Used Saturn

Down the street from me someone is selling a '95 Saturn SL1 for $550. The body is in nice shape as is the interior and the engine seems good too. Kelly Blue Book says it's worth about $2000. The only problem is it needs a new windshield and it has 173,000 miles on it. The person told me it also burns about one quirt of oil a month. Would you think this would be OK to drive for a year or so? How much would a wind shield cost?

I don't know how good of a deal that is, but I can tell you I paid $1400 for my 1993 Saturn SL1, manual tranny w/ac. It had 180,000 on it, and I think it was a fair deal.

A windshield might be found for under $100 at a local juckyard, if you want to put it in yourself. I use a guitar string.

It's quite tempting since I need a car soon since my '94 Geo Metro finally died. It's got working AC, automatic tranny, new plugs, tape, and a new master cylinder. The only big reservation I have about it are the miles it has on it.

how many miles does it take to burn one quart?

hope you can find a junkyard that doesn't know how valuable a saturn winshield is. see those little sharp curves in the corner? sharper then most cars, and not easy to make ether. new from a dealership i think the windshield would be around $600, not to mention the cost of install.

I called some junk yards around here and the cheapest I was able to find was $125 plus $90 for install. The first place I called said around $590 for the glass and $100 for install :eek:

I'm not sure how many miles it takes to burn quart, she said she had it for about six months. When I opened the trunk, there were five empty quarts and one half way through. Not sure how honest she's being though. It must be a hell of a lot better than my Metro. That little three cylinder was burning and loosing one quart per week, and I only drove it about 200 miles a week.

What should I look for at this point? When I started it up, it idled at a little above 1000 cold and when it warmed up it went down to about 980 I'd say. When I put the car in reverse, there is a slight rattling noise. I think it might be the exaust pipe rattling or something, atleast that's what it sounds like. It only makes the noise in that gear.

idle speed sounds fine, not great, but nothing to worry about. the "normal" s-seires burns 1 qt/ 2000 miles. i know ways to make it better if its lower then that.

rattles can be a pain to find, in your case exhaust and engine mounts(there are 4) would be the two most likey causes i think. if the rattle noise is stronger in the cab then outside, my guess would be exhaust. is this a auto or manual? if auto, any 'slamming" into reverse? any 'slamming' into drive?

the only other thing i would want to see is service records. be sure everything was done at 3months/3000miles. saturns should not be pushed past the service intervals, then you get problems like burning oil.

It's an automatic and no, there is no slamming into forward or reverse. I talked to the person selling it and she said that she was a little overdue with the oil, but she also said it was burning some anyway. I checked it and it was pretty dirty.

I've decided to take it. I'm going to pick it up later tonight after I get it registered and a temperary inspection sticker. First thing I'm going to do is change the oil. Should I do the same with the tranny fluid?

What should the idel be at?

a common problem is they install the oil filter wrong, and then oil leaks down onto the exhaust pipe and burns from the heat. hopefully that is your problem.

good to hear you bought it.

thats actully not that common on saturns, compared to other causes. check the service records for your answer to the trans fuild, unless you do start to feel a slamming, then i'll tell you what to do. idle should be 700-800, mine is 900-1000, i don't mind.

keep me posted about the oil life

I couldn't get it on Friday like I would've liked, the DMV made me fill out a few more forms and failed to tell me they were closing in five minutes :banghead: . At this point I'm going to have to wait until Tuesday before I can really do anything. I've got an oil change, air cleaner, plugs, and wires all waiting in the garage when I actually get it home. Thanks for the help so far, I'll keep you posted when I can start messing around under the hood.

I drove the Saturn home today and now it is starting to show some problems, well just one critical problem. The tranny kinda hesitates in second gear. If you watch the tachometer, you will see it kinda bounce around until it actually shifts into third. It's not too terrible but I'm not sure if this is a precurser to the tranny kicking the bucket. Would the fluid being 'old' have anything to do with this maybe?

The other problem is the seal around the front passenger door and the driver side door both leak in the same spot. I'm not sure if it was because of the water pressure at the car wash or what not, but it's something that should be taken care of no less.

One more thing, should the radiator fan always be spinning? Even when I first start it up cold it's spinning.

new tranny fluid may help, but does it feel like a extra shift between 2nd and 3rd? thats another unique thing about saturns. most other cars the torque converter clutch locks after 4th, for us, it locks between 2nd and 3rd. this means a rougher ride, but a little more power. again this isn't a 'slam' is it?

there are too places that commonly leak, both are talked about on this thread. wolfman talks about one, i talk about the other.

http://www.saturnfans.com/forums/showthread.php3?s=&threadid=36267

the fan should not always spin, is the A/C on? that will kick on the fan. any SES light?

anyway you should also replace the Engine coolent temp sensor with the OEM peice from saturn, they were redesigned a few years back and work better now, this may fix your fan problem.

check the service records to see how old the fuel filter is.

The tranny doesn't slam or anything, it shifts smoothly into each gear. It's just that in second gear it seems to get to about 2500 RPM's and then the tach will kinda dip down a little and then it will go up to a little past 3000 maybe and then shift fine. To answear your questions, yes it does feel like an extra gear between 2nd and 3rd.

The A/C is not on, but the fan is always spinning. Before I bought the car, the girl said that some work was done with the radiator and the fan was replaced at some point. No there are no lights on. Where can the coolent temp senser be located and how much will a new one cost from Saturn?

I just got done chaning the oil. Why did Saturn decide to make sure that when you are removing the oil filter that a huge mess has to be made? Anyway, when I was under there I took a closer look at the radiator and I don't even think that the fan that is in there now was for a Saturn. The top is bulted in about four inches behind the hood latch, and the bottom of it is just tied on to the car using wire. It has a GM logo on it as well and I'm just assuming that it's rigged in there and the fan may be hard wired to a power source. Is Saturn owned by GM or are they a seperate company? I keep hearing different things.

saturn was orginally its own company owned by GM, had access to GM resources, used some GM methods, but didn't use any GM parts, it had a unique engine, transmission, and body style. Saturn was an experiment by GM to fight import car markers, namey Honda. i think if just the average joe smoe made a car in his garage, it would be a saturn. i like to think of saturn as GM's bastard child. over the last few years, its more and more just becoming a division of GM. the uniqueness of saturn is fading. the engines, trans, and bodys are GM parts, shared with the other branches (the ION is the same as the caviler and sunfire). lots of people say saturn died in 2002, when the S-series was discontined. in 2005, the new RELAY will be the first saturn without dentless plastic side panels.

ok, enough of my whinning.

sounds like the fan is hot wired to me. for the 95s the fan should be between the raditor and the exhaust manifold, some earlier models had the fan infront of the raditor(they don't work as well). is there a part number on the fan?(should be 8 digits)

heres the ECT - $15 from saturn only, don't go to a auto parts store

http://www.saturnfans.com/forums/showthread.php3?s=&threadid=24003

the techs of that forum may be able to help your trans too.

OK, I had some problems trying to get it started hot today. I was going to a few places, and at two different times the car would just refuse to start. I drove maybe 15 miles and then it sat in a parking lot for about five minutes and when I went to start it, it wouldn't. After three attempts in five minute intervals, I got it going the forth try. The forth try it spuddered a little bit until I pressed on the gas then it started right up and idled just fine. I repeated the same thing the second time it happend. Is the computer screwing with the engine? Vapor lock? Fuel pump? It was fairly warm today, but the temperature gage never went above where it normally stays, which is about 1/4 of the way. It is also the first time out after I changed the oil.

Other than the hard starting today, I've had no other problems at all with it. Any idea about what's up? Thanks for the help already contributed by the way :smile:

the hard starting and low temp reading(should be closer to 1/2) are both signs of a bad ECT

I replaced the sensor this morning and now it starts hot just fine :)

I'm still not going any where near 1/2 of the way on the temp gauge. Could this possibly be because the fan is always on? I'll try and get some pictures up tomorrow of the radiator and other stuff.

may be, don't forget to see if you can find a part number on the fan

A friend of mine let me use some his webspace so I can post some images. There was a recall sticker on the top of the radiator fan. I searched for it on Google and found the fan was originally from a '94 Oldsmobile Cutlass Ciera Cruiser. The link below will show all of the images I took. If you don't have a pop-up blocker, prepare to get pissed.

http://rantbitch.0catch.com/Saturn.htm

The first images is just an overview of the engine. The second is showing how the top of the radiator is bolted in. The third is an image taken from on top of the valve cover looking at the fan. The forth is from underneith, showing how the fan is wired in.

yep, thats not right, but if it works, it works(besure the fan is blowing towards the engine, not towards the front of the car.)

to get the thing running right, you are going to need to trace the wiring. also pull the cooling fan fuse and relay, see if the fan still works. see if there are any loose connectors or wiring near the fan.

Yup, the fan is blowing toward the engine (I thought this was kind of strange at first). Anyway, I would like to get it working properly. It'll have to wait until the weekend though, I have to make use of it during the week. I don't want to screw something up and only have one night to fix it, you know? With the engine running as cold as it is now would I be burning fuel effieciantly?

the car runs the most effective in closed loop mode. open loop mode is used for start-up. closed loop mode kicks in when the O2 sensor reaches 600F. so it will effect it some, i don't think by that much. i bet the new ECT gave you better gas mileage.

start looking at the wiring, tell me how its hooked up, check the things i said in the last post, maybe take a picture or two, and i'll try to tell you what to do.

Will do. Like I said before, I'd like to wait until this weekend so I have some f-up time to work with. I'll get some more images and such probably Friday night or Saturday afternoon. I bought a Haynes service manual and it's got some wiring diagrams and such in it. Should be helpful :) . I don't know what I'd be doing at this point without the help from this forum. Thanks a lot.

you think i'm good? check out the forums on saturnfans.com

the haynes manual has good wiring diagrams, if you can see anything abnormal before friday, it will give us a head start.

I have. These forums and the ones of Saturnfans are great. It's nice to get some free support from people who actually have hands on experience with Saturns.

Should all of the stuff on the radio light up? The only thing that is lit is the volume nob and the nobs for the treble, bass, and balance. It's a tad annoying to have to 'feel' around the radio to find the right buttons in the dark and not knowing what stations you are tunned to.

there are several small lights inside the radio, pain in the ass to change. one of the bulbs on the 91-94s can't be change i think.

after you get the radio out of the dash, you haft to take it apart to get to the bulbs

Sorry I couldn't get this done over the weekend, some stuff came up. Anyway, I took a closer look at everything with the fan and it's pretty rigged in there. The wires go from the fan to a relay that was rigged in there from a Nissan, and then one of the wires goes to a fuse (fuel injector or something?) in the fuse box under the hood. There is also one wire that was just cut and left behind. The link has some pictures of what I'm talking about.

Obviously it's a bit difficult to determine what is best on your end since you don't have physical access to the car, but I think I'm leaning a bit towards, if it ain't broke, don't fix it. I don't really know if there is really a problem with the engine being as cool as it is all the time, especially during the winter. I'm in upstate NY and it can get pretty cold here.

One more thing, what kind of plugs should I use? I bought some Champions and when I was inspecting them today, one of the little bastards broke in two in the socket. I put the old ones back in and it actually idles and runs better than it did with the new ones in there. The old ones are Bosch Platinum by the way, I thought Saturns didn't really like them. I'd hate to go to the dealership, they'll probably charge me $4 a piece...

Silly me, I forgot to add the images. They arn't the best views in the world, ask me to take more if needed. The first one is a picture of the relay that was stuck in there. The second is the wire that is tapped off of one of the fuses in the fuse box, and the last one is the cut wire. It is just behind the transmision dip stick and goes down into a a bunch of other wires in a plastic tube.

http://rantbitch.0catch.com/rigged.htm

don't use platiums, try to find some NGK V-power. if your local parts store don't have them, SPSwebpage.com does.

so as it stands your saturn has a oldsmobile fan with nissan wiring? ok then....

just took a look under my hood to trace the wires -

two thick wires(blank and black/pink) should be connected to the fan motor.
those two wires head to the A/C and join together with those wires
they then head to the passinger side headlight
all the wires exit the wire coating and go off everywhere, including a ground splice.
some of the wires enter another coating that head over the radiator to the fuse block.

if you could take a picture of the wiring harness behind the headlight, it may help. running to cold can make the oil to thick, and yes, i know of new york winters, at that cold, you do not want the fan running.

The way it is rigged right now, it completely bypasses the harnesses and the fuse box. I started peeling back some of the plastic piping and unravaling all of the electrical tape and found that some wires have been sliced up.

There were three wires wrapped in that went twords the fan; red, yellow/ green, and black. The red wire breaks away and then goes to the O2 sensor. The black wire (I'm guessing is just a ground) get burried in with another harness behind the transmission dipstick. Then, there is a wire that was originally green but then someone tied a yellow wire to it and that wire goes to the relay. This is the wire where the fan draws its power. There was a green wire in the harness where the black one is that was cut. I figured that was where the green wire originally came from. I pulled the yellow/ green wire from the relay and connected it to the cut green wire that was sticking out of the harness. The fan did not kick on and will only come on when I turn the A/C on, then it won't shut off. The temperature of the car went a little over the half way mark, and the fan would not kick on. I shut the car off and rewired it the way it was.

I was only messing with things out there for an hour or so and didn't really get elbow deep with things, but this is what I found so far. I drew up a diagram of what everything looks like. I couldn't locat my multimeter, so I couldn't get voltages of all of the wires that are in there. I'll look some more tomorrow.

http://rantbitch.0catch.com/diagram.htm

The service manual I bought doesn't have any diagrams for how the fan is hooked up, so I'm not totally sure what's what.

you may have found the right wire! the fan will stay on for about 30 seconds to a minute after the A/C is turned off. and my wiring diagram shows a dark green/white wire that controls the relay by the PCM closing the ground.

so this is what i think, the fan should not be hooked directly to the PCM, it will burn the PCM up. i can give you a wiring diagram to fix it, but first i would need some voltage readings.

battery neg to loose green key off
battery neg to loose green A/C on
battery pos to loose green key off
battery pos to loose green A/C on
battery neg to green/yellon fan
battery pos to green/yellon fan
can you also get the terminal numbers off the relay for each wire?

i think we almost have this solved!

The rigged relay looks like this:


http://files.automotiveforums.com/gallery/watermark.php?file=503/196713Relay.jpg

battery neg to loose green key off: 0
battery neg to loose green A/C on: 13.66 (once the engine warmed up it went down to around 13.52)
battery pos to loose green key off: 0
battery pos to loose green A/C on: ...
battery neg to green/yellow fan: 0

Call me stupid, but I don't think I'm doing this right. When you say battery postive to loose green A/C on, won't that melt something? It's basically putting 12 and 12 against each other from what I can tell.

no it won't, remember a voltage meter measures the difference of energy. 12 against 12 will just read 0 volt, don't beleave me? put both test leads on the battery pos.

now call me stupid, but who the hell wired that relay? is it just me or is the relay coil always energized?

so i think i know what needs to be done, but just to double check first, all i need is

battery neg to loose green key on A/C off:
battery pos to loose green A/C on:
battery pos to loose green key on A/C off:
remember to wait a minute after you turn the A/C off to retest

Jesus, this is turning into one problem after another. Today when I was driving to school, the engine just about stalled and the SES light came on. Everything was fine until I passed someone. I just about floored it to get around the person and when I turned back into the lane, the engine started to buck a little bit but went back to normal after a few seconds. Then about a mile down the road the SES light came on. When I started to slow down at a stop light I heard the exaust pipe slamming in the back (it needs new mounts and it usually vibrates anyway, but this was new). I looked down at the tachometer and watched it dip all the way passed 500RPM's and then spring up as the car downshifted. I was still moving at about 30MPH when it was doing this too. When I came close to a stop the car started shaking pretty bad, so I put it in neutral and pressed on the gas, it sputtered for a few seconds and then revved up to 3500RPM's and stayed there. I let off the gas and it idled normal After this, the car ran just fine but the SES light was still on. When I drove it home today, the SES light was not on and the car was running just fine, like nothing had ever happend. I did also baby it a little on the way home too. This isn't the fuel pump starting to go is it? Or was there just some crap in the tank or something?

I looked in the Haynes manual and it had a way of getting a diagnostic to run without tools, but didn't give any flash codes in the book anywhere. After the usual flash, it put out 3 flashes then 2. This was the only code stored.

I got the other voltages you asked, they were all 0.

32. EGR
quite common on saturns, sometimes just cleaning it fixes to problem. just take it off and spray sensor-safe carb and choke cleaner in there til all the gunk comes out and the pintle moves freely. the gasket can most times be reused, or you can buy a new gasket at the dealership for about $5.

check page 6-4 in the hanyes- here they are anyway -
Diagnostic Codes
11. Transaxle Codes present
12. Diagnostic System Check
13. Oxygen sensor, circuit open or not ready
14. CTS circuit, out of range high
15. CTS circuit, out of range low
17. PCM fault, pullup resistor
19. 6x signal fault, no 6x signal between reference pulses
21. TPS circuit, out of range high
22. TPS circuit, out of range low
23. ATS circuit, out range low
24. VSS circuit, no signal
25. ATS circuit, out or range high
26. Quad Driver output fault
32. EGR system fault
33. MAP sensor circuit, out of range high
34. MAP sensor circuit, out of range low
35. IAC valve, rpm out of range
41A EST circuit open
41B EST circuit shorted
42A Bypass circuit grounded
42B Bypass circuit open
42C Bypass circuit shorted
41. EST bypass, open or shorted
42. EST bypass, open or shorted
43. ECS (knock sensor) circuit open or shorted
44. Oxygen sensor indicates system lean
45. Oxygen sensor indicates system rich
46. Power steering pressure switch circuit, open
49. Idle rpm out of limit high (vacuum leak)
51. PCM memory error
55. A/D converter error in PCM
81. ABS message fault (1993 vehicles with TCS)
82. PCM internal communication fault

The ERG looks pretty new. I was just watching the SES light blink and the Haynes manual didn't show any way of decoding it. Anyway, everything seems to be OK now (knock on wood).

What do I need to do to get the fan running properly now?

ok, whats wierd is that loose green wire should be ground side switching(then battery pos to loose green A/C on would be 12). this should work, maybe not perfictly but the fan will come on the A/C. the top is the old diagram, the bottom is mine. just change one wire.

http://files.automotiveforums.com/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=28085&;

At what point should the fan kick on? When I was testing the wires and such, it would only come on when I turned the A/C on. I watched the temp gauge go just over the half way mark and it never came on. I shut the engine off before it could go any further. I read over at Saturnfans that some people had thier fans kicking on at the 3/4 mark. Isn't that a little hot?

the fan does kick in on the hotter side. see if the fan turns on in diagonois mode(paper clip trick) if it does, then the fan should work when over heating too, if it doesn't then that little green wire doesn't do the right thing, and we will have to try a different aproach(seeing if the connections in the orignal fan relay socket work, then tapping in there.)

It works. :) Now I just need to get some better wire for the long term. Couldn't I just connect the loose green to the yellow/ green directly? The green wire seems to be running off of the real relay.

you may be right, i don't know why the hacker who wired this thing up would do that. pull the real fan relay in the fuse block and see what happen, if the fan dies, i would confirm with the multimeter then go ahead.

Yup, the fan won't work when I have either the real relay unplugged or have the fuse pulled. I checked the voltage and it's just shy of 12V. The rigged relay was putting out about 13V. Think it's safe to directly connect the loose green and the yellow/ green permenetly?

I wonder if the guy working on it didn't realize the fan kicked on on the hot side and just thought that something was wrong. Thus, the 'new' fan and the hacked wires so it was always on. I'm not really liking the fan coming on at the 3/4 mark. I might rig in that switch that was talked about over on Satunrfans.

sound good to me, i was even thinking about recommending that switch but i didn't want to until the wiring problem was solved.

i can't beleave i didn't noticed this before. are you missing the splash sheild and air dam below the radiator?

I guess so. There's no shield of any kind under the radiator.

well it should have this thing - http://www.autozone.com/images/cds/gif/medium/0900823d80199ec8.gif

it redirects air flow to the engine compartment, some overheating problems are do to hitting curbs and ripping the bottom part off.

Nope, there's nothing like that under the radiator. I was able to get a look at another '95 SL1 the other day with the stock cooling system, and there's nothing in common between the the stock one and the one I have, in terms of the air dam and the splash guard. Is this something I should really be concerned about?

I have the fan wired the correct way this time (loose green to yellow/ green). The car is staying pretty cool and the fan hasn't needed to come on. It was been pretty cool here the last few days so I probably won't get a real feel for how it will work until Spring.

for the time being (winter coming) i wouldn't worry unless more heating problems arrive.