Evolution

Okay, I'm just bringing the argument over from "If there's a heaven" (http://216.74.123.150/vbulletin/showthread.php?threadid=710&perpage=10&pagenumber=1), since it seemed to get into a debate about evolution...not heaven. So, what do you think about evolution?

It's great! Without it, we wouldn't be here. It has also caused major problems like the development of Nuclear Warfare. But we're still here so it hasn't been all that bad. Ferraris also came out of evolution so I'm all for it.

My opinion has already been amply stated in "If there's a heaven..."

And if you're going to get on this subject, let's draw an important distinction to the debate right now. There are two parts to evolution, the fact and the theory.

There is no disupting the FACT of evolution, that things change over time. Anyone who actually believes things have been the way they are now since the beginning of time should be a member of the Flat Earth Society.

The THEORY of evolution is what we should be commenting on, and in that I submit only one argument. In the whole of scientific discovery, no one theory has challenged religious belief so much as Darwin's theory. Yet in well over 150 years of scientific learning, no one person has been able to disprove this theory. Of course if Darwin had lived in the 15th century we wouldn't even be debating this, since he would have been pronounced heretical and burned at the stake. But beyond all that, I just want to know what the hell creationists think fossils are :).

I hope evolution will make a leap in near future else I don't know how long there'll be a human race. Long enough for me anyway but it would be nice if evolution would streak again and change the way people are thinking:alien:

Thank you Tex.

Here's an explanation of what I've heard about the extinction of dinosaurs....
Well, Noah only took two of each animal onto his ark, so that explains the fossils (all the others died)(doesn't explain carbon dating and about a hundred other things). However, once the flood ended, the ground was so soft that all of the dinosaurs couldn't walk (they just sank). Now, considering the majority of pre-historic creatures were small, I don't see why they died as well, but Elephants did not.

Again, I agree with the fact of evolution, and I disbelieve the bible's interpretation of creation....but it did have to all start somewhere.

I believe we all are bred to think in a certain way. I believe that the "ones that rule" twist the way we think. They do this via TV, radio, and newspapers. TV is the worst of all. It has twisted our thinking so much we don't know any better...

IMHO, the Bible is a work of fiction, God and Jesus are figments of our imagination, used to explain something that is unknown to us, like creation, and death. It seems there has to be reason behind just about everything. If we don't understand it then it doesn't exist. We think we know everything, we think we are always right. Well we aren't. We are what we are...

For all we know Aliens created us and we are their experiment. Like I said, TV has twisted our way of thinking so much we don't know what to think other than what "they" tell us...

Call me crazy...

Reaper

You seem to be crazy as posted that all in one post in each topic:bandit: j/k

Originally posted by Bean Bandit
Reaper

You seem to be crazy as posted that all in one post in each topic:bandit: j/k

hehehe, yea I posted it here first, then moved on to the "Is there a Heaven" post. Felt it fit there too...

As for being crazy, yea you could say that :bloated:

Later bud...
:bandit:

i say instead of downing evolution or religion, how about putting them together... i say yes there is evolution but i also say yes to adam and eve cause i believe the bible there is evidence supporting both so what do scientists do when this happens? learn to put them with each other!!

The bible isn't proof of anything.

We do have proof that man has evolved. Look at the skeletons of early man.

If the Adam and Eve story was true, then we are all derived from inbreeding. :D

Yes, we would all be derived from inbreeding, but inbreeding doesn't always have negative consequences. Basically inbreeding increases homozygosity of alleles (in polyploid creatures). So, anywhere A&E both had a single "bad" recessive allele, it is somewhat likely that their offspring would get it as a homozygous recessive.

Personally, I have no problem matching religion to science. I do it mostly because I just feel there has to be some greater power. Not because there is any conclusive evidence of it (that's why it's called "faith"...if there was good evidence, it would be the only choice), but because life is just simply too wondrous to be an accident. However, I simply cannot reconcile the bible with science.

Hey LakeMountLude, did Adam and Eve have belly buttons?

Yeah, that's what I though. The bible doesn't answer that because it's wrong, ignoramous. :rolleyes:

Personally, I could care less what everybody believes, you should believe what you feel like believing and don't diss people that believe something else. There is evidence supporting both creation and evolution, and both have several unexplainable parts to them.

I think the main reason I believe creation is as follows: I have trouble getting my head around believing that we appeared by chance...just look at the amazing complexity of the eye, or brain, or even foot, and how perfectly they all work together.

Anyway, think whatever you want, and I will too.

The complexity of everything came from evolution. We evolved from a blob of hydrogen, carbon, nitrogen and lots of other goodies. I believe i'm from a pile of mush than people just appeared out of nowhere.

If the sun wasn't made until the 4th day, then how would anyone know how long the first 3 days were?!

How would anyone know the sun was made until the 4th day if no one even existed back then?

They wouldn't...
:devil:

It's funny you mention the complexity of the eye, Heep. In my last Biology class we discussed a theoretical way in which an eye could develop. It was a very simple and logical explanation...logical enough that it passed from being just "believable" to being "completely probably, and very likely".

About the how would we know about the days thing which MBTN mentioned, wasn't that supposedly what God told those writing the bible?

They didn't have to have belly-buttons but there kids did! The theory of evolution where "Evolutionists" say that protein buildup in the ocean which eventually led to single-celled organisms has many gaps too. If this is true than while "evolving" the single-celled organisms would have no natural enemy and would actually be able to live without worrying about the radiation from the sun etc. and therefore would not allow a natural enemy to produce itself... your tellin me that in two billion years that DNA just created itself and found ways to adapt and evolve? i dont think so.. nature is obviously "alive" and it is alive cuase it is the creation of god. start believing man.. when doomsday comes you may be left out! oh yeah and why havent we seen alien life when there are trillions of trillions of trillions of galaxies in the universe? i mean hell if evolution were true than ever star capable of supporting planets would have lifeforms adapted to that life correct? where are they? why havent they even tried to make contact?

There is evidence supporting both creation and evolution, and both have several unexplainable parts to them.

But that simply isn't true. Theres no evidence for creation - none whatsoever.

But I agree with your last sentance in that reply. :)

About the how would we know about the days thing which MBTN mentioned, wasn't that supposedly what God told those writing the bible?

Its convenient that God only had contact with people back then isn't it? :D

Can you explain the shroud of Turin? Or how about the evidence of a mass flood at roughly the same time the bible says there was one? Can you explain miracles, you think things happen out of luck? And if religion isn't real why has for the last 2500 years have billions of people worshiped the same god?

Originally posted by LakeMountLude
...your tellin me that in two billion years that DNA just created itself and found ways to adapt and evolve? B]
Well, yes. Except, DNA didn't have to figure out how to change, the change comes from random "mistakes" in reproduction, or from natural selection. We've already listed some examples of that here, if you want some.

Originally posted by LakeMountLude
[B...and why havent we seen alien life when there are trillions of trillions of trillions of galaxies in the universe?...
Well, I would say it's because the planets are just too far away. Even traveling at the speed of light (which is impossible according to the special theory of relativity) it would take 5+ years to get here from the closest star (assuming that star has life).

Also, the facets that went into supposedly making life from chemicals in pools and such had to be just right. Not too incredibly likely that they existed too many other places. But I agree, I think there is other life out there.

i happen to disagree with the dna thing but i guess we will never really know so im not going to argue evolution anymore lol.. but i will argue phsyics and astronomy.. the cloesest star is proxima centauri which is 4.22 light years away.. and the speed of light is bout 186,300 mps (rounded).. so ya ill give ya that.. but any advanced civilization would know quantum physics, time, and the space-time continium, and they would also obviously know that there are such things as wormholes, and although the speed of light is impossibly bein said so by einstein and also time travel being impossibly it is not impossible for you to travel a distance further than light in less amount of time.. mainly through wormholes.. so im sure they would know....

C'mon LakeMountLude, be realistic..

Hypothesis: This was the death shroud of Jesus Christ, and deserves to be worhsipped and seen as proof of the Bible's veracity.
Reality: The Shroud of Turin is a peice of cloth from unknown origin that has stains on it. These stains, when veiwed together and under certain light (or in negative form), appear to form the face of a middle age white man! There are at least 1/2 billion middle age white males living today. Furthermore, Jesus was not white, yet the face that appears on the Shroud is clearly that of a caucasian male. Using this as proof of the Bible would be like finding an artifact from the burial of one of the 1/2 billion middle age men currently on the planet, finding it in say, Los Angeles, and coming to the oh-so logical conclusion that it's proof of my existence and definitely shows the miracles at work surrounding my life. Now of course there were plenty of other people buried here in this time, many of whom would basically fit my description, but that's not important. It's also not important that you didn't actually find it here, or that there is no solid record if it's origins. Fact: April 10 (or 16), 1349: The Hundred Year War had been raging between France and England for over eleven years and the Black Death had just finished ravaging most of Europe when Geoffrey de Charny, a French knight, writes to Pope Clement VI reporting his intention to build a church at Lirey, France. It is said he builds St. Mary of Lirey church to honor the Holy Trinity who answered his prayers for a miraculous escape while a prisoner of the English. He is also already in possession of the Shroud, which some believe he acquired in Constantinople.
So what we should believe here is that an artifact, whose history is filled with a glaring 1300 year gap, whose precise origins are not known and all such attempts to solidify them end in circumstancial evidence, is in fact the face of God incarnate. And how do we know this? Because Geoffrey de Charny said so, and because millions of other people believe him (both then and now). Yes, there are absolutely no holes in that theory :D.

Hypothesis: There must have been a mass flood around 4400 year ago, because it says so in the Bible. Let's go looking for evidence!
Reality: The only solid evidence of flooding at any time in modern history is not global, but centers around the Black Sea. This flood was amazingly destructive, and likely wiped out hundreds to thousands of miles of living coastland (people inhabited much of this). Although I have visited the Creationist sites dedicated to reconciling evidence of the Biblical flood, to proving the Bible's worht through this, I am not convinced. And please understand I approach this from an open mind, as my current belief in macro-evolution has pretty much been removed by Heep's postings of Dr. Hovind's lectures. But evidence for the biblical flood? I don't think so.



"And if religion isn't real why has for the last 2500 years have billions of people worshiped the same god?"

Now there's a solid argument... because everyone else thinks so, it MUST be true! Didn't your mother straighten that kind of thinking out for ya when you were a kid? In fact, a large portion of the world is either Islamic, Hinduist, Eastern Dualist, Pagan, or downright Atheistic. And although your Christian religion takes it's origins from the Old and New Testaments (also know this: your Bible is a creation of the Roman Catholic Church, NOT God),it isn't the oldest or the most common belief system. So who's right? A few billion followers of Islam, a few billion of Christ, a few billion in Vishnu, or Marduk, or maybe it's Mother nature instead? All I know is that last statement proves nothing about what is and what is not.

LakeDude, I didn't say religion wasn't real. All I meant was it's bull shit.

We all pray to the same "god", because the human race needs a scape goat for all the fucked up things they do. "Forgive me, God, for I have lied." Basically, that makes it all better, and people can go on lying, because all they have to is "asl" for forgivness.

Bull shit.

What about Dinosaurs, what about the pebble stuck under my sneaker? That pebble is millions of years old probably.

You still didn't answer my question about the sun being made on the fourth day. With out it, how long could anyone (no one even "existed" back then according to that lying and contradicting book) have know the previous 3 days' lengths?
Perhaps the first day was 25 hours? 25 weeks, 25 months ?25 millions years?

"god" can kiss my ass. See, he doesn't exists because he hasn't done a damn thing to me. Perhaps he forgave me... :rolleyes:


Open your eyes.
:devil:

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by LakeMountLude
[B...and why havent we seen alien life when there are trillions of trillions of trillions of galaxies in the universe?...
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

But we have seen them......:grey:

The flood, if it happened at all, was probably a localised disaster. To the people of the area, without modern communication, it would have seemed to have been a huge catastrophe that engulfed the world. Their world yes - the whole world no.

Where has all the water gone? How did this guy Noah get EVERY animal onto an ark? What about the food that they eat? Koalas only eat fresh eucalyptus leaves - where was the supply of fresh leaves? There are so many flaws its unreal. I know of many off hand, but there are many more than I know where to find listed. I can post them.

The Latin (I think...) word originally used during the first writing of Genesis is the same word as other mentions of the Latin word for day. These other instances show "day" to be 24 hours...also the definition of the Latin word is "a 24 hour period", so I don't beleive that they were 25 million year long days.

Yes, Adam would have to believe God when he said that he made the sun when he said he did, but he'd have to believe God when he said that he even created the sun. If God audibly (and later came down physically in the Garden of Eden) spoke to you, I think you would believe in Him, and that He is telling the truth (He also cannot lie).

So, of course you have to believe in Adam to believe that this is viable...otherwise it will just seem like a bunch of crap.

If you believe creation, the flood is extremely viable. Some water went into the sky (clouds), some into the ground (wells), and the rest rivers and oceans. The ground was still quite yound and soft...plus a year long covering and shifting of water on the earth could and would break down the young earth and create different layers, burying bones from dead animals, etc. Also, if you believe in the Flood, creation makes the most sense as well.

If you don't believe creation, the flood makes absolutely no sense, as it would accelerate the wear and erosion of land so much that it, plus the billions of years before would make the continents much smaller and places like the Grand Canyon would be much bigger.

Anyway, I'm getting tired of fighting this battle, since none of us are ever going to convince the other to believe the same. So, I'm gonna sign off, just occasionally looking back. If you really need anything from me, just ask for me, but otherwise I'm just gonna believe what I believe as if this whole topic never came up.

Really I learned a lot about both creation and evolution...it's been a good experience :D

first of all anyone with a picture of a "firebat" from starcraft on there signiture is obviously young.. so you are probobly (and no offense!) a lil immature and havent experienced religion yet and are a lil rebellious well that or you jsut dont get it.. i think jesus is testin us.. i feel he made the bible to tell us the truth then made evolution to test our faith and his word.. who are we to go against what he says? he made us... well if i was you i would start praying man.. i mean what could it hurt? we all need someone to talk to :)

Yes but Heep, the latin language has nothing to do with this. The way we know a day is by the sun. If "god" didn't make the sun until the 4th day, how would anyone (no one even existed then anyway :rolleyes:) know the length of the previous 3 days? They couldn't, maybe the day was 25 HOURS, or 25 million years, who knows. Certainly not the bible.
There is no explaination, the bible is a joke.



LakeDude, that is absolutely the stupidest response to my statement. I have a picture of a firebat, so what!?!
If you must know, I'm 17.

And BTW, you are not allowed to have sex, because according to the bible, sex is wrong.

Jesus made evolution?! LOL LOL LOL! :D :D :D :rolleyes:
I thought you didn't believe in evolution! That's the funniest thing I've heard in a while. AND you read that folks, he's doing it to test us!!!!! Wow, I hope I pass this test. :rolleyes: You must be joking. So jesus just decided one day to invent evolution, so he could test us.
Then what.
You thoughts and idealogies are about as facticious as the ones inthe bible.

Think about your "god" in times of war when people are being killed. Where is your "god" then.

Please explain dinosaurs.

DID Adam and Eve have belly buttons? I want to know what you think of that question. What's your answer?
:devil:

dude if you would pick up a book and "read" for once then you would see that god said he will not have contact with people "directly" again until his last coming.. if you watch the movie the ten commandments (based on the truth of the exodus and moses) he would send angels down to communicate to people to make things happen the right way.. and before he wiped out all of man kind with the great flood... so that is why people die in wars.... and yes you are allowed to have sex.. it says your not supposed to before marriage.. but again if you would have "read" or "listened" to something important that you would also know that jesus died for our sins.. in other words (for the dumber of the group) he died so everytime we sin it gets put on him when we ask gods forgiveness.. so when we do bad when we ask for forgiveness we are forgave :).. cool huh? well all i can say man is you can rebel all you want, but if you read revelations (that would be the end of the bible) it says that the antichrist, the devil, and all of his followers will be thrown into a humongous lake of burning sulfur.. have fun :) :flipa: :flipa: :flipa: ...

:D Well I'm not sure about the rest of civilization, but I would say that those Pontiac engineers that designed the Aztek evolved from a lower species!

Ok. if evolution is true, what is the thing that knows what's better? Amoeba's don't know that monkeys are better at surviving! Do you just expect to evolve into something good? How do we even know what to 'evolve' into? WE DON'T! what does? well, if anything, it would have to be God. And if you ever decide that I am right and it does have to be God, then you have to realize evolution is just a bunch of make-believe.

If you have no idea what I just said, tell me and I will try and explain it.

And if our earth was billions of years old, it wouldn't BE.

i agree :).. way to put it... evolution was probobly made up by the ancestors of that pontiac aztek :)....

Last words :D

Yes, how long those days were is dependant on whether or not you believe what God says. But it doesn't really matter if they were 25 million year days anyway...there was no sun, and thus nothing for planets to orbit, no heat, no light, evolution on the earth would be quite difficult under those circumstances. Plus, after all that time with no sun, then suddenly having one, anything evolving on earth wouldn't be able to adjust to the new sun right away.

God made sex, and it was good. Within marriage.

No one knows if Adam and Eve had belly buttons. They certainly didn't need them since they didn't have umbilical cords, not being born, but maybe they were created with them. Either way it doesn't matter if they had them or not, everybody else after them did, that's I know.

BTW: The sun was made on the fourth day :)

Oops, forgot some stuff :)

War can be many things...it can be discipline for sins, it can be a way for us to advance, a way to eventually make peace with others, a way to drive us to repentance, even a way to control population. War is all part of God's plan, could you imagine how crowded we'd be without it...and how little advancement we would have made. We might not have had cars if it wasn't for early people coming up with an idea for fast travel to and from war zones. :eek:

I also think that belief in God can be a form of insurance...if you follow God, and evolution is correct, then you lived a moral life and were probly respected by others. If you follow God, and the Bible is correct, then you go to heaven. If you don't follow God, and the Bible is correct, you'll go to hell. According to the Bible, you don't wanna go to hell...it's not a party. You cannot see anything or meet others, all you will hear is gnashing of teeth and screams, and you will be burned with fire. If you start to get used to the fire, it just gets hotter. Forever.

This "insurance" is reason enough for me to accept God's salvation.

LOL, I will go in a puddle of sulphur, and angels came down, and told people what to do!!!!! Why don't they do that anymore?! HAHAH!
BTW, God talked to me today, he said you were an asshole. Where is this puddle of sulphur, who will dip me into it? Jesus christ our lord and savior, it was fun reading about you being nailed to the cross and suffering, I hope you suffer some more! BTW, nailing someones hands would simply rip their hands apart and they would fall, he was actually nailed by the wrists, but you already knew that.
God, you are an asshole!

May he dip me in sulphur.

Haha, you gotta read what you just wrote, and how stupid it looks.

"And if our earth was billions of years old, it wouldn't BE."

Wouldn't be what? Complete that sentence.

I would like to admit that you are wrong. There, I said it, you're wrong. I'll admit I'm right, I have no problem with that.

I accept that fact that you're wrong, leave it at that.

God made the sun, Out of what? Oh wait, I guess he made all that hydrogen too... :rolleyes:

Originally posted by Heep
Oops, forgot some stuff :)

I also think that belief in God can be a form of insurance...if you follow God, and evolution is correct, then you lived a moral life and were probly respected by others. If you follow God, and the Bible is correct, then you go to heaven. If you don't follow God, and the Bible is correct, you'll go to hell. According to the Bible, you don't wanna go to hell...it's not a party. You cannot see anything or meet others, all you will hear is gnashing of teeth and screams, and you will be burned with fire. If you start to get used to the fire, it just gets hotter. Forever.

This "insurance" is reason enough for me to accept God's salvation.

It's interesting that you bring that up Heep, it's called the "hedging your bets theory" for believing in God (or any other deity for that matter). If you guys dig into any philosophy classes in your future higher learning you will probably have to argue this point in class, and it always turns out to be a weak one. The reason is that according to Christianity, acceptance of God's Grace and an understanding that Jesus died for your sins is what gets you into heaven. An acceptance of the truth behind it all. Good deeds (though they certainly can't hurt), and devout worship actually have nothing to do with salvation in the true, God's Judgement sense, and do you really think that anyone who follows his word because they merely want to secure a nice spot for their eternity is going to be judged favorably? That is about as deceitful as it gets when talking about God, because at it's core it's a pure lie and an effort to fool the Creator into thinking you accepted his Word for it's truth. There's a big paradox in there, and you can be damn sure God isn't looking at those folks with a smile on his face. How dare someone feign to follow his teachings, to accept his Grace, just so they can be rewarded in the future! Any true Christian, any true believer, anyone who has the slightest idea of what it means to believe should HATE this concept, not embrace it.

Actually stupid if you hadn't smoked your self retarded with all the drugs you have done (which is apparant).. then you would know that there still are crucifixions today! people really do nail themselves through there hands etc... and well the bible talks about people like you.. your a type of antichrist... haha unfortunately in a terrible disguise.. all i can say is we'll pray for you... ohh yeah and learn to spell sulfur!! and you talk like you know what the sun is made of! you dont even begin to know how the sun works or anything, i dont know anyone else who coulda made it besides god.. and you posted a lil pic of a devil, and in the bible the devil used to be an angel (lucifer), so if you believe in the devil and whatever, well then you believe in the bible and not evolution...

please everyone calm down, discussion is one thing, argument is another. This forum is for discussion, not argument. If you can't speak nicely toward one another, put a cork in it!

texan, thank you! I'm tired of seeing pointless fights...in this case there's a fighter for both sides, so I'll say this...you are just making yourself look extremely desperate, like you've run out of thoughtful things to discuss, so you'll just start yelling. No offense intended, but grow up.

And if our earth was billions of years old, it wouldn't BE.
I would like this explained...I don't understand it either.

About "insurance"...I'm not a big fan of the concept. I just think that it's a reasonable reason to accept Christ, and if one does, they will most likely end up coming closer to God anyway. God certainly doesn't smile upon Christians that don't really follow him and disobey, etc., but He will forgive.

MBTN, maybe you're right, and there's nothing to worry about. But if I'm right, you just completely screwed yourself...I feel sorry for you.

BTW...I didn't mention angels, I don't think....

LakeDud, you are so wrong, it's laughable. OK, I spelled sulfur wrong (the devil made me do it you know), perhaps the devil made you use incorect punctuation and not even capitalize the first letter of the first words of each sentence.

I will openly admit that you are wrong. Yup, I will admit I'm right, leave it at that. You don't have an argument, so you're wrong, and you will always be wrong.

I have finally concluded that you are wrong.

:devil:

PS
Go ahead and pray, pray that I die tomorrow, if everyone in the world prayed that I would die tomorrow, it wouldn't happen. I used to be exactly like you, blind and ignorant about the truth. I remember when I was young and going to church school (or whatever you want to call it), I remember I asked about dinosaurs, and my teacher told me to leave the class. These wonderful people of "god" didn't answer my question and just ignored what I had said.
I used to be like you, blind and ignorant.

naw man... im tellin ya.. god smiles upon pretty much everyone... you are his creations... his sons and daughters... i can put a lot of evidence toward christianity but i just get mad at lil punks who down god.. well to tell you the truth i cant get mad but instead i just feel sorry for them cause more than likely they werent brought up around christianity and didnt get a chance to learn bout god.. i understand the evolution thing totally... i am a science and math major so i see the evidence.. but hey if you have time pick a spot in the new testament and just read.. it is very interesting..

I am the creation of my father and mother, not some non existant scape goat for the human race.

I enjoy fictional stories, are those testament things any good?

PS
Yes, the sun IS made of hydrogen. It's a big ball of nuclear fusion.

Originally posted by LakeMountLude
And if religion isn't real why has for the last 2500 years have billions of people worshiped the same god?

I'd suggest reading "The rise of Christianity" by Robert Stark. It explains it using mathematics and logic. And, in it it says that Mormonism is growing at the same rate as christianity did in it's early years. hmmmmm

first of all, do you believe in God? Not trying to be gooshy-gooshy and like a FrEaK... but,,... you should really think of what is going to happen to us... what is our destiny?

I believe in God.

yes i know the sun is made of hydrogen.. if your works like a nuclear bomb.. well it is one big nuclear bomb... hydrogen's kinetic energy is increased by the heat causing it to move faster and eventually smash together causing a chain reaction which is continuous for billions of years.. in fact the sun is supposed to have about 98% of its fuel left says some physicists... if you dont believe in god who do you think made the universe and hydrogen, and carbon etc?? oh wait you think that a single molecule just happened to expand into todays universe?? oh and wait you probobly also believe that there will be an eventual collapse too right?? well believe whatcha want but when god comes down i want to see the look on ya face cause lakemountlude will be the first person you think about :)... now dont get me wrong though cause there is all evidence of some of this stuff but you have to remember i still believe in the deist theory that god created to the universe then created quantum laws and physical laws that govern that universe, then set it free and let it play out as it does! that is a way of combining both theories!

Originally posted by LakeMountLude
... if you dont believe in god who do you think made the universe and hydrogen, and carbon etc??
Precisely why I am a christian. I believe in the big bang, but all that matter came from somewhere. You simply can't have the law of conservation of mass and also have all the universe' matter created somewhere in history without having something "supernatural" occur...this is where the watchmaker (IMO) comes in.Originally posted by LakeMountLude
oh wait you think that a single molecule just happened to expand into todays universe?? oh and wait you probobly also believe that there will be an eventual collapse too right?? Yep.Originally posted by LakeMountLude
well believe whatcha want but when god comes down i want to see the look on ya face cause lakemountlude will be the first person you think about :)...
I'm sorry. This sort of attitude just gets to me. I hear so many people prove their piety through their fear of hell. But, judging by the smiley face I'm guessing that you're just kidding around.:rolleyes:

Originally posted by Adam
Ok. if evolution is true, what is the thing that knows what's better? Amoeba's don't know that monkeys are better at surviving! Do you just expect to evolve into something good? How do we even know what to 'evolve' into? WE DON'T! what does? well, if anything, it would have to be God. And if you ever decide that I am right and it does have to be God, then you have to realize evolution is just a bunch of make-believe.

Well, the creature doesn't know what's better. Mutations occur randomly. If said mutation or perhaps the creatures phenotype causes it to have a better chance of survival, such individuals will slowly increase in frequency in the population.

Hahaha! god will come down and I will think of you! LOL!
You're probably the kind of person that thinks god makes it rain, thunder, and makes lightning strike. You are also probably the kind of person who thinks we are the only life and the center of the universe. :rolleyes:

Until I find where it says in the bible about dinosaurs/fossils that are millions of years old, everything to do with religion is bullshit.

What is our destiny? Our destiny is to destroy ourselves, it's in our nature to do so.

I'll admit it again, you're wrong.
I know I'm right, so leave it be.

:devil:

first of all i was jokin bout you thinkin of me but i do think that people should sometimes try and believe in something.. i know you believe in evolution but something created those molecules.. whether you think it was buddah, allah, god, a golden cow or whatever.. the law of conservation of mass is a good point... but another thing maybe the eventual collapse has already happened and maybe the big bang has worked all over again? who knows.. no one.. unless they find a way to look back in time :rolleyes: then no one will really no for 'sure'....

Well yes, that's a touchy subject. The universe is quite perplex, and so is time. When did time start? Did it ever start? It had to start sometime, or maybe it doesn't even exist, maybe we don't exist(!?)

Again, what is the universe? Hell it could be some sort of freaky Matrix movie type-thing!

Until I find where it says in the bible about dinosaurs/fossils that are millions of years old, everything to do with religion is bullshit.

When the bible was written, man didn't know about fossils. Dinosaurs were yet to be discovered.

Originally posted by enzo@af

I'm sorry. This sort of attitude just gets to me. I hear so many people prove their piety through their fear of hell. But, judging by the smiley face I'm guessing that you're just kidding around.:rolleyes:

yeah that bugs me too, but at least there is a smiley

--be carefull who you listen to, not all ppl who say they believe in God & Salvation, etc., are sincere and maybe they will make us look awfull, or sometimes ppl (including me) just forget sometimes about other what other ppl think:(

Originally posted by Lizard King@af


When the bible was written, man didn't know about fossils. Dinosaurs were yet to be discovered.

The Bible actually does mention dinosaurs...read Job 40:15 to 41:34

First is "Behemoth", which has a striking resemblance to a brontosaurus (or some other similar huge plant eating dino), and "Leviathan", which seems very much to be a dragon...or maybe even loch ness monster....

While talking about leviathan, it also mentions peoples attempt to kill it with spears, etc. I believe humans and dinos co-existed, and even fought each other. Since the word "dinosaur" came about in the 1800's, earlier peoples used a different word, which I believe was "dragon". There are a very large number of evidences for the existence of dragons, and all show them to be co-existing, while not usually peacefully with humans.


Carbon dating:
Lots of people have been mentioning this...I'll try to explainit's faults as best I can. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Basically, the sun changes nitrogen into radioactive carbon 14. Plants breathe in some of this carbon 14, animals and mammals eat the plants, therefore, basically everything contains C14. When you die, you stop taking in new C14, therefore, you can compare the amount in the body to the amount in the atmosphere. On average, C14 has a half life of 5730 years (half the amount of C14 decays in 5730 years, then half of that in another 5730 years, etc.).

Now...equilibrium. If I try to fill a bucket with a couple holes at the bottom, it will leak out. As I add more, more will leak out. Eventually I will reach the point where my filling rate is identical to the leaking rate, so the water level stays the same. This is equilibrium. The same happens with C14...the sun produces it at one rate, it decays at one rate. It has been calculated by evolutionist scientists that a brand new earth would take about 30,000 years to reach equilibrium. Atmosphere C14 levels were recorded in the early 1950's, then re recorded with the same method quite recently, and the level had increased. In other words, equilibrium has not yet been achieved; the world is less than 30,000 years old. This also means that plants are taking in more C14 every year. Today, you're going to get about 16 clicks per minute per gram on your Geiger counter...if you waited 5730 years, you would get 8 clicks per minute, if you waited another 5730, you would get 4 clicks per minute C14. You would say that plant or animal is 5730 + 5730 = 11460 years old. So, before the flood (~5730 years, lets say), plants may have only been taking in 4 clicks per minute while alive. We dig them up today, they have 2 clicks per minute, we say they are ~17000 years old, basing that 2 on the 16 we now take in. But if you base it on the 4 they used to take in, that plant actually only lost half of its C14...it's 5370 years old.

Also, I'd like some answers to a couple questions. I've asked evolutionists these for years and never gotten a real answer. Let's see what you think.

Where did the "speck of matter" come from?
Why did it explode?
How did they get all the water and other mostly incommpressible substanses into the dot?

The world is less than 30k years old? I don't think so. That would mean the dinosaurs fell from outer space, and all those rocks in my back yard ALL fell from outer space. :rolleyes:

And about man and dino co-existing is ludicrous. That would mean we should find human skeletons as easy as finding dinosaur bones. But there are no human fossils as old as the dino fossils.
Did you watch "Denver the Last Dinosaus" as a child or something?

The bible is wrong either way about the earth. Correct me if I'm wrong, but according to it, the earth is about 5000 years old (Like I said, I don't know the exact number). By your definition, it's 30k years old (which is still wrong), so now you are just contradicting your beliefs, proving to me that you are fickle and weak.

I'll admit it, you're wrong.

Originally posted by MBTN
The world is less than 30k years old? I don't think so. That would mean the dinosaurs fell from outer space, and all those rocks in my back yard ALL fell from outer space. :rolleyes:

You believe this...that dot of matter came from, or, correction, was outer space. The rocks in your backyard might have come from a meteor, and dinos came from the same place as humans


And about man and dino co-existing is ludicrous. That would mean we should find human skeletons as easy as finding dinosaur bones. But there are no human fossils as old as the dino fossils.
Did you watch "Denver the Last Dinosaus" as a child or something?

You do find them...other humans put them in graveyards, dinos don't. I believe dinos were probly more numerous than humans at the time of the flood (which I use to explain fossils), so there are more dino fossils than human ones...also many human fossils are also found, it's just that they are no where near as published since we're already quite familiar with humans.


The bible is wrong either way about the earth. Correct me if I'm wrong, but according to it, the earth is about 5000 years old (Like I said, I don't know the exact number). By your definition, it's 30k years old (which is still wrong), so now you are just contradicting your beliefs, proving to me that you are fickle and weak.

I'll admit it, you're wrong.


6000 years...close. But I said that 30000 is the maximum it could be, not what it is. We still haven't reached equilibrium, in fact, I believe it's still about 24000 years away, according to the 30000 year calculation.

Yes, basically C14 is always in us, and is in a pretty standard amount in each creature, be it cat, dog, human, or brachiosaurus. When the creature dies, no more C14 is taken in, and it starts to decay. We measure the remaining bit and calculate how many half-lives have elapsed. Of course, as less and less remains, the range of years gets greater and greater....you have a range of millions of years, in some cases.

Carbon dating is what we use to estimate the age of the dinosaurs, human remains, and other prehistoric creatures.

You know, Heep, I can't explain where the first bit of anything came from. That's precisely why I know God exists. Yet, on the flip side, IMO it is all but obvious to accept evolution. There is just too much strong evidence in support of it and too little not so strong evidence against it. But, who am I to say which is right? :sun:

No where near as published? I'm sure if a 65 MILLION year old human skeleton was found, it would be a big deal, but none will ever be found, because homo sapien is not that old. The dinosaurs are over 65 millions years old or so, and that has been proven many times. How could a 65 million year old dinosaur be put into Noahs "ark", which is 3k or whatever years old. To say that dinosaurs were put into this persons ark is bull shit, and you know it. Second of all, how come noahs ark hasn't been found? If we can find 65 millions year old dinosaur fossils, then surely we can find an this HUGE ark that fit 2 of every creature, that's not even 10k years old. But yet it hasn't been found. Why not?

And you STILL haven't explained why dinosaurs are over 65 million years old.

Yes, yes... there is a conflict in you now...

Even if scientists do find "65 million year old" humans, they probably wouldn't tell you, because then they would either have to throw out all they've worked for (evolution), or add another 10 billion years to the theory.

Noah only took babies on the ark. Smaller size, eat less, live longer after to produce more offspring. Plus, I believe he only took, for example, two dogs on the ark. All the different breeds of dogs adapted into all the different breeds we see today. Same with other animals. Apparently the ark has been found several times...search for "Noah's Ark findings" or something on a search engine. Only a couple sightings have been documented, that is why there is controversy as to why it exists. However, I have yet to see any documented findings of missing links or other such evolution "proof".

I did explain why there are "65 million year old" dinos...re-read the last part of the whole carbon dating thing...it is extremely unreliable because of the increasing amount of C14...your 65M yo dino may only be 6000 yo.