact: When you take crude oil and "crack" it in a refinery, you end up getting hydrocarbon chains of different lengths. These different chain lengths can then be separated from each other and blended to form different fuels. For example, you may have heard of methane, propane and butane. All three of them are hydrocarbons. Methane has just a single carbon atom. Propane has three carbon atoms chained together. Butane has four carbon atoms chained together. Pentane has five, hexane has six, heptane has seven and octane has eight carbons chained together.
It turns out that heptane handles compression very poorly. Compress it just a little and it ignites spontaneously. Octane handles compression very well -- you can compress it a lot and nothing happens. Eighty-seven-octane gasoline is gasoline that contains 87-percent octane and 13-percent heptane (or some other combination of fuels that has the same performance of the 87/13 combination of octane/heptane). It spontaneously ignites at a given compression level, and can only be used in engines that do not exceed that compression ratio.
During WWI, it was discovered that you can add a chemical called tetraethyl lead to gasoline and significantly improve its octane rating. Cheaper grades of gasoline could be made usable by adding this chemical. This led to the widespread use of "ethyl" or "leaded" gasoline. Unfortunately, the side effects of adding lead to gasoline are:
Lead clogs a catalytic converter and renders it inoperable within minutes.
The Earth became covered in a thin layer of lead, and lead is toxic to many living things (including humans).
When lead was banned, gasoline got more expensive because refineries could not boost the octane ratings of cheaper grades any more. Airplanes are still allowed to use leaded gasoline, and octane ratings of 115 are commonly used in super-high-performance piston airplane engines (jet engines burn kerosene, by the way).
Here are some interesting links:
id like you to post a source that says higher octane gas burns colder and slower. This one doesnt say anything about it. Maybe for a reason.
noshun
03-16-2005, 09:37 PM
no offense but show me a credible source that says a Neon R/T requires 92 octane and has the same compression as the base model. I find that seriously hard to believe.
id like you to post a source that says higher octane gas burns colder and slower. This one doesnt say anything about it. Maybe for a reason.
1. the owners manual on the neon says so! DaimlerChrylser seems a pretty good source to me!
2. How stuff Works isn't exactly 'in-depth' just looking at the title shows that! otherwise it would be 'high octane fuel explained'! This is something I have known for a Very Long time and will try to locate the source. I know this for a fact seeing as I have studied pretty much every aspect of cars and their working and drew a diag explaining how the reciprocating internal combustion engine works when I was about 10! now 22 I think I would have picked up a 'few' things since then! Also that exeprt said that the comp ratio determines what octane needs to be used but never said anything about using a higher octane fuel tha needed would not heed improvements! That seems to be an assumption of yours! The reason for dodge saying to put the two different fuels in the two different cars that ONLY have a different head motor wise is due to the small power difference! With an intake, cat-back and high octane fuel the base neon is right on the R/T's heels!
id like you to post a source that says higher octane gas burns colder and slower. This one doesnt say anything about it. Maybe for a reason.
1. the owners manual on the neon says so! DaimlerChrylser seems a pretty good source to me!
2. How stuff Works isn't exactly 'in-depth' just looking at the title shows that! otherwise it would be 'high octane fuel explained'! This is something I have known for a Very Long time and will try to locate the source. I know this for a fact seeing as I have studied pretty much every aspect of cars and their working and drew a diag explaining how the reciprocating internal combustion engine works when I was about 10! now 22 I think I would have picked up a 'few' things since then! Also that exeprt said that the comp ratio determines what octane needs to be used but never said anything about using a higher octane fuel tha needed would not heed improvements! That seems to be an assumption of yours! The reason for dodge saying to put the two different fuels in the two different cars that ONLY have a different head motor wise is due to the small power difference! With an intake, cat-back and high octane fuel the base neon is right on the R/T's heels!
-Jayson-
03-16-2005, 10:50 PM
im not doubting your credibility. I know you know your shit when it comes to cars. But i still stand by my beliefe that higher octane fuel doesnt create more power in an engine that was designed for low octane fuel. And id really like to see an owners manual of a R/T that says to use 92 octane. And looking into the R/T, the R/T isnt made anymore to best of my knowledge. The 132HP engine is a 2.0L SOHC engine, the R/T Engine was a 2.4L Dohc engine. I highly doubt they had the same compression. But do know for a fact that the R/T used the 2.4L DOHC and that the 132HP engine your talking about is a 2.0L SOHC engine.
4dr92cavi4cyl
03-17-2005, 01:16 PM
NOSHUN, you're 22? I've got you beat by two, but you know more sh!t than I, I always wanted to see what would happen if I ran 110 octane in my 2.2, but was afraid I'd damage the motor, can't afford to put another 2.2 in it. So you are saying it won't hurt anything?
-Jayson-
03-17-2005, 01:19 PM
It Wont Do Anything!
noshun
03-17-2005, 08:05 PM
It Wont Do Anything!
the Neon R/T was a 2.0 not a 2.4 the 2.4 was in the Pt Cruiser only and is now used in the Srt-4! I had a neon Le and came very close to buying a neon R/T that was used for promo pursposes at the Toronto Molson Indy and It looked almost Identical under the hood and the only thing that made me buy th le instead of the R/T was the $1000 cdn difference in insurance! I was a big Neon fan when I had it a know quite a lot about them, well I did! forgotten a lot of it! Was a member of NeonCanada for a bit but not my car anymore!
4dr92, just make sure it's not leaded It will murder your cat! do it and then you can tell us if YOU noticed a difference like I do! but I'll be putting 100 Octane in in the next couple of months at the track! Maybe I'll get some time slips for 94 octane and 100 octane
the Neon R/T was a 2.0 not a 2.4 the 2.4 was in the Pt Cruiser only and is now used in the Srt-4! I had a neon Le and came very close to buying a neon R/T that was used for promo pursposes at the Toronto Molson Indy and It looked almost Identical under the hood and the only thing that made me buy th le instead of the R/T was the $1000 cdn difference in insurance! I was a big Neon fan when I had it a know quite a lot about them, well I did! forgotten a lot of it! Was a member of NeonCanada for a bit but not my car anymore!
4dr92, just make sure it's not leaded It will murder your cat! do it and then you can tell us if YOU noticed a difference like I do! but I'll be putting 100 Octane in in the next couple of months at the track! Maybe I'll get some time slips for 94 octane and 100 octane
-Jayson-
03-17-2005, 08:58 PM
ok your right about it being the 2.0L i talked to a kid who owned one and he said it was a 2.4L. . idiot. Anways the reason for the premium fuel is it has a new cam shaft.
check it out here found a good sit about the Neon R/T
http://www.allpar.com/neon/neonrt.html
check it out here found a good sit about the Neon R/T
http://www.allpar.com/neon/neonrt.html
noshun
03-17-2005, 09:03 PM
ok your right about it being the 2.0L i talked to a kid who owned one and he said it was a 2.4L. . idiot. Anways the reason for the premium fuel is it has a new cam shaft.
check it out here found a good sit about the Neon R/T
http://www.allpar.com/neon/neonrt.html
that's annoying it doesn't say why higher octane! Must have a f8ck load of lift, but then surely it would make more power?!? God Damn! I'm glad I've got the z24 anyhow the bottm end torque on the neonwas atrocious! My 1.1 Ford Fiesta had better bottm end torque for it's weight!! 100% serious! the neon couldn't pull itself in 1st at idle without stalling unlike the fiesta! It annoyed me in the neon! The Z24 is faster and better looking anyways! The steering wheel is really skinny to and when i get i it now compared to the fat thing in the cav it feels like i'm steering with a thin-crust pizza! Although there is an SRT-4 in my dream garage (far from stock though!)
check it out here found a good sit about the Neon R/T
http://www.allpar.com/neon/neonrt.html
that's annoying it doesn't say why higher octane! Must have a f8ck load of lift, but then surely it would make more power?!? God Damn! I'm glad I've got the z24 anyhow the bottm end torque on the neonwas atrocious! My 1.1 Ford Fiesta had better bottm end torque for it's weight!! 100% serious! the neon couldn't pull itself in 1st at idle without stalling unlike the fiesta! It annoyed me in the neon! The Z24 is faster and better looking anyways! The steering wheel is really skinny to and when i get i it now compared to the fat thing in the cav it feels like i'm steering with a thin-crust pizza! Although there is an SRT-4 in my dream garage (far from stock though!)
-Jayson-
03-17-2005, 09:17 PM
yeah a SRT4 would be sexy. I dont care if its still a neon, its a neon with the respect of a LS1.
noshun
03-17-2005, 09:18 PM
yeah a SRT4 would be sexy. I dont care if its still a neon, its a neon with the respect of a LS1.
Ya-ha! would be black but 1st thing! would remove the gay wing for a kaminari evo style with carbon blade!
Ya-ha! would be black but 1st thing! would remove the gay wing for a kaminari evo style with carbon blade!
-Jayson-
03-17-2005, 09:19 PM
yeah that wing is pretty gay, but i love the front ends on them.
Classicrocjunkie
03-17-2005, 09:22 PM
I loce St. Apttay's dayy... mAn iev had o ne too mnay Beers.
noshun
03-17-2005, 09:22 PM
indeed! they rip up the america rally too! they come in faster than a lot of group 'n' imprezas and evo and stay FWD they only slightly get beaten by th open glass impreza and evos that top 400hp! it's like about 25 seconds slower for a 3 stage rally! makes no sense on paper!!!
noshun
03-17-2005, 09:23 PM
I loce St. Apttay's dayy... mAn iev had o ne too mnay Beers.
what's that you've had on too many queers?
what's that you've had on too many queers?
Classicrocjunkie
03-17-2005, 09:41 PM
what's that you've had on too many queers?
noe too manyt oasts for th9s kid. Somthing lkie uhhh 12n ow.
noe too manyt oasts for th9s kid. Somthing lkie uhhh 12n ow.
-Jayson-
03-17-2005, 09:57 PM
i gave up beligerant drinking when i got my drinking and driving ticket, its amazing what a night in jail and 2 years of prohbation will do to your social life.
Classicrocjunkie
03-17-2005, 10:41 PM
i gave up beligerant drinking when i got my drinking and driving ticket, its amazing what a night in jail and 2 years of prohbation will do to your social life.
Well i haev sobered upsome. This is a private party at my houes. Everyone is spend'n the night and keys have been taking away from everyone and locked in the personal safe till morning. So no onec an leave unless picked up. Just one of my rules i have persoalyl
Well i haev sobered upsome. This is a private party at my houes. Everyone is spend'n the night and keys have been taking away from everyone and locked in the personal safe till morning. So no onec an leave unless picked up. Just one of my rules i have persoalyl
-Jayson-
03-17-2005, 11:01 PM
if u have a party at your house, why are you on here?
Classicrocjunkie
03-18-2005, 05:50 PM
if u have a party at your house, why are you on here?
I have a cable modem and its always online. I was also showing someone a turbo cav vid i posted a week or so ago. So i was just passing on. Thus i only posted like 3 times last night.
I have a cable modem and its always online. I was also showing someone a turbo cav vid i posted a week or so ago. So i was just passing on. Thus i only posted like 3 times last night.
KJRich
03-18-2005, 08:35 PM
Only 3? That is like a new low for you. :wink: :p
Classicrocjunkie
03-18-2005, 09:42 PM
Only 3? That is like a new low for you. :wink: :p
I know.. lol.. yesterday was a special occasion along with a few other days. I know i'm over 10 for today atleast.
I know.. lol.. yesterday was a special occasion along with a few other days. I know i'm over 10 for today atleast.
noshun
03-18-2005, 10:50 PM
I know.. lol.. yesterday was a special occasion along with a few other days. I know i'm over 10 for today atleast.
Those were the days! I can't remeber the last time I actually kept count of what I drank! BTW 10 American beers is bugger all! Not only do we have Molson Canadian 6.0 up here but in england it'as generally around 5.5% volume! 10 Cans of Stella would f*ck you right up my son!
Those were the days! I can't remeber the last time I actually kept count of what I drank! BTW 10 American beers is bugger all! Not only do we have Molson Canadian 6.0 up here but in england it'as generally around 5.5% volume! 10 Cans of Stella would f*ck you right up my son!
Classicrocjunkie
03-19-2005, 07:50 PM
I've been to germany once while my brother was stationed there. German lager is gross but OMG, i think that will top your english beer. I don't do this all the time, just once in a blue moon.
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